Starting Again
Discussion
janesmith1950 said:
£2k a day on PPC is not a typo. In the grand scheme of things it's a relatively small budget compared to some spenders with Google. The business I worked in prior to starting my own was spending in the region of £9k.
It's the bid amounts on keywords (over simplification, there are many other factors) that affect your search rankings. Our sites generally sit in the top 4 of a Google search for terms in our sector.
Your cost to acquire must be sky high but I assume more than covered by the margin on the service? ( I am guessing service but I am prepared to be corrected if a product) It's the bid amounts on keywords (over simplification, there are many other factors) that affect your search rankings. Our sites generally sit in the top 4 of a Google search for terms in our sector.
You have an exciting model if it has such a high ebb and flow so early in its life.
MrSparks said:
I'm in online retail and spend £20 a day on Adwords, maybe that's why I haven't got my R8 yet if I need to be spending £2k a day! eek!
Good luck DSLiverpool, looking forward to reading more about your ventures.
Cheers - we have the all important window in a really cool complex - we are in our way.Good luck DSLiverpool, looking forward to reading more about your ventures.
Our next instalment will be how we get on with the cosmetics joint venture and shortly after that the clothing relaunch. One of us is a online clothing ecommerce guru - it's not me ;-)
Two monthly update and a few lessons have been learnt:
1, Fancy LA based web designers come up with stuff you might not like. (who knew - not me)
2, In the year I have been out of ecommerce a whole new type of "make nothing but do it very big" type sellers have appeared - I understand loss leaders and feedback builders but on every line !!! it can only be a database builder across 1000+ skus.
3, Its easy to get your head turned by this weeks idea / client / proposition
4, The £ diving has made our Polski Ukrainian engine room 25% more than 3 months ago.
5, Stock and order handling systems on the whole NONE of them do a proper job just 80% of the job and the type you use varies the 80%. NONE of them can handle bundles on Google shopping - anyone ?
So our websites 95% up, it needs a little finishing but has already attracted one client and paid for itself - we should be Shopify EXPERT approved shortly thats when we start the PR we will be the only expert level in Merseyside - adwords and good old PR on a limited budget is the plan.
Our own ecommerce is about to launch I`ll put the link in my profile once up, its linked to ebay via InkFrog and we have a couple of issues but once sussed we will be well qualified to advise etc - the two queries they said they hadnt had before so were not being stupid but maybe we are operating differently, the idea is that site and ebay orders are taken - over £x they need approval (a tick) then they send themselves to the shipping agent. This is ok with the site not so much with ebay yet plus ebay import on variations needs too much manual intervention for my liking - if we cant automate the virgin feed for variations its off to India to be done I think.
The sites held up because it looks ugly, Its a cross between RS components, Maplin and CPC and I think it needs to be a Maplin / ebuyer type interface - easy to change on Shopify but the UX process etc takes time.
Strategy for this first site is machine gun not sniper - selling anything from aerial fixings through PA to guitars !!! 3000 skus at a fixed 50% on cost.
Clients wise we have small ones as a new agency expects but we have (via my partners contacts) 2 very huge rag traders we are in discussion with to replatform (both on Magento) and manage going forward - we need one of these to land as income is inconsistent and not enough after 6 months.
Personally I think once we get Shopify expert status and do some PR we can challenge wemakewebsites who seem to have left the meter on bank holiday mode they are seriously expensive for Shopify and I think we can take work from them once we have some credibility. Should be 10 sites built by November.
If one of the big ones lands I`ll update sooner, if I was relying on this to pay for anything even now it cant! I see the potential but its been 6 months! My 2 partners have had slim pickings but enough to get by on, they are the main talent hence I have no issue with this scenario.
1, Fancy LA based web designers come up with stuff you might not like. (who knew - not me)
2, In the year I have been out of ecommerce a whole new type of "make nothing but do it very big" type sellers have appeared - I understand loss leaders and feedback builders but on every line !!! it can only be a database builder across 1000+ skus.
3, Its easy to get your head turned by this weeks idea / client / proposition
4, The £ diving has made our Polski Ukrainian engine room 25% more than 3 months ago.
5, Stock and order handling systems on the whole NONE of them do a proper job just 80% of the job and the type you use varies the 80%. NONE of them can handle bundles on Google shopping - anyone ?
So our websites 95% up, it needs a little finishing but has already attracted one client and paid for itself - we should be Shopify EXPERT approved shortly thats when we start the PR we will be the only expert level in Merseyside - adwords and good old PR on a limited budget is the plan.
