End of a lease - Dilapidation on a building to be demolished
Discussion
The lease on our warehouse is up tomorrow and the landlord is wanting to put together a schedule of dilapidation. Everyone knows the building is going to be knocked down within the next month to make way for student accommodation. The adjoining warehouse was stung with a 12k bill but they settled on 2.5k. I'm in no position to be able to afford to pay that, especially when the building is not in a bad state of repair. The only real bad things I can think of are the gutters haven't been cleaned for a while and the paint from the floor is crumbling in places quite badly so the concrete below is exposed. There is also two metal plates covering a hole where a ventilation shaft exited the building.
Has anyone found themselves in a similar situation and managed to argue out of paying anything the landlord might charge. I've been told that if a building in going to be knocked down then dilapidation can't be charged for? Is this true? Also how do I go about proving that the building is going to be knocked down? Builders have been in to quote on demolition, planning permission has all been passed and most people in the area freely talk about it being knocked down very soon.
I just know what this landlord is like and how they will try their best to bill me for anything extra they can.
Thank you.
Has anyone found themselves in a similar situation and managed to argue out of paying anything the landlord might charge. I've been told that if a building in going to be knocked down then dilapidation can't be charged for? Is this true? Also how do I go about proving that the building is going to be knocked down? Builders have been in to quote on demolition, planning permission has all been passed and most people in the area freely talk about it being knocked down very soon.
I just know what this landlord is like and how they will try their best to bill me for anything extra they can.
Thank you.
You probably need advice on this. Yes if the building is to be demolished no dilapidations are payable, after all there is no point in putting the property back in to the state that it was when you took it.
Proving it is a challenge, minutes of board meetings etc are required. I guess the only way to do it is to contect the claim the whole way to court and assume the landlord won't lie under oath!
Proving it is a challenge, minutes of board meetings etc are required. I guess the only way to do it is to contect the claim the whole way to court and assume the landlord won't lie under oath!
I'm due to hand the keys over this afternoon. They have already said that they will carry out an initial schedule of dilapidations before they decide whether to hire an independent specialist. They did the same thing with the adjoining warehouse and tried to bill him huge amounts to do stupid things like paint internal walls. They were always really sketchy about me not moving out at the end of my lease since they want to build on it and have had builders in uoting on demolition for the end of November.
How do you suggest I stall? Should I even hand the keys back today and are they entitled to just cut the padlock from the front off?
Thanks
How do you suggest I stall? Should I even hand the keys back today and are they entitled to just cut the padlock from the front off?
Thanks
johnfm said:
You will probably want the advice of a good property litigation lawyer.
You can probably get some good initial advice from a good one for less than £500 - if that.
The landlord might take the piss - so you might need decent advice.
Is it not surveyors who normally advise on dilaps claims?You can probably get some good initial advice from a good one for less than £500 - if that.
The landlord might take the piss - so you might need decent advice.
Note sure if this helps.
Another website said:
Quantifying dilapidations
The common law position is that the measure of damages is the cost of the works required to put the property into the condition that it should have been left according to the terms of the lease including any associated damages, such as loss of rent whilst the work is being carried out.
Cap on damages – Section 18(1) of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1927
It was recognised that the common law position was harsh on the tenant as the costs of such works could easily outstrip the actual benefit to the landlord, particularly if the landlord intended to demolish the property at the end of the term. Accordingly, section 18(1) of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1927 capped such damages to the diminution in the value of the reversion resulting from the breach of the repairing covenant and potentially extinguished the claim altogether where the property was to be demolished or substantially altered.
Some landlords will try to take the mick with Dilaps. One of my clients vacated a property at the end of a lease as it was surplus to requirements. It had originally been a bare bones new build and my client had paid for it to be brought up to a really high standard. The Landlord was proposing charging for taking OUT all the improvements my client had installed. Eventauuly we agreed a compromise but LLs will try to screw you out of as much as possible.The common law position is that the measure of damages is the cost of the works required to put the property into the condition that it should have been left according to the terms of the lease including any associated damages, such as loss of rent whilst the work is being carried out.
Cap on damages – Section 18(1) of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1927
It was recognised that the common law position was harsh on the tenant as the costs of such works could easily outstrip the actual benefit to the landlord, particularly if the landlord intended to demolish the property at the end of the term. Accordingly, section 18(1) of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1927 capped such damages to the diminution in the value of the reversion resulting from the breach of the repairing covenant and potentially extinguished the claim altogether where the property was to be demolished or substantially altered.
