Apprentice safe extraction
Discussion
Hoppum said:
Have you spoken to Rocky about whether he actually wants a career in sign making? And have you given him any formal warnings on his performance yet?
It's entirely possible that through learning the job he's realised that he doesn't want to make signs but could possibly feel that he's made his bed and now has to lay in it.
If it was me in your position I'd (assuming this is a 8-5 Monday to Friday job) sit him down at 4pm on a Friday and explain what you've told us in your post, that this has to change and last week cannot happen again as it's just not sustainable for the business, and to consider this conversation a verbal warning on his performance (assuming you haven't already given him one).
Then follow this up with an escape route for him. Ask him if he's sure that this is what he wants to do with his life, that it's perfectly ok if he doesn't as you can part ways amicably and that he doesn't have to give you an answer now and can take the weekend to think it over.
If come Monday he's decided that he doesn't, problem solved. If he's decided he does he should have a renewed drive for the job and hopefully you can put together a plan to help him improve.
Like this solution - Rocky always said it wasn't something he initially wanted to do but grades didn't allow him to study - but then he seemed so impressed with the stuff he gets to learn and generally involved in the business life and proud of our achievements (w do stuff for high street brands and been featured in press on many occasions and Rocky got to play a part in it all)It's entirely possible that through learning the job he's realised that he doesn't want to make signs but could possibly feel that he's made his bed and now has to lay in it.
If it was me in your position I'd (assuming this is a 8-5 Monday to Friday job) sit him down at 4pm on a Friday and explain what you've told us in your post, that this has to change and last week cannot happen again as it's just not sustainable for the business, and to consider this conversation a verbal warning on his performance (assuming you haven't already given him one).
Then follow this up with an escape route for him. Ask him if he's sure that this is what he wants to do with his life, that it's perfectly ok if he doesn't as you can part ways amicably and that he doesn't have to give you an answer now and can take the weekend to think it over.
If come Monday he's decided that he doesn't, problem solved. If he's decided he does he should have a renewed drive for the job and hopefully you can put together a plan to help him improve.
jas xjr said:
should an apprentice be making and installing signs on his own ?
You can't leave an apprentice unattended (depends on age Rocky falls under the youngest category which can't be left in a building on their own)We would never allow Rocky to install anything on he's own.
After 9 months of intensive training, he should be able to prep artwork, panels, vinyl and or print and put it all together - we wouldn't expect him to venture into something more complicated than a flat panel or something bigger than 2x2m on his own.
My guess from the information given is Rocky flopped his GCSEs but couldn't leave education because of his age and was 'pushed' into this apprenticeship by his parents and advisors as he had few avenues open to him.
At his age he hasn't got alot of confidence despite of how his age group act and still need lots of steering in the right direction.
At his age he hasn't got alot of confidence despite of how his age group act and still need lots of steering in the right direction.
As an ex apprentice for a very large company who did the full 3 years I will say that in general apprentices are not really suited to small businesses.
When I was an apprentice there was a 1:1 rule. You were never really on your own for the whole 3 years. It was only once we passed out did we get to work alone. The cost must have been eye watering.
When I was an apprentice there was a 1:1 rule. You were never really on your own for the whole 3 years. It was only once we passed out did we get to work alone. The cost must have been eye watering.
sickrabbit said:
Hoofy said:
NoIP said:
Hoofy said:
NoIP said:
dacouch said:
The writing is quite literally on the wall for him
All the signs were there. 
Well - Rocky is still with us - he's contract ends in 2 months and I'm afraid it will not be renewed - unfortunately for him if he suffers from any of the mentioned here conditions I'm not skilled enough to help him - further more my pockets are not deep enough to fund his journey to recovery - I'm now waiting to be crucified for the above #takingcover
My boss has suddenly decided I need to be fired, despite putting my all in to my work. You can't make an apprentice redundant and the firm is going under....
As a plea, sit him down and tell him why and let him explain. Don't give him a verbal warning, written warning etc and fire him without listening. I too worm for a very small firm and believe apprentices should never go to a small firms ever.
As a plea, sit him down and tell him why and let him explain. Don't give him a verbal warning, written warning etc and fire him without listening. I too worm for a very small firm and believe apprentices should never go to a small firms ever.
Apprentices have different protections to standard staff so anyone here trotting out the usual "what does the contract say" and "use the performance procedure" etc need to realise they are wrong and not send someone down a blind alley.
You will have signed an "apprentice agreement" with the kid when he started and unfortunately for you that basically means he can't be made redundant and cannot be dismissed unless he does something which under normal employment would amount to gross misconduct and warrant immediate dismissal.