Our own ecommerce is about to launch I`ll put the link in my profile once up, its linked to ebay via InkFrog and we have a couple of issues but once sussed we will be well qualified to advise etc - the two queries they said they hadnt had before so were not being stupid but maybe we are operating differently, the idea is that site and ebay orders are taken - over £x they need approval (a tick) then they send themselves to the shipping agent. This is ok with the site not so much with ebay yet plus ebay import on variations needs too much manual intervention for my liking - if we cant automate the virgin feed for variations its off to India to be done I think.
The sites held up because it looks ugly, Its a cross between RS components, Maplin and CPC and I think it needs to be a Maplin / ebuyer type interface - easy to change on Shopify but the UX process etc takes time.
Strategy for this first site is machine gun not sniper - selling anything from aerial fixings through PA to guitars !!! 3000 skus at a fixed 50% on cost.
Clients wise we have small ones as a new agency expects but we have (via my partners contacts) 2 very huge rag traders we are in discussion with to replatform (both on Magento) and manage going forward - we need one of these to land as income is inconsistent and not enough after 6 months.
Personally I think once we get Shopify expert status and do some PR we can challenge wemakewebsites who seem to have left the meter on bank holiday mode they are seriously expensive for Shopify and I think we can take work from them once we have some credibility. Should be 10 sites built by November.
If one of the big ones lands I`ll update sooner, if I was relying on this to pay for anything even now it cant! I see the potential but its been 6 months! My 2 partners have had slim pickings but enough to get by on, they are the main talent hence I have no issue with this scenario.
RM said:
DSLiverpool said:
we should be Shopify EXPERT approved shortly thats when we start the PR we will be the only expert level in Merseyside
Did you have the 5 plus stores live, or develop a theme as a shortcut?- ** edit Expert approval came through tonight - only Liverpool agency with it ***
Edited by DSLiverpool on Tuesday 25th October 22:03
Crikey has it been that long ? well my obsession with windows is growing having gone from none, to one we are moving again and this time I get loads of windows, and space and privacy and environment but as ever all is not that straightforward at Velstar towers.
The drive to Liverpool does my head in, 5.7 miles but it can take ages - over an hour at times !! so we have outgrown office number 2 and as we now have 5 people the simple fact 3 of us live on the wirral means the main office is going to be on the classy side of the water (!) however we are keeping a meeting room and mail drop / hot desk in Liverpool so we can meet clients on either side and our 2 Liverpool based members can work in town if necessary.
Quick update in that its getting more stable, we are building up retainers and in a move reminiscent of Shankly at his best we have poached the Suarez of SEO from another agency he starts tomorrow and will help with retainers and new clients.
Our other new member is a newly escaped graduate from Liverpool uni who got a 2:1 in marketing specialising in social digital, we got lucky as she was offered a place at JLR in Coventry after a year internship but wanted to stay local.
12 months in still not earning anything but its coming, its coming .........
The drive to Liverpool does my head in, 5.7 miles but it can take ages - over an hour at times !! so we have outgrown office number 2 and as we now have 5 people the simple fact 3 of us live on the wirral means the main office is going to be on the classy side of the water (!) however we are keeping a meeting room and mail drop / hot desk in Liverpool so we can meet clients on either side and our 2 Liverpool based members can work in town if necessary.
Quick update in that its getting more stable, we are building up retainers and in a move reminiscent of Shankly at his best we have poached the Suarez of SEO from another agency he starts tomorrow and will help with retainers and new clients.
Our other new member is a newly escaped graduate from Liverpool uni who got a 2:1 in marketing specialising in social digital, we got lucky as she was offered a place at JLR in Coventry after a year internship but wanted to stay local.
12 months in still not earning anything but its coming, its coming .........
JPJPJP said:
Good stuff DS.
Do you miss etailing phones much?
Domestic phones no - it is a declining market that people are less likely to spend more than the minimum on and Argos et al are dominant, however office phones, headsets and conference phones I do miss the commercial deals and scale.Do you miss etailing phones much?
My lock out has 10 weeks left and I suspect I will look at "office" headsets again when able to do so. Except now I have the website, ux, social, seo and support expenses covered by the agency we can really disrupt the market. Logistics are now far simpler than even 2 years ago with 3pl companies popping up everywhere.
So quick update and a few things I now understand.