I am expecting the landlord to take the piss on dilapidation. I've already been told by one of their employees handling the handover that pending the first viewing they might choose to hire a specialist to draw up a list of dilapidations that they will try and bill me for. I don't think theres much that I can do without them finding something to bill me for. I spoke to a solicitor for some preliminary advice and all they could advise me on was to wait for what they come back with before they can look into it further.
Am I right in thinking that if they did knock it down after a month and I haven't paid them anything then i wouldn't need to pay for anything they tried to bill me for. I'm up against a company with 200 employees, in house solicitors and a director with a reputation for 'screwing people over'.
Would it be ok for me to record the whole handover on my phone in the hope that they admit to it being developed? Is this even legal or would I need to le the other party know they are being recorded.
Thanks
Am I right in thinking that if they did knock it down after a month and I haven't paid them anything then i wouldn't need to pay for anything they tried to bill me for. I'm up against a company with 200 employees, in house solicitors and a director with a reputation for 'screwing people over'.
Would it be ok for me to record the whole handover on my phone in the hope that they admit to it being developed? Is this even legal or would I need to le the other party know they are being recorded.
Thanks
From a purely practical perspective, they won't want to hold up development on a few thousand pounds, so I suggest you make it clear you are aware they are going to demolish the building and that a dilaps claim is inappropriate.
If they pursue it, then as others say, procrastinate.
Make sure you have done a photo / video survey and then defer as long as possible. Or offer to pay only if they sign up to repay if they demolish. Put together a dossier of evidence (planning etc) showing why you believe this is what is going to happen.
Most likely, if they are going to demolish, they will have to get on with it before you have to agree to a payment.
The landlord suffers no diminution of value if the property is demolished or redeveloped and hence he has no claim.
See "dilapidations protocol" to get a better understanding and if in doubt appoint a surveyor.
http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/c...
See "dilapidations protocol" to get a better understanding and if in doubt appoint a surveyor.
http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/c...
I'm not sure what all this talk about lawyers is.
My advice - if you must use a lawyer use a property litigation specialist familiar with dilapidations. Do not use the lawyer who did your conveyancing, nor the one on the local high street. The specialist will cost more and will provide excellent value.
Really what you need though is a Building Surveyor - again one who is experienced with dilapidations, not one who does house surveys.
The landlord's first step is to provide a Terminal Dilapidations Schedule. This should be costed, but often is not. Don't complain too much in this instance if is not. The cost of this report can normally be passed onto the tenant.
Secondly the amount that the Landlord can claim is limited to the 'diminution' in value caused by the breach of clauses within the lease. Obviously if the landlord is demolishing the building then their is no diminution (unless they are going to say that your maintenance is so bad they've had to knock it down!).
I'm not a Building Surveyor, but do from time to time get involved with dilap's. Feel free to PM if you have any questions.
PS - I'm not fishing for work - you need a Building Surveyor on this.
My advice - if you must use a lawyer use a property litigation specialist familiar with dilapidations. Do not use the lawyer who did your conveyancing, nor the one on the local high street. The specialist will cost more and will provide excellent value.
Really what you need though is a Building Surveyor - again one who is experienced with dilapidations, not one who does house surveys.
The landlord's first step is to provide a Terminal Dilapidations Schedule. This should be costed, but often is not. Don't complain too much in this instance if is not. The cost of this report can normally be passed onto the tenant.
Secondly the amount that the Landlord can claim is limited to the 'diminution' in value caused by the breach of clauses within the lease. Obviously if the landlord is demolishing the building then their is no diminution (unless they are going to say that your maintenance is so bad they've had to knock it down!).
I'm not a Building Surveyor, but do from time to time get involved with dilap's. Feel free to PM if you have any questions.
PS - I'm not fishing for work - you need a Building Surveyor on this.
If you are fairly sure it will be demolished then you don't need a surveyor. His role in this would have been to minimise and argue the costs of a dilaps bill. As you don't think you should have one it is pointless paying someone to contest it's value.
What you do need, right now, is a decent commercial property solicitor. If it is as cut and dried as you believe then a letter from him should be enough to stop them even contemplating hiring somoene to do a schedule of dilapidations. He can also check that any required notices etc have been given on time and in the correct manner.
What you do need, right now, is a decent commercial property solicitor. If it is as cut and dried as you believe then a letter from him should be enough to stop them even contemplating hiring somoene to do a schedule of dilapidations. He can also check that any required notices etc have been given on time and in the correct manner.
have the correct notices been served if the Lease is under The 1954 Act? You could have security of tenure and if the Landlord is planning to redevelop you could make a real pain of yourself as you have the right to renew your lease so I wouldn't be afraid just yet. A Building Surveyor is what you need.
Gassing Station | Business | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff