New Defender in the Wild
Discussion
Coin Slot. said:
Andeh1 said:
Aaaah this thread should follow a predictable path from those frothy at the gills over the AUDACITY of Land Rover to follow the regulations, crash safety, aerodynamics, ergonomics, weight reduction, pedestrian impact, Thatcham, comfort, corporate styling, sales & market desires BECAUSE THE FARMERS & ENTHUSIASTS want a 20p ladder chassis'd tonka truck from the 80s. 
I'm amazed one of the 'one life, live it' brigade haven't jumped on this thread yet, 'I'd rather stick with my 110 so I can fix it with a hammer at weekends' etc.Edited by Andeh1 on Monday 20th January 21:15
No. I geddit, they are fundamentally different vehicles, and much as I love my old 110, clearly it will be nowhere near as safe, economical, comfortable or practical as the new one.
I guess my concern is it's just so much money, and will it really handle the rough stuff with so much dependence on electronics? Face it...JLR have a pretty awful reputation here, and I speak from experience. The OH's old Evoque had infotainment gremlins, and when we had a brand new FFRR L405 as a courtesy car whilst her new Velar was in for warranty work recently, the memory seats did not work on the drivers side. On a brand new £95k car. So that's why, bearing in mind I have plans for a proper overland trip one day, I'll do it in my old TDi Defender without an ECU in sight rather than upgrading to a TD5/Puma. Although, if JLR has managed to sort it's lack of prowess with electrics, the new Defender could be a real turn around point for them...but they really need to get this right as there is a lot at stake.
I've not seen one in the flesh yet but I'm not convinced about the styling yet, the proportions look all wrong to me. I can't understand how the company that came up with the L405 and the stunning Velar (and very tidy new Evoque) also came up with the back end of the D5 and the side view of the new Defender. Both look absolutely great from the front, but it all goes wrong as you walk down the car. I just really really wish the design team had done more of a Jimny/G-Wagen/911 job...a subtle update of the older model, not a clean sheet job.
I'm sure it's a stunning thing to drive though and I genuinely wish it the best of luck and sales. I am heading to Eastnor at some point for the experience day that came with the Velar...obviously the OH wants to see what her car is capable of, but I'd love to persuade her to try the Defender instead!
That said...Ineos Grenadier...very interesting!
Hard-Drive said:
Well...as you asked...
No. I geddit, they are fundamentally different vehicles, and much as I love my old 110, clearly it will be nowhere near as safe, economical, comfortable or practical as the new one.
I guess my concern is it's just so much money, and will it really handle the rough stuff with so much dependence on electronics? Face it...JLR have a pretty awful reputation here, and I speak from experience. The OH's old Evoque had infotainment gremlins, and when we had a brand new FFRR L405 as a courtesy car whilst her new Velar was in for warranty work recently, the memory seats did not work on the drivers side. On a brand new £95k car. So that's why, bearing in mind I have plans for a proper overland trip one day, I'll do it in my old TDi Defender without an ECU in sight rather than upgrading to a TD5/Puma. Although, if JLR has managed to sort it's lack of prowess with electrics, the new Defender could be a real turn around point for them...but they really need to get this right as there is a lot at stake.
I've not seen one in the flesh yet but I'm not convinced about the styling yet, the proportions look all wrong to me. I can't understand how the company that came up with the L405 and the stunning Velar (and very tidy new Evoque) also came up with the back end of the D5 and the side view of the new Defender. Both look absolutely great from the front, but it all goes wrong as you walk down the car. I just really really wish the design team had done more of a Jimny/G-Wagen/911 job...a subtle update of the older model, not a clean sheet job.
I'm sure it's a stunning thing to drive though and I genuinely wish it the best of luck and sales. I am heading to Eastnor at some point for the experience day that came with the Velar...obviously the OH wants to see what her car is capable of, but I'd love to persuade her to try the Defender instead!
That said...Ineos Grenadier...very interesting!
It looks awesome side on!No. I geddit, they are fundamentally different vehicles, and much as I love my old 110, clearly it will be nowhere near as safe, economical, comfortable or practical as the new one.