Commuting is hell -
The 5.7 mile commute through the tunnel is hell and as 3 of us are on the wirral with kids we have decided on a Wirral office which is by the docks, quite lovely and is next to the Wirral business hub members lounge which I am sure we can use as an overspill area. New office could take 4 games of table tennis and has many windows! We are keeping the Liverpool facility as well because we are still using Liverpool as our HQ so to speak (no ones ever heard of the Wirral and were getting work from all over the place).
More skills -
There are now 5 of us however no actual employees, we have 2 freelancers working within our office on Velstar marketing and projects in Social and SEO / traffic analysis - they were carefully picked and complement the skills my 2 partners have (I have omitted my "skills")
Networking rocks -
Despite not actually marketing ourselves we have so many diverse networks between us (Dan was a London based front end developer, John has been in ecommerce consultancy for over 20 years, Pete the new addition is like a lead ferret like a magnet for designers and people wanting a "good bloke") - as such we havent done any real marketing but we will from September.
Oh and good old PH of course, its nice to work with PH`ers as it has a certain sense of community and honesty (!).
Am I rich ?
Er no, this business is all about marketing and retainers (we have 3 revenue shares as well) we are still quite young to have a good stable of retainers but the addition of SEO and Social skills was designed to push for monthlies and we have set a target this year for £10k a month which is realistic but still not enough. I can see how agencies fail and its cashflow, its famine or feast right now I can see lots of money in the pipeline but held up mainly on client data, decision or design sign off (frustrating).
Ecommerce
Yep - I have sourced a range of headsets that we will brand ourselves and use 3pl shipping selling over a shopify site and Amazon - I am pretty confident with the skills I have in house to market the site and the quality of the site that we can be a player within 12 months - I cannot do this for another 7 weeks however.
Thats it for now, off to pack for the big move next week.
Commuting is hell -
The 5.7 mile commute through the tunnel is hell and as 3 of us are on the wirral with kids we have decided on a Wirral office which is by the docks, quite lovely and is next to the Wirral business hub members lounge which I am sure we can use as an overspill area. New office could take 4 games of table tennis and has many windows! We are keeping the Liverpool facility as well because we are still using Liverpool as our HQ so to speak (no ones ever heard of the Wirral and were getting work from all over the place).
More skills -
There are now 5 of us however no actual employees, we have 2 freelancers working within our office on Velstar marketing and projects in Social and SEO / traffic analysis - they were carefully picked and complement the skills my 2 partners have (I have omitted my "skills")
Networking rocks -
Despite not actually marketing ourselves we have so many diverse networks between us (Dan was a London based front end developer, John has been in ecommerce consultancy for over 20 years, Pete the new addition is like a lead ferret like a magnet for designers and people wanting a "good bloke") - as such we havent done any real marketing but we will from September.
Oh and good old PH of course, its nice to work with PH`ers as it has a certain sense of community and honesty (!).
Am I rich ?
Er no, this business is all about marketing and retainers (we have 3 revenue shares as well) we are still quite young to have a good stable of retainers but the addition of SEO and Social skills was designed to push for monthlies and we have set a target this year for £10k a month which is realistic but still not enough. I can see how agencies fail and its cashflow, its famine or feast right now I can see lots of money in the pipeline but held up mainly on client data, decision or design sign off (frustrating).
Ecommerce
Yep - I have sourced a range of headsets that we will brand ourselves and use 3pl shipping selling over a shopify site and Amazon - I am pretty confident with the skills I have in house to market the site and the quality of the site that we can be a player within 12 months - I cannot do this for another 7 weeks however.
Thats it for now, off to pack for the big move next week.
Hoofy said:
How do you get something branded? Presumably the headsets are of a suitable quality? Did you have to buy some to test them out? I've always been suspicious when doing this kind of thing.
I asked an importer if the factory had any models they didnt currently sell in the UK, could they bring some over unbranded say 100 of 4 models and we will label the box and swing ticket the product. Small investment and can get it properly branded if it takes off. Ive launched rebranded products on Amazon previously (reboxed another product) and with daily manipulation got it to number 3 after a month in fact I have just put a PHers product on Amazon as trial and we sold 2 in a week via Amazon enquiry (they are £6k each! they will be happy to verify 2 sales)
The Chinese and mass sellers cannot do sniper, they do automated keyword or basic stuff leaving room to get through it with careful management
Hoofy said:
Ah, I see. I guess it works for more expensive items where you only have to sell a couple of them a week?
