High St shop ideas?

[daemon]

singlecoil said:

daemon said:

Yipper said:

Would probably need to sell at least 50,000 pieces of cheese per year to make decent money. Roughly 1,000 a week. Or 150 per day. Every single day and every single week. Day in, day out. A tall order for a little shop.

Ahm oot.

And to be done by staff members who have no vested interest in making the business fly, because the O/P is proposing operating this as a sideline.

It "might" work if you're prepared to stand there all day every day and share your passion, enthusiasm and charisma with prospective customers - and "upsell" at every possible opportunity - but with staff who are probably on minimum wage?

I admire, but not in a good way, your determination to rubbish the cheese shop idea. Have a look at the info I posted, you'll find it illuminating.

Also, same site (which is where virtually every small business that's for sale is listed) try searching for cheese shop and see how many are for sale. That should tell you something.

By all means discourage the op, but get your facts right too.

When starting out with a new business its very easy to get false positives from friends, family and do gooders saying how its a fantastic idea and cant possibly fail.

I would rather point out the many many negatives and the statistically little chance the O/P has of making this a profitable, viable, longrunning business from a standing start of absolutely no experience and expecting to be able to put staff into it and simply draw a profit than be one of those people.

I'm not at all saying every cheese shop will fail - i'm saying that given the O/Ps basis of "well i really like cheeses" as a starting point, and the financial commitment and effort required and his proposed "hands off" approach, its highly unlikely that it will fly.

Lets not forget that the O/P came on here saying "oh i've been offered retail unit lease, what business could i start?" so not exactly an ideal basis is it?

I would suggest that any specialist retail business like this needs a passionate owner operator to be there for it to have any chance. Proposing running it as " a side line" would set alarm bells ringing for me.

If you think based on what we've learned so far about the O/P and what they have - ie, an empty unit, no idea of margins and no suppliers engaged - that he should drop say £30K in and commit the next 3 years of pretty much all free time to making it fly, then go right ahead, that is your prerogative, as it is mine to point out it could be a very expensive mistake.

If the O/P gathers all the information - positive and negative - and does his homework from there and believes its a viable opportunity then thats fantastic and i would wish him all the best.

Edited by daemon on Thursday 18th May 18:44

[The Moose]

daemon said:

The Moose said:

I would expect a gross margin higher than 33%

Cheese Profit Margin

Granted that's from 2012, but I'd expect the numbers to be higher on "artisan" cheese.

Well thats one persons view at the time.

Even IF they are 50%, you're still talking a lot of overheads and a lot of cheese to shift.

PLUS - any amount of online competition...

http://cheesesonline.co.uk/shop/cheese-selections/

https://www.pongcheese.co.uk/

to name just a couple

Buying cheese online isn't the same as buying in a store and I think would attract a different type of customer.

You say "even if", however that plus the VAT issue (which I wasn't certain on) makes a huge difference. To cover your estimated 5k per month reduces the sales requirement form 20k to only 10k a month, or 450 a day (if closed on Sundays).

[singlecoil]

daemon said:

When starting out with a new business its very easy to get false positives from friends, family and do gooders saying how its a fantastic idea and cant possibly fail.

I would rather point out the many many negatives and the statistically little chance the O/P has of making this a profitable, viable, longrunning business from a standing start of absolutely no experience and expecting to be able to put staff into it and simply draw a profit than be one of those people.

I'm not at all saying every cheese shop will fail - i'm saying that given the O/Ps basis of "well i really like cheeses" as a starting point, and the financial commitment and effort required and his proposed "hands off" approach, its highly unlikely that it will fly.

Lets not forget that the O/P came on here saying "oh i've been offered retail unit lease, what business could i start?" so not exactly an ideal basis is it?

I would suggest that any specialist retail business like this needs a passionate owner operator to be there for it to have any chance. Proposing running it as " a side line" would set alarm bells ringing for me.

If you think based on what we've learned so far about the O/P and what they have - ie, an empty unit, no idea of margins and no suppliers engaged - that he should drop say £30K in and commit the next 3 years of pretty much all free time to making it fly, then go right ahead, that is your prerogative, as it is mine to point out it could be a very expensive mistake.