In situations like you this you need the support of the training provider and you should put in place a programme to bring him up to the standard required. Unfortunately if he doesn't respond positively you have to take him through to the first break point in this agreement and then not renew it.
Terminating an apprentice early for any other reason than the above will cost you dearly at an employment tribunal
You will have signed an "apprentice agreement" with the kid when he started and unfortunately for you that basically means he can't be made redundant and cannot be dismissed unless he does something which under normal employment would amount to gross misconduct and warrant immediate dismissal.
In situations like you this you need the support of the training provider and you should put in place a programme to bring him up to the standard required. Unfortunately if he doesn't respond positively you have to take him through to the first break point in this agreement and then not renew it.
Terminating an apprentice early for any other reason than the above will cost you dearly at an employment tribunal
Edited by craigjm on Friday 21st July 23:30
TooLateForAName said:
sickrabbit said:
Hoofy said:
NoIP said:
Hoofy said:
NoIP said:
dacouch said:
The writing is quite literally on the wall for him
All the signs were there. sickrabbit said:
Well - Rocky is still with us - he's contract ends in 2 months and I'm afraid it will not be renewed - unfortunately for him if he suffers from any of the mentioned here conditions I'm not skilled enough to help him - further more my pockets are not deep enough to fund his journey to recovery - I'm now waiting to be crucified for the above #takingcover
Not at all. You do right and you've lasted longer than I would have. Ignore the lefties commenting about how you must do more to support him - it's a crock of s
t and not your problem he's a useless . He's had plenty of chances and opportunities to buck his ideas up and every time he's bleated "I don't know" like a gormless wimp. Ring the school on Monday and tell them you want him gone.NoIP said:
sickrabbit said:
Well - Rocky is still with us - he's contract ends in 2 months and I'm afraid it will not be renewed - unfortunately for him if he suffers from any of the mentioned here conditions I'm not skilled enough to help him - further more my pockets are not deep enough to fund his journey to recovery - I'm now waiting to be crucified for the above #takingcover
Not at all. You do right and you've lasted longer than I would have. Ignore the lefties commenting about how you must do more to support him - it's a crock of st and not your problem he's a useless . He's had plenty of chances and opportunities to buck his ideas up and every time he's bleated "I don't know" like a gormless wimp. Ring the school on Monday and tell them you want him gone.t at all. Apprentices are protected far more heavily under employment law than normal workers. Your advice would be useless because he is not employed by "the school" so they have no liability and if he fires him then he is open to an employment tribunal claim with a payout of around 25k, I would be fuming if your advice, sorry I mean crock of st, cost me 25k as an employer I've had lots of dealings with apprentices. The issues that hit me is the younger generation just don't give a fk. So many young people have the chance to carve a career and can't apply themselves.
However, in this profit driven world too many companies expect too much. A genuine apprenticeship is 4 years long and requires proper instruction, guidance and college qualifications to back the apprenticeship.
If the job doesn't require years to develop the skills to do the job then it's not an apprenticeship. If you are trying to fire young people into advanced skills after months you are taking advantage of them and the system.
k. So many young people have the chance to carve a career and can't apply themselves.However, in this profit driven world too many companies expect too much. A genuine apprenticeship is 4 years long and requires proper instruction, guidance and college qualifications to back the apprenticeship.
If the job doesn't require years to develop the skills to do the job then it's not an apprenticeship. If you are trying to fire young people into advanced skills after months you are taking advantage of them and the system.
craigjm said:
It's not a crock of st at all. Apprentices are protected far more heavily under employment law than normal workers. Your advice would be useless because he is not employed by "the school" so they have no liability and if he fires him then he is open to an employment tribunal claim with a payout of around 25k, I would be fuming if your advice, sorry I mean crock of st, cost me 25k as an employer
If his contract ends (as the OP has said) then he's fully within his rights to bin him off and not renew it. Where does it say in employment law that apprentices cannot be binned off at the end of their term?t at all. Apprentices are protected far more heavily under employment law than normal workers. Your advice would be useless because he is not employed by "the school" so they have no liability and if he fires him then he is open to an employment tribunal claim with a payout of around 25k, I would be fuming if your advice, sorry I mean crock of st, cost me 25k as an employer http://www.personneltoday.com/hr/legal-qa-employer...
Personneltoday said:
Under what circumstances can an apprentice be dismissed?
It is only in the most serious cases of misconduct that an apprentice can be fairly dismissed.
The issue is, in essence, whether the conduct of the apprentice is such that it renders them impossible to teach. This could be by way of repeated wilful disobedience of direct instructions and/or a habitual neglect of specific duties.
His continual fIt is only in the most serious cases of misconduct that an apprentice can be fairly dismissed.
The issue is, in essence, whether the conduct of the apprentice is such that it renders them impossible to teach. This could be by way of repeated wilful disobedience of direct instructions and/or a habitual neglect of specific duties.
k ups when making the signs despite being told a thousand times by the OP how to do them would fall squarely within the highlighted bit above.https://www.crunch.co.uk/blog/small-business-advic...
crunch said:
Ending the Apprenticeship at the end of the training? If an apprentice’s employment is not renewed when their training ends then they will be treated as having been dismissed. The apprentice will be entitled to receive a written reason for dismissal and the ACAS Dismissal Code will apply (as for all employees). Because an apprenticeship contract is for a specific purpose – training – the contract will end on the completion of that training and the dismissal will therefore be for ‘Some Other Substantial Reason’ (SOSR). There is no need to provide a notice period of dismissal. There is no legal requirement to provide employment at the end of the apprenticeship but an employer may agree contractually to do this; and there is no duty on the employer to redeploy the apprentice into suitable alternative employment.
See the 2 months out, assign him to tea making or something that he can without arsing it up then bin him off.Poisson96 said:
My boss has suddenly decided I need to be fired, despite putting my all in to my work. You can't make an apprentice redundant and the firm is going under....
As a plea, sit him down and tell him why and let him explain. Don't give him a verbal warning, written warning etc and fire him without listening. I too worm for a very small firm and believe apprentices should never go to a small firms ever.
Please note I haven't fired him or gave him any official warnings or made him repay any loses - instead, I will allow him to finish the course support him and pay him until he's contracted finishes but I'm unable to employ him afterward for reasons mentioned...As a plea, sit him down and tell him why and let him explain. Don't give him a verbal warning, written warning etc and fire him without listening. I too worm for a very small firm and believe apprentices should never go to a small firms ever.
Driver101 said:
I've had lots of dealings with apprentices. The issues that hit me is the younger generation just don't give a fk. So many young people have the chance to carve a career and can't apply themselves.
However, in this profit driven world too many companies expect too much. A genuine apprenticeship is 4 years long and requires proper instruction, guidance and college qualifications to back the apprenticeship.
If the job doesn't require years to develop the skills to do the job then it's not an apprenticeship. If you are trying to fire young people into advanced skills after months you are taking advantage of them and the system.
I would agree in general but how does one react when after 9 months of intensive training Rocky inserts a roll of banner with 1ft of the material left on it knowing he needs to print a 10m banner - he then tries to pull it through the machine standing in front of it without a result (the roll end is stuck on the cardboard core he just inserted into the back of the machine) and tells me that the machine is jammed - when asked how much stuff he's putting in vs how much he needs all we get is '...erm I don't know...' we can tell straight away not one brain cell was engaged to find the answer it's the 'do i give a frog' auto reply system which is engaged...and that's what hurts...k. So many young people have the chance to carve a career and can't apply themselves.However, in this profit driven world too many companies expect too much. A genuine apprenticeship is 4 years long and requires proper instruction, guidance and college qualifications to back the apprenticeship.
If the job doesn't require years to develop the skills to do the job then it's not an apprenticeship. If you are trying to fire young people into advanced skills after months you are taking advantage of them and the system.
NoIP said:
craigjm said:
It's not a crock of st at all. Apprentices are protected far more heavily under employment law than normal workers. Your advice would be useless because he is not employed by "the school" so they have no liability and if he fires him then he is open to an employment tribunal claim with a payout of around 25k, I would be fuming if your advice, sorry I mean crock of st, cost me 25k as an employer
If his contract ends (as the OP has said) then he's fully within his rights to bin him off and not renew it. Where does it say in employment law that apprentices cannot be binned off at the end of their term?t at all. Apprentices are protected far more heavily under employment law than normal workers. Your advice would be useless because he is not employed by "the school" so they have no liability and if he fires him then he is open to an employment tribunal claim with a payout of around 25k, I would be fuming if your advice, sorry I mean crock of st, cost me 25k as an employer http://www.personneltoday.com/hr/legal-qa-employer...
Personneltoday said:
Under what circumstances can an apprentice be dismissed?
It is only in the most serious cases of misconduct that an apprentice can be fairly dismissed.
The issue is, in essence, whether the conduct of the apprentice is such that it renders them impossible to teach. This could be by way of repeated wilful disobedience of direct instructions and/or a habitual neglect of specific duties.
His continual fIt is only in the most serious cases of misconduct that an apprentice can be fairly dismissed.
The issue is, in essence, whether the conduct of the apprentice is such that it renders them impossible to teach. This could be by way of repeated wilful disobedience of direct instructions and/or a habitual neglect of specific