Not really - once set up the tweaks only take a few minutes once you know what to look for and what to change, its could be worth doing it for a few £ an item a week and it would be far more effective than not doing it.Hoofy said:
What I meant was that if you only had a small number of items to sell so had the time to do this then your items would be fairly expensive? Or do you end up shifting a lot?
If you want a chat PM me and I will happily explain what you can do to make a difference. Amazon have decluttered the UI on the campaign manager recently and handily offer you automated keywords - dont use automated keywords set it up manually if used.limpsfield said:
Just posting to say I really enjoy reading this thread and wish you all the best. Dealing in the more ethereal world of bloody numbers on a screen these stories of real products are a great read.
Cheers - I tend to revisit when I need to spur myself on but having a 22, 25 and 33 year old buzzing away in the office explaining to me what "inspo" and RN is (inspiration and Right Now) whilst setting up our Google plus page etc and telling me how to use my computer more efficiently is lovely. AB said:
DSLiverpool said:
Oh and good old PH of course, its nice to work with PH`ers as it has a certain sense of community and honesty (!).
Agreed! I've not seen this thread before today Dave, but our conversation this morning made me go looking!It's been great working with Dave over the last few months, I think we've surprised each other (or at least Dave's e-commerce expertise have surprised me!) with what is possible with an excellent knowledge of the likes of Amazon etc even with an expensive product that to an outsider doesn't seem to have a huge market.
With Dave's help, we sold 2 new (high value/margin) products through Amazon within 2 days of him helping us get it listed and 'optimising' it and this is a product that by selling a couple a month gives you a very comfortable income.
Separate to this, the team of very skilled, passionate and hungry people he has built up are working on the launch of our e-commerce site and it's extremely exciting.
Well its been a while but here goes ....
Real staff - 7 with two more to be recruited, a designer and an email marketing specialist.
Clients - 31 projects live from full site with marketing to just https migration, 16 on retainer, 13 in the sales funnel to pull down.
Ecommerce - none but WOW! Sweets will be live this month and the jewellery this year (hopefully)
Revenue share income - Bugger all so far but its no secret we are working with Gio Goi and they are sponsoring MMA in Sheffield to "harden the brand" along with Netflix commissioning a series on the brothers (read the book "still breathing" its a great tale). With hindsight we got a bit carried away and have put far more effort in here than expected and its a very slow burn. It looks like it will pay off, we have three revenue share projects going live in the next 8 weeks but have sliced expectation.
My wages - £1400 in total yes fourteen hundred but we have paid back 25% of my investment and I see the light ...... £2k ish from October I hope.
Location - Birkenhead and Liverpool but we may have to move back to Liverpool for our next move I am thinking Princess Dock to avoid driving down the strand each day. We are using a consultant to guide us, he is an ex agency guy who built up the biggest one in Liverpool and scarily he said if we want to get serious we need to move to Manchester for the talent, thats hard to take and I struggle to believe it (until we tried to hire a designer).
Memorable things:
Petes millions of little workers who write content, do technical seo, generally do micro aspects of marketing as real specialists in their field amaze me
Everyone has to have a bloody Mac laptop at £1500 for an average one (were leasing them but if Velstar goes under I am committed!)
Our May forecast for the end of year retainer target of £10k was smashed in August - new target is three times as much.
Why do people think an invoice due date is the time to think about paying ..... this kills me as cashflow is my main concern
Other agencies are nice people and refer clients for ecommerce and we refer back for portfolio sites etc.
Read the Morph Suits story its quite inspiring and shows you that "idea" can come from anywhere.
Thats it for now just left to say the most obscure enquiry came in today Landmine detecting rats - a great charity and one we are going to support, they want to sell Ratty stuff to fund more sniffer rats maybe PH could support it once live it seems like a worthy cause.
Real staff - 7 with two more to be recruited, a designer and an email marketing specialist.
Clients - 31 projects live from full site with marketing to just https migration, 16 on retainer, 13 in the sales funnel to pull down.
Ecommerce - none but WOW! Sweets will be live this month and the jewellery this year (hopefully)
Revenue share income - Bugger all so far but its no secret we are working with Gio Goi and they are sponsoring MMA in Sheffield to "harden the brand" along with Netflix commissioning a series on the brothers (read the book "still breathing" its a great tale). With hindsight we got a bit carried away and have put far more effort in here than expected and its a very slow burn. It looks like it will pay off, we have three revenue share projects going live in the next 8 weeks but have sliced expectation.
My wages - £1400 in total yes fourteen hundred but we have paid back 25% of my investment and I see the light ...... £2k ish from October I hope.