If the O/P gathers all the information - positive and negative - and does his homework from there and believes its a viable opportunity then thats fantastic and i would wish him all the best.

Edited by daemon on Thursday 18th May 18:44

I've no objection to your pointing out negatives, I'm just making sure that if points are made that are factually incorrect then they are challenged, and more accurate information inserted.

There's plenty of genuine reasons to see going ahead with such a business as very risky without putting forward reasons that don't stand up to scrutiny.

[B17NNS]

Moominho said:

milkshake bar?

Oatcakes are a Staffordshire thing but no reason why you couldn't do the same. This place often has a queue outside the door (we're a small market town - Stone). Business is going so well for them they've opened another store in Stafford...

https://www.facebook.com/oatcakesmilkshakes/

https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g5...

[daemon]

singlecoil said:

I've no objection to your pointing out negatives, I'm just making sure that if points are made that are factually incorrect then they are challenged, and more accurate information inserted.

There's plenty of genuine reasons to see going ahead with such a business as very risky without putting forward reasons that don't stand up to scrutiny.

Unfortunately I don't have the time to research all of the potential pitfalls however I chose to brain dump any I think may be relevant to give the op points for consideration.

As I said if the op can sift through all that is put on here by everyone, mitigate any risks listed and is happy to proceed to the next step that's great.

Likewise if you have the time to "scrutinise" all the comments for the op and give him the thumbs up based on next to no information then you go right ahead.

Edited by daemon on Thursday 18th May 20:18

[singlecoil]

daemon said:

Unfortunately I don't have the time to research all of the potential pitfalls however I chose to brain dump any I think may be relevant to give the op points for consideration.

As I said if the op can sift through all that is put on here by everyone, mitigate any risks listed and is happy to proceed to the next step that's great.

Likewise if you have the time to "scrutinise" all the comments for the op and give him the thumbs up based on next to no information then you go right ahead.

I'm not giving him the thumbs up, just correcting the misinformation.

[CrouchingWayne]

If you go for a cheese shop, could you sell wine as well? Pretty high margin I'd guess and attracts 1) wine people niche and 2) gift niche? Could also do wine/cheese tasting for corporates and others through the back which would get another couple of niches.

[Yipper]

singlecoil said:

daemon said:

Yipper said:

Would probably need to sell at least 50,000 pieces of cheese per year to make decent money. Roughly 1,000 a week. Or 150 per day. Every single day and every single week. Day in, day out. A tall order for a little shop.

Ahm oot.

And to be done by staff members who have no vested interest in making the business fly, because the O/P is proposing operating this as a sideline.

It "might" work if you're prepared to stand there all day every day and share your passion, enthusiasm and charisma with prospective customers - and "upsell" at every possible opportunity - but with staff who are probably on minimum wage?

I admire, but not in a good way, your determination to rubbish the cheese shop idea. Have a look at the info I posted, you'll find it illuminating.

Also, same site (which is where virtually every small business that's for sale is listed) try searching for cheese shop and see how many are for sale. That should tell you something.

By all means discourage the op, but get your facts right too.

I admire, but not in a good way, your determination to wear rose-tinted specs.

The British high street is a shrinking industry. The cheese industry is shrinking. The economy has entered a downcycle. Taxes, rates, minimum wages, health and safety, hygiene compliance, local bureaucracy and parking charges for town high streets are absurd and getting absurder. Cold storage 24-7 for cheese ain't cheap. Tesco down the road will copy your products and undercut you by -30% the minute the local store manager spots you are making any money...

If you think selling 50-150 pieces of cheese and a bit of wine every single day for 52 weeks a year in that environment is a good business plan, then go ahead and knock yourself out

[singlecoil]

Yipper said:

I admire, but not in a good way, your determination to wear rose-tinted specs.

The British high street is a shrinking industry. The cheese industry is shrinking. The economy has entered a downcycle. Taxes, rates, minimum wages, health and safety, hygiene compliance, local bureaucracy and parking charges for town high streets are absurd and getting absurder. Cold storage 24-7 for cheese ain't cheap. Tesco down the road will copy your products and undercut you by -30% the minute the local store manager spots you are making any money...