I guess my concern is it's just so much money, and will it really handle the rough stuff with so much dependence on electronics? Face it...JLR have a pretty awful reputation here, and I speak from experience. The OH's old Evoque had infotainment gremlins, and when we had a brand new FFRR L405 as a courtesy car whilst her new Velar was in for warranty work recently, the memory seats did not work on the drivers side. On a brand new £95k car. So that's why, bearing in mind I have plans for a proper overland trip one day, I'll do it in my old TDi Defender without an ECU in sight rather than upgrading to a TD5/Puma. Although, if JLR has managed to sort it's lack of prowess with electrics, the new Defender could be a real turn around point for them...but they really need to get this right as there is a lot at stake.
I've not seen one in the flesh yet but I'm not convinced about the styling yet, the proportions look all wrong to me. I can't understand how the company that came up with the L405 and the stunning Velar (and very tidy new Evoque) also came up with the back end of the D5 and the side view of the new Defender. Both look absolutely great from the front, but it all goes wrong as you walk down the car. I just really really wish the design team had done more of a Jimny/G-Wagen/911 job...a subtle update of the older model, not a clean sheet job.
I'm sure it's a stunning thing to drive though and I genuinely wish it the best of luck and sales. I am heading to Eastnor at some point for the experience day that came with the Velar...obviously the OH wants to see what her car is capable of, but I'd love to persuade her to try the Defender instead!
That said...Ineos Grenadier...very interesting!
Just been to Land Rover Luxembourg. It's time for the annual car festival, pretty much when many buy new cars as the deals are so good.... €110k RRS for €82k, 5.0 FFRR for €90k, etc.
Anyway, they've a highly specced new Defender 110 in the showroom, a petrol one - €108k!
It looked great, but €108k great??
I had no idea they'd be quite so expensive.
Anyway, they've a highly specced new Defender 110 in the showroom, a petrol one - €108k!
It looked great, but €108k great??
I had no idea they'd be quite so expensive.
RC1807 said:
Just been to Land Rover Luxembourg. It's time for the annual car festival, pretty much when many buy new cars as the deals are so good.... €110k RRS for €82k, 5.0 FFRR for €90k, etc.
Anyway, they've a highly specced new Defender 110 in the showroom, a petrol one - €108k!
It looked great, but €108k great??
I had no idea they'd be quite so expensive.
First cars are 110 only and most will be First Edition. The ones we've sold so far have been in the US$ 70-85k range. Eventually it will go down into the $ 50's.Anyway, they've a highly specced new Defender 110 in the showroom, a petrol one - €108k!
It looked great, but €108k great??
I had no idea they'd be quite so expensive.
unrepentant said:
First cars are 110 only and most will be First Edition. The ones we've sold so far have been in the US$ 70-85k range. Eventually it will go down into the $ 50's.
Sure, but €108k is $120k, so $35-50k difference, meaning the local cost equivalent is a Defender 110 + a Mustang! 
RC1807 said:
unrepentant said:
First cars are 110 only and most will be First Edition. The ones we've sold so far have been in the US$ 70-85k range. Eventually it will go down into the $ 50's.
Sure, but €108k is $120k, so $35-50k difference, meaning the local cost equivalent is a Defender 110 + a Mustang! unrepentant said:
Doesn't make any sense. A defender 110 First Edition in the UK starts at 58,860 pounds, add 10k for extras and you're under 70k pounds including tax which is equivalent to $91k which, with tax, is pretty much what they are selling for here. According to Land Rover Luxembourg's website a First Edition starts at 73,681 euros. I jammed one out with a P400 engine, 22's and most of the options and I came out at 90,775 euros so where does your 108k come from?
I'm struggling to get to €108k as well. Best I can do is €99,956 with this configuration https://build.landrover/EC13A87ANot sure how the tax regime works in Luxembourg, so perhaps this is added to the bill?
Now, if you were to spec a Defender X (diesel only in Luxembourg) you could get to €121,746....! https://build.landrover/A80C07D0
595Heaven said:
Now, if you were to spec a Defender X (diesel only in Luxembourg) you could get to €121,746....! https://build.landrover/A80C07D0
Model X not available yet (at least not in the USA).I've just seen another video of the new 110 off road, going over some large concrete humps. It just seems to have very little axle articulation at all.
Now I'm not a hater, I hope the new car does very well, however this new style of off roading, where traction seems to be maintained by braking spinning wheels rather then keeping them in contact with the ground, seems a bit dodgy to me. All the videos I've seen kinda show that the vehicle would have the ability to drive itself into a situation where it gets to a balance point, waving wheels in the air, and then comes crashing down onto a rock or similar, potentially causing a lot of damage or getting really stuck. A beam axle vehicle would protect itself better by staying more in contact with the ground.