Location - Birkenhead and Liverpool but we may have to move back to Liverpool for our next move I am thinking Princess Dock to avoid driving down the strand each day. We are using a consultant to guide us, he is an ex agency guy who built up the biggest one in Liverpool and scarily he said if we want to get serious we need to move to Manchester for the talent, thats hard to take and I struggle to believe it (until we tried to hire a designer).
Memorable things:
Petes millions of little workers who write content, do technical seo, generally do micro aspects of marketing as real specialists in their field amaze me
Everyone has to have a bloody Mac laptop at £1500 for an average one (were leasing them but if Velstar goes under I am committed!)
Our May forecast for the end of year retainer target of £10k was smashed in August - new target is three times as much.
Why do people think an invoice due date is the time to think about paying ..... this kills me as cashflow is my main concern
Other agencies are nice people and refer clients for ecommerce and we refer back for portfolio sites etc.
Read the Morph Suits story its quite inspiring and shows you that "idea" can come from anywhere.
Thats it for now just left to say the most obscure enquiry came in today Landmine detecting rats - a great charity and one we are going to support, they want to sell Ratty stuff to fund more sniffer rats maybe PH could support it once live it seems like a worthy cause.
Edited by DSLiverpool on Saturday 9th September 01:32
Were moving again, Latitude building Pier Head Liverpool chosen for its vibe, coolness, price and location (2 mins from ferry, station and tunnel exit) so this is a serviced office with hot desks and great views of the river, its called Avenue HQ Mann Island and we think we can get freelancers from the hotdesks and more devs by being located in Liverpool.
Personally its not great for me but it is for everyone else.
Expansion is now fully restricted by developers and marketers - we need staff that can multitask to a degree as we cannot afford one person in each specific role (also we will still use freelancers).
Our own site is just live (still needs work) and we will be marketing ourselves from May when we should be in a position to take work on.
Ramping up the workforce introduced me to PAYE which when you add VAT and corp tax makes you think your single handedly supporting the government. January was £14k out on VAT and PAYE which really screwed the cashflow.
Question - does every agency fall out with clients on occasion? this is new to me but some of them just ask and ask and ask or throw in a "I am paying you thousands and I want to see results immediately" doing 80% ecommerce we are far more answerable than a generic dev agency.
Personally its not great for me but it is for everyone else.
Expansion is now fully restricted by developers and marketers - we need staff that can multitask to a degree as we cannot afford one person in each specific role (also we will still use freelancers).
Our own site is just live (still needs work) and we will be marketing ourselves from May when we should be in a position to take work on.
Ramping up the workforce introduced me to PAYE which when you add VAT and corp tax makes you think your single handedly supporting the government. January was £14k out on VAT and PAYE which really screwed the cashflow.
Question - does every agency fall out with clients on occasion? this is new to me but some of them just ask and ask and ask or throw in a "I am paying you thousands and I want to see results immediately" doing 80% ecommerce we are far more answerable than a generic dev agency.
Thanks James, its a learning curve and we have just signed up to Adobe Sign to send agreed specs and service level agreements out with.
The big project I discussed with you didnt come off they actually stopped the company trading it was eating so much online cash (the original site was a CRO disaster and cost over £50k)
The big project I discussed with you didnt come off they actually stopped the company trading it was eating so much online cash (the original site was a CRO disaster and cost over £50k)
Frimley111R said:
DSLiverpool said:
Ramping up the workforce introduced me to PAYE which when you add VAT and corp tax makes you think your single handedly supporting the government. January was £14k out on VAT and PAYE which really screwed the cashflow.
Employers NI is the one that always does my head in. A business gets 'taxed' for employing people who then work and generate tax! Utter madness.LeighW said:
Interest and penalties as per HMRC's guidance here:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/what-happens-if-you-do...
If your PAYE payments are considerable (we have clients with £10k - £15k per month), HMRC's debt management department will be on the phone to you sharpish if you are late paying. They are also partial to sending large gentlemen to knock on your door if the debt is high/old enough.
Ours is £1500 a month ish and oldest is Novemember but I will pay nov and dec end of this month so how bad is that? https://www.gov.uk/guidance/what-happens-if-you-do...
If your PAYE payments are considerable (we have clients with £10k - £15k per month), HMRC's debt management department will be on the phone to you sharpish if you are late paying. They are also partial to sending large gentlemen to knock on your door if the debt is high/old enough.
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