If you think selling 50-150 pieces of cheese and a bit of wine every single day for 52 weeks a year in that environment is a good business plan, then go ahead and knock yourself out

It's so easy to take the piss and rubbish more or less any idea that presents itself here, and I see you are taking full advantage of that. But you would do so much better if you had any idea of what you were talking about.

In better areas (can't speak for where you live, and I daresay wherever it is it's colouring your view) cheese shops are doing well. The nearest delicatessen to me is opening a second branch, in the nearest town in the other direction all the delicatessens are busy despite the presence of a Waitrose in the middle of the town. As for your Tesco comment, you continue to betray your complete ignorance about the sort of person who uses a specialist cheese shop, they wouldn't even know if Tesco was undercutting it, let alone Tesco wouldn't be able to get the specific cheeses anyway.

There's plenty of good reasons to view such an undertaking with extreme caution, why not mention some of these instead of making st up.

[daemon]

singlecoil said:

Yipper said:

I admire, but not in a good way, your determination to wear rose-tinted specs.

The British high street is a shrinking industry. The cheese industry is shrinking. The economy has entered a downcycle. Taxes, rates, minimum wages, health and safety, hygiene compliance, local bureaucracy and parking charges for town high streets are absurd and getting absurder. Cold storage 24-7 for cheese ain't cheap. Tesco down the road will copy your products and undercut you by -30% the minute the local store manager spots you are making any money...

If you think selling 50-150 pieces of cheese and a bit of wine every single day for 52 weeks a year in that environment is a good business plan, then go ahead and knock yourself out

It's so easy to take the piss and rubbish more or less any idea that presents itself here, and I see you are taking full advantage of that.

But you would do so much better if you had any idea of what you were talking about.

There's plenty of good reasons to view such an undertaking with extreme caution, why not mention some of these instead of making st up.

Theres a lot in what yipper said that makes a lot of sense and is a true reflection of the challenges ALL bricks and mortar high street retail units face.

Why are you writing it all off as st?

Edited by daemon on Friday 19th May 08:20

[singlecoil]

daemon said:

Theres a lot in what yipper said that makes a lot of sense and is a true reflection of the challenges ALL bricks and mortar high street retail units face.

Why are you writing it all off as st?

Because despite what you say most of what he said is simply wrong, and I won't sit by and watch something that is a specialist subject for me get rubbished for the wrong reasons. There are a number of good reasons why the OP might not be best advised to proceed and if anyone puts any of those forward then they will see me agreeing rather than issuing corrections.

[daemon]

singlecoil said:

Because despite what you say most of what he said is simply wrong,

Ok, so what out of this is wrong :-

=> The British high street is a shrinking industry.
=> The cheese industry is shrinking.
=> The economy has entered a downcycle.
=> Taxes are absurd
=> Rates are absurd
=> Minimum wages are absurd
=> Health and safety is absurd
=> Hygiene compliance is absurd
=> Local bureaucracy is absurd
=> Parking charges for town high streets are absurd
=> Cold storage 24-7 for cheese ain't cheap

Now maybe a couple of those are debatable (the one about the cheese market - maybe incorrect but the O/P needs to consider it particularly within the context of high street retail and the threat of the internet to ALL high street retail), but surely the O/P needs to be considering ALL of those - even if its just to later rule them out as an issue?

=> Tesco down the road will copy your products and undercut you by -30% the minute the local store manager spots you are making any money...

I wholly agree with this - Tesco will and do watch local markets and adjust stock accordingly. If its not them it'll be another grocery chain, or the bloke running the local delicatessen spots you're making a bit of money so he jumps on the bandwagon too. To describe that as rubbish or st rather than a Threat to be considered is crazy.

singlecoil said:

and I won't sit by and watch....

Why? Whats it to you? He some bloke on the internet whos been offered a small retail unit in some town, has no idea what to do with it (if anything) who made a quip that hey maybe a cheese shop would be a good idea!

singlecoil said:

...something that is a specialist subject for me....

Great! You're a specialist on cheese high street retail? Fantastic.

Or what is your "specialist subject" here?

singlecoil said:

...get rubbished for the wrong reasons.

Whos rubbishing it? A lot of people - i suspect some of them with a lot more retail / business experience than you are saying tread with extreme caution, consider the economic landscape, and consider X, Y, Z. If the O/P can do all that and mitigate all those risks, then i am sure all of us will wish him well.

But to sit here like you're doing trying to stomp all over what may well be very real risks and considerations for the O/P and call them st and rubbish and to try to write those concerns off as irrelevant, well frankly i think thats very dangerous for the O/P

singlecoil said:

There are a number of good reasons why the OP might not be best advised to proceed and if anyone puts any of those forward then they will see me agreeing rather than issuing corrections.

Why? Do we need your permission?? Issuing corrections? Are we back at school?

If i were the O/P i'd be sifting through all the Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities and Threats listed here, adding them to my own list and then based on all the information they know (location, price, suitability, personal commitment, etc) i'd be deciding if they were valid or not and mitigating accordingly.

Trying to have an argument on the internet to prove you're right and everyone else is wrong and yours is The One True View is simply banal - and NOT helping the O/P.

Edited by daemon on Friday 19th May 08:51

Edited by daemon on Friday 19th May 08:53

[sinbaddio]

A gadgets and latest fads shop. Items can be bought in bulk from the Far East, at massively discounted prices. For instance these fidget spinner things, cost around £5.00 + shipping online. You can buy 1,000 for less than 50p each if you do your research. The downside is that people expect to buy these things online. However, the upside is that once you get a reputation in the local area the kids will be dragging their folks down every day, as we live in a 'I need it now' generation.

Good luck in whatever you do.

[singlecoil]

daemon said:

singlecoil said:

Because despite what you say most of what he said is simply wrong,

Ok, so what out of this is wrong :-

1. The British high street is a shrinking industry.
2. The cheese industry is shrinking.
3. The economy has entered a downcycle.
4. Taxes are absurd
5. Rates are absurd
6. Minimum wages are absurd
7. Health and safety is absurd
8. Hygiene compliance is absurd
9. Local bureaucracy is absurd
10. Parking charges for town high streets are absurd
11. Cold storage 24-7 for cheese ain't cheap

I hope you won't mind my not taking the effort to pick your entire and lengthy post apart, I'll concentrate on the essentials and this part will do nicely for that.

1. Area dependent. No shrinkage in my area and many others of the south east, come to think of it, many other area in other parts of the country too. IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE AREA.

2 No, it isn't

3. Not really, where are you measuring from?

4. We all have to pay taxes, shops pay tax on the profits they make, just like every other business, no profits, no tax

5. I've already said he won't be paying rates, shame you and he missed it.

6. Area dependent, what seems like a lot to you won't be for a shop in a good area.

7. The absurdity there is in your comment. The H&S rules are often applied awkwardly, but used correctly there are a good thing, not a bad one

8.See the answer to 7

9. He will be very unlikely to encounter any local bureaucracy at all, whatever you may think of it.

10. Most of the towns in my area have free parking for two hours, plenty of time to buy some cheese

11. The refrigeration cost will not be significant.

[daemon]

singlecoil said:

daemon said:

singlecoil said:

Because despite what you say most of what he said is simply wrong,

Ok, so what out of this is wrong :-

1. The British high street is a shrinking industry.
2. The cheese industry is shrinking.
3. The economy has entered a downcycle.
4. Taxes are absurd
5. Rates are absurd
6. Minimum wages are absurd
7. Health and safety is absurd
8. Hygiene compliance is absurd
9. Local bureaucracy is absurd
10. Parking charges for town high streets are absurd
11. Cold storage 24-7 for cheese ain't cheap

I hope you won't mind my not taking the effort to pick your entire and lengthy post apart, I'll concentrate on the essentials and this part will do nicely for that.

1. Area dependent. No shrinkage in my area and many others of the south east, come to think of it, many other area in other parts of the country too. IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE AREA.

2 No, it isn't

3. Not really, where are you measuring from?

4. We all have to pay taxes, shops pay tax on the profits they make, just like every other business, no profits, no tax

5. I've already said he won't be paying rates, shame you and he missed it.

6. Area dependent, what seems like a lot to you won't be for a shop in a good area.

7. The absurdity there is in your comment. The H&S rules are often applied awkwardly, but used correctly there are a good thing, not a bad one

8.See the answer to 7

9. He will be very unlikely to encounter any local bureaucracy at all, whatever you may think of it.

10. Most of the towns in my area have free parking for two hours, plenty of time to buy some cheese

11. The refrigeration cost will not be significant.

Well, there we go O/P, all the concerns that you might otherwise have considered, you dont need to worry about at all!

