New Defender stops production

[warch]

Bullet-Proof_Biscuit said:

LR is no good any more and it's their own fault, they're running on pure nostalgia these days - Never ends well

I’m not sure what your point is here. As you yourself pointed out the Bronco is quite an old fashioned body on frame design, quite clearly apeing the appearance of the original Bronco truck. The new Defender is a modern design in all respects and has very little visual resemblance to it’s illustrious forebears.

The only nostalgia they seem to be evoking is for cars with niggling electrical faults like the 90s Range Rover.

[swisstoni]

If anything LR are running on bling.
Mud plugging couldn’t be further from most buyer’s intentions I wouldn’t have thought.

[warch]

Most off road capable vehicles spend very little time off road, even those used for work. The Bronco is every bit as much a show pony any of those One Life Live It land rovers no serious off road vehicle needs 35 inch tyres, or massive suspension lifts it’s all about the image.

I think the new Defender is quite a restrained sophisticated looking vehicle by comparison and good enough to any off road work it will be required to do.

[300bhp/ton]

swisstoni said:

If anything LR are running on bling.
Mud plugging couldn’t be further from most buyer’s intentions I wouldn’t have thought.

Which country? The relatively small UK market maybe. Globally I think you are much mistaken.

[300bhp/ton]

warch said:

Most off road capable vehicles spend very little time off road, even those used for work. The Bronco is every bit as much a show pony any of those One Life Live It land rovers no serious off road vehicle needs 35 inch tyres, or massive suspension lifts it’s all about the image.

I think the new Defender is quite a restrained sophisticated looking vehicle by comparison and good enough to any off road work it will be required to do.

I can't agree on any of your points.

Lots of leisure vehicles are used off road, just not so often in the UK. But the UK doesn't typify other global markets.

As for tyres and lifts. Depends on what off roading you are doing really.

[camel_landy]

300bhp/ton said:

Lots of leisure vehicles are used off road, just not so often in the UK. But the UK doesn't typify other global markets.

+1

M

[Cold]

Coin-Slot said:

Squadrone Rosso said:

TFL in the US (on YouTube) aren’t having any luck with their Defender. Bought with their own money as a long termer, now awaiting car number 3.

Read the thread start to finish.

What's telling is that those who attempt to criticise the Defender's reliability only seem to have this one case to draw upon for use as an example. There aren't endless tales of things breaking, falling off or simply being crap. So this one incident gets repeated again and again.

[warch]

300bhp/ton said:

Lots of leisure vehicles are used off road, just not so often in the UK. But the UK doesn't typify other global markets.

The Ford Bronco is every bit the lifestyle off road vehicle, just like the vast majority of 4x4s on the road. Hence why they are usually spotless and tellingly fitted with road biases tyres.

Btw I much prefer 7.50 tyres for my land rover but I’m going for functionality over appearance.

[Hugo Stiglitz]

300bhp/ton said:

bucks said:

Size comparison between the Defender and the Bronco

https://twitter.com/DougDeMuro/status/133059163066...

Interesting pictures. Love the colour of the Ford!!!

However, that is a Bronco Sport. Not a Bronco

Whats the price difference?

Is the Bronco reliable?

[300bhp/ton]

Hugo Stiglitz said:

Whats the price difference?

Is the Bronco reliable?

The Bronco is not in production yet. However I suspect it is fair to say that it will be extremely reliable, as are nearly all Ford mass market products sold in the USA. The Bronco shares many items with other Ford vehicles, which are all well proven.

Bronco Sport starts at $26,600 and the Bronco from $28,500

I've not tried pricing the Sport up, but suspect there is a limitation to what you can spec it too.

The Bronco on the other hand is very open ended. You can get a good basic off road spec for probably $32k I specced a decent setup for $38k and an ultimate (for me) for $48k. Although you can certainly spec them higher if you so wish.

e.g. from the Bronco thread:

300bhp/ton said:

How friggin awesome does this look!!!!







This would be my ideal spec.... but ideal as in I wouldn't even want or need to do anything in the after market with it.

310hp

Nice interior

Well specced.

And look at it!!! OMG

Looks like a lifted modded rig. But it's all factory stock rolling on 35" mud terrains. Front/rear lockers, HD bumper, extra lights, rock rails. All the things you'd normally need to add after market.

Not sure if I could get the same'ish spec another way. This is a Big Bend with some select options. Which is one model up from Base spec.

Total is $48k


All I need now is some money.....

The Defender on the other hand, is claimed to start at $46,100 in the USA. However if the pricing is similar to the UK, you'd need to add 6-10k on top to get a worth while spec to buy or one with the proper off road bits. But you could quite easily spec one to $70-80k too without much bother.


So there is some overlap.


The big difference is, the Bronco can come with all 'aftermarket' bits already fitted and completely off road ready (or trail ready as they would say in America). The Defender would still be lacking stuff you'd want to add, such as decent tyres and real body protection and you can't even option a front diff locker. And the Defender is less powerful and slower too!

[300bhp/ton]

warch said:

The Ford Bronco is every bit the lifestyle off road vehicle, just like the vast majority of 4x4s on the road. Hence why they are usually spotless and tellingly fitted with road biases tyres.

Btw I much prefer 7.50 tyres for my land rover but I’m going for functionality over appearance.

I suspect a great many will venture off road. What this translates too in percentage wise, I have no idea.

But Ford est 200,000 units a year. I don't think it is unreasonable to say 10% will go off road (aka 90% won't). Although I suspect the figure could be MUCH higher. As the outdoors is so accessible in the USA and comes in so many different shapes and forms.

10% is still 20,000 Bronco's that are likely to venture off road in 2021. Which lets face it, is probably more than the number of Lotus cars likely to visit and drive on a race circuit in a year.



As for tyres. It really depends what you are doing. Bigger tyres roll over objects better. Hence why you are running 7.50's instead of 6.00's!

[CAPP0]

swisstoni said:

If anything LR are running on bling.
Mud plugging couldn’t be further from most buyer’s intentions I wouldn’t have thought.

I've largely avoided the "Old Defender vs New" debates, albeit I'm an old 'un owner, but someone came to my house today and was talking about mine, and quite unprompted he said "well, yours is great for sticking a sheep or a muddy dog in but nobody is going to do that with one of those new ones, they're just like a Range Rover". He's not an owner of either, it was just his point of view, so probably bears out the post above.

[300bhp/ton]

CAPP0 said:

swisstoni said:

If anything LR are running on bling.
Mud plugging couldn’t be further from most buyer’s intentions I wouldn’t have thought.

I've largely avoided the "Old Defender vs New" debates, albeit I'm an old 'un owner, but someone came to my house today and was talking about mine, and quite unprompted he said "well, yours is great for sticking a sheep or a muddy dog in but nobody is going to do that with one of those new ones, they're just like a Range Rover". He's not an owner of either, it was just his point of view, so probably bears out the post above.

On a similar note.

The traditional Defender, if you say cracked a rear light lens or indicator. Something that can happen off road quite easily. You can easily order a replacement and have it next day (or in some parts of the country, stores that stock the lenses on the shelf). And fix it yourself in about 10 mins.

Do the same on the new one and I hate to think how much (£2-5k???) or how long it would take to get the part.

Likewise with some of the body panels or bumpers too.


I know as a trend modern cars are not built like the old Defender. But this design criteria did make them very robust and user friendly off road. The Wrangler, Jimny and Grenadier aren't quite the same formula. But would appear to be many rungs different to the new Defender in this regard.

Edited by 300bhp/ton on Tuesday 24th November 18:04

[NMNeil]

petery said:

This whole land rovers are unreliable think, like with most manufacturers gets blown out of all proportion. if you build 1k of cars every year you are going to suffer a few that have problems, just one of those thing and the only people that ever go online to forums and youtube to talk about their cars are the ones that have issues so it looks like more of an issue than there really is. Who goes on to talk about how good they are? very few as they are out driving them!

My family have had LR products in various forms since 1991 (Discovery 1,Discovery 2(x2) ,3,4, Range Rover L322, Range Rover sport L494 and now a new defender) done getting on for 750k miles across the cars and not had any major issues with any of them, they don't get an easy life spend a lot of it towing fairly big trailers get used off road etc.

There is no doubt there are a few bad ones as with every item in life but the majority see to run round just fine.

I agree.
Just relying on the negative reviews of others, especially with a niche vehicle is unrealistic.
Some vehicles are just plain duds. Anything with a GM Northstar engine or Chrysler 2.7 engine for example.
I believe the biggest problem with reliability for any vehicle is the manufacturer adding gimmicks to attract buyers. More gimmicks, more to go wrong leading to more negative feedback. But ignore the gadgetry and often the underlying vehicle is just fine.

[NMNeil]

mercedeslimos said:

Errr....

VW.

Volkswagen.

Volks. Wagen.

Adolf Hitler.

Dr. Ing. h.c. Ferdinand Porsche.

Built a (not so) little factory in Fallersleben, Niedersachsen in 1938. VW38s (first few production "Beetles") are extremely sought after, probably very much like the first Land Rovers rolled out of Solihull in 1948.

The VW beetle was designed by Josef Ganz. But as he was a jew, they kept that quiet.
The 1933 Standard Superior.
https://us-browse.startpage.com/av/anon-image?piur...

[300bhp/ton]

NMNeil said:

I
Some vehicles are just plain duds. Anything with a GM Northstar engine .

That's a bit of a sweeping statement and not an accurate representation.

[Mikebentley]

300bhp/ton said:

NMNeil said:

I
Some vehicles are just plain duds. Anything with a GM Northstar engine .

That's a bit of a sweeping statement and not an accurate representation.

I had a Cadillac with the V8 Northstar in it and it was great.

[warch]

300bhp/ton said:

As for tyres. It really depends what you are doing. Bigger tyres roll over objects better. Hence why you are running 7.50's instead of 6.00's!

I fitted 7.50s because they are taller than 6.00s (also quite hard to obtain now) and increase the gearing slightly. They are also quite cheap to buy secondhand and are radial (most 6.00s are crossply). Mine come from the MoD who knew a thing or two about Land Rovers, although I believe they no longer use them. My only modification apart from lwb rims (more offset), weber carburettor and electronic ignition.

[mercedeslimos]

Dashnine said:

And if weren’t for British management immediately after WWII VW wouldn’t even exist.

Major Ivan Hirst, lived much of his life in my home town, Huddersfield. Saw the potential in the factory and the people of VW. They were ready to lock it up but he saw something in that little car.

Slightly biased, wrote a thesis on this a number of years ago.

[Bullet-Proof_Biscuit]

Cold said:

Coin-Slot said:

Squadrone Rosso said:

TFL in the US (on YouTube) aren’t having any luck with their Defender. Bought with their own money as a long termer, now awaiting car number 3.

Read the thread start to finish.

What's telling is that those who attempt to criticise the Defender's reliability only seem to have this one case to draw upon for use as an example. There aren't endless tales of things breaking, falling off or simply being crap. So this one incident gets repeated again and again.

There will be in 3 years when the warranty runs out! Call it bitter experience, of every single recent LR...