Now I'm not a hater, I hope the new car does very well, however this new style of off roading, where traction seems to be maintained by braking spinning wheels rather then keeping them in contact with the ground, seems a bit dodgy to me. All the videos I've seen kinda show that the vehicle would have the ability to drive itself into a situation where it gets to a balance point, waving wheels in the air, and then comes crashing down onto a rock or similar, potentially causing a lot of damage or getting really stuck. A beam axle vehicle would protect itself better by staying more in contact with the ground.
Hard-Drive said:
I've just seen another video of the new 110 off road, going over some large concrete humps. It just seems to have very little axle articulation at all.
Now I'm not a hater, I hope the new car does very well, however this new style of off roading, where traction seems to be maintained by braking spinning wheels rather then keeping them in contact with the ground, seems a bit dodgy to me. All the videos I've seen kinda show that the vehicle would have the ability to drive itself into a situation where it gets to a balance point, waving wheels in the air, and then comes crashing down onto a rock or similar, potentially causing a lot of damage or getting really stuck. A beam axle vehicle would protect itself better by staying more in contact with the ground.
Think I've seen that video too. As this vehicle doesn't use old fashioned axles you get this appearance. For a modern standard production vehicle it has pretty massive wheel articulation for a multi-link suspension setup, certainly enough to get over some fancy offroad courses if that's your primary use case. I think we can all agree beam axle's were never going to be an option for this car; the negative NVH attributes they introduce is just shocking as you've got a huge lump of metal wobbling around ruining literally everything JLR would be shooting for in terms of comfort, response, cabin noise etc.Now I'm not a hater, I hope the new car does very well, however this new style of off roading, where traction seems to be maintained by braking spinning wheels rather then keeping them in contact with the ground, seems a bit dodgy to me. All the videos I've seen kinda show that the vehicle would have the ability to drive itself into a situation where it gets to a balance point, waving wheels in the air, and then comes crashing down onto a rock or similar, potentially causing a lot of damage or getting really stuck. A beam axle vehicle would protect itself better by staying more in contact with the ground.
As for wheel braking, i'm pretty sure land rover use proper electronic locking diff's as per their Range Rover's which are well known for outperforming just about everything. I go to various country shows and invariable end up in a slick field getting towed out by one of these; if they relied on wheel braking they would be as stuck as the X5's they tow out.
unrepentant said:
Doesn't make any sense. A defender 110 First Edition in the UK starts at 58,860 pounds, add 10k for extras and you're under 70k pounds including tax which is equivalent to $91k which, with tax, is pretty much what they are selling for here. According to Land Rover Luxembourg's website a First Edition starts at 73,681 euros. I jammed one out with a P400 engine, 22's and most of the options and I came out at 90,775 euros so where does your 108k come from?
€108k was the dealer sticker price.I had a poke around the 110 they had at the Chicago Auto show this past week. I liked it. Seemed like a decent vehicle.
Although the 3rd row seats are literally useless, even for a 4 year old. I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a ridiculous attempt at a third row. Additionally, when it’s up, cargo bay was just about big enough to carry a briefcase. That’s a big miss on the practicality front.
Rest of it was good, and the 2nd row seats seemed to have plenty of space which is good.
Regards engine choices (US at least) the P300 turbo 4 certainly on paper seems more than adequate, and the P400 is definite overkill for the type of vehicle. How was the driving experience between the two versions? Is the (considerable) extra cost for the 6-cyl worth it over the 4-cyl?
Although the 3rd row seats are literally useless, even for a 4 year old. I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a ridiculous attempt at a third row. Additionally, when it’s up, cargo bay was just about big enough to carry a briefcase. That’s a big miss on the practicality front.
Rest of it was good, and the 2nd row seats seemed to have plenty of space which is good.
Regards engine choices (US at least) the P300 turbo 4 certainly on paper seems more than adequate, and the P400 is definite overkill for the type of vehicle. How was the driving experience between the two versions? Is the (considerable) extra cost for the 6-cyl worth it over the 4-cyl?
I saw one parked up in Woodstock last week. I'm pretty sure I took photos so i'll have a dig around on the memory card. Not sure I've seen enough to form an opinion yet, really. It certainly won't appeal to old Defender fans an anyone wanting a workhorse type vehicle. But there are plenty of 4x4 pickups around for slinging sheep and hay bales into if you want that sort of thing.
Not for me, probably. No matter how good it is, I'm just not "into" the modern 4x4 SUV look. Whereas I'd have a Series III Airportable in a heartbeat, even though they're a bit rubbish...
Not for me, probably. No matter how good it is, I'm just not "into" the modern 4x4 SUV look. Whereas I'd have a Series III Airportable in a heartbeat, even though they're a bit rubbish...
yellowjack said:
It certainly won't appeal to old Defender fans an anyone wanting a workhorse type vehicle...
Sorry, I disagree with your sweeping statement. I picked up my new Defender yesterday (see thread in Reader’s Cars) and it appeals to me greatly 
I’ve had two old Defenders and this is well worthy of the name.
595Heaven said:
yellowjack said:
It certainly won't appeal to old Defender fans an anyone wanting a workhorse type vehicle...
Sorry, I disagree with your sweeping statement. I picked up my new Defender yesterday (see thread in Reader’s Cars) and it appeals to me greatly I’ve had two old Defenders and this is well worthy of the name.
But...I still don't "get" what it's trying to be. I really like the interior, and I have no doubt that it's supremely capable off road and probably a better drive in pretty much every singly respect than the old vehicle, assuming that all of the electrics and electronics actually keep working.
But for me it's still just an absolute mish mash of styling that does not work on a "proper" off road vehicle. The old Defender had easily replaceable wheel arches for reason on the widest point of the car. Why does a Defender need the Range Rover square LED rear lights? The Jimny, G-Wagen, FJ Cruiser and Jeep Rubicon all have styling that borrows heavily on previous designs and heritage but the new Defender just looks awkward.
I just cannot understand why, when the old Defender has reached peak "cool" (check out all the promotional vehicles, the James Bond placing, all the fashion/lifestyle adverts featuring Defenders, the Fat Face clothing range, the Top Gear best car ever award, the fact that seaside or garden centre gift shops seem to sell trinkets featuring either VW Campers or Land Rover Defenders, and all the aftermarket Twisteds, HHHs of this world), that Gerry McGovern has thrown the baby out with the bathwater and chucked away the loveable, dependable "coolness" of the vehicle and not done a much more sympathetic update.
Also, in 2020 the old Defender seems immune from any climate change negativity or Chelsea Tractor/school run mum stereotyping. Probably because when even the most ardent climate sympathiser sees a Defender they know that it's quite possibly been up lambing all night, launching lifeboats, delivering meals to pensioners in the snow, keeping our nation safe, and besides it's quite hard to get all anti-consumerist about something that's probably 25 years old and still going strong, regardless of what's coming out of it's exhaust pipe. And again, this whole immunity has also just been thrown away, and I think the new one will date very badly to be honest.
595Heaven said:
yellowjack said:
It certainly won't appeal to old Defender fans an anyone wanting a workhorse type vehicle...
Sorry, I disagree with your sweeping statement. I picked up my new Defender yesterday (see thread in Reader’s Cars) and it appeals to me greatly I’ve had two old Defenders and this is well worthy of the name.
Andeh1 said:
Aaaah this thread should follow a predictable path from those frothy at the gills over the AUDACITY of Land Rover to follow the regulations, crash safety, aerodynamics, ergonomics, weight reduction, pedestrian impact, Thatcham, comfort, corporate styling, sales & market desires BECAUSE THE FARMERS & ENTHUSIASTS want a 20p ladder chassis'd tonka truck from the 80s.
Looks great, will be market leader off road, ace on road, eminently practical for the family, premium and stand out from the usual mundane German uber-SUVs. Not sure I like the interior styling though, dashboard is a too basic & clunky for me, vs d5...
Edit:
I do echo the thoughts about the overlap with the d5, I hope their internal teams did the math. I guess one is more mature family vehicle vs younger/adventure family styling?
Classic, just what I feel about the reaction to an amazing update!😀Looks great, will be market leader off road, ace on road, eminently practical for the family, premium and stand out from the usual mundane German uber-SUVs. Not sure I like the interior styling though, dashboard is a too basic & clunky for me, vs d5...
Edit:
I do echo the thoughts about the overlap with the d5, I hope their internal teams did the math. I guess one is more mature family vehicle vs younger/adventure family styling?
Edited by Andeh1 on Monday 20th January 21:15
Great post still chuckling
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