Yay!

We're all wrong and Singlecoil - a self appointed high street retail and cheese expert - has assessed all risks for you!

Just - go you!

Edited by daemon on Friday 19th May 09:30

[daemon]

singlecoil said:

daemon said:

singlecoil said:

Because despite what you say most of what he said is simply wrong,

Ok, so what out of this is wrong :-

1. The British high street is a shrinking industry.
2. The cheese industry is shrinking.
3. The economy has entered a downcycle.
4. Taxes are absurd
5. Rates are absurd
6. Minimum wages are absurd
7. Health and safety is absurd
8. Hygiene compliance is absurd
9. Local bureaucracy is absurd
10. Parking charges for town high streets are absurd
11. Cold storage 24-7 for cheese ain't cheap

I hope you won't mind my not taking the effort to pick your entire and lengthy post apart, I'll concentrate on the essentials and this part will do nicely for that.

1. Area dependent. No shrinkage in my area and many others of the south east, come to think of it, many other area in other parts of the country too. IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE AREA. and you dont know the area?

2 No, it isn't do you have fact to back that up or opinion?

3. Not really, where are you measuring from? it might not be a downcycle, but definite uncertainty, stagnant wages, etc

4. We all have to pay taxes, shops pay tax on the profits they make, just like every other business, no profits, no tax so they need to be factor in

5. I've already said he won't be paying rates, shame you and he missed it. i personally wouldnt "assume". Worth checking i'd have thought. Probably a 10 sec check but i wouldnt not check it.

6. Area dependent, what seems like a lot to you won't be for a shop in a good area. i think he was talking about EMPLOYMENT costs? Your £7.50 an hour employee will probably cost you £12-15 an hour

7. The absurdity there is in your comment. The H&S rules are often applied awkwardly, but used correctly there are a good thing, not a bad one they still need factored in

8.See the answer to 7 they still need factored in

9. He will be very unlikely to encounter any local bureaucracy at all, whatever you may think of it.they still need factored in

10. Most of the towns in my area have free parking for two hours, plenty of time to buy some cheese but off putting for casual shoppers and upcoming further restrictions based on emissions?

11. The refrigeration cost will not be significant.worth checking and factoring in? How much are big retail quality fridges? What about storage?

Firstly, i'm quoting Yipper - remember him? Hes the guy you said he was talking st and full of rubbish? (though that probably doesnt limit it down much for you)

Secondly, all you've done is assess and apply mitigation to that list based on practically no detail.

Do you not think the O/P would be wise to assess that list himself and apply it to the information and situation he has, as opposed to your blanket "my view is right"

Also, tell us what your experience is of high street retail and or cheese that makes you the overriding expert on this thread?

Edited by daemon on Friday 19th May 09:49

[48k]

OP there is a Cheese Shop at Liverpool Street station in London. It's been there for years and seems quite successful. No doubt a lot of that is down to the footfall and the demographic in the area. This is their website to give you some idea of what they do: https://www.cheesehub.com

Best of luck with whatever you decide to do, but I can't help agreeing with some of the earlier posts that being offered a unit and trying to decide what business to run in it as a sideline to your day job does not sound like the seed of a particularly successful venture.

[singlecoil]

48k said:

Best of luck with whatever you decide to do, but I can't help agreeing with some of the earlier posts that being offered a unit and trying to decide what business to run in it as a sideline to your day job does not sound like the seed of a particularly successful venture.

That's a good point but speaking as one who has spent a year searching for premises in my admittedly quite well off area, being offered a shop is the kind of luck (if luck it be) that makes it worth looking in to even if one wasn't actively seeking it. Same as being offered an old car for £100. It might be a bloody good investment or it might be scrap, it just depends on what it is. The fact that the offer came about through a personal contact doesn't rule it out or rule it in, it should be carefully considered and accurate information about it sought out.

[enemi]

Adult toys surely.

[daemon]

enemi said:

Adult toys surely.

Would that be right up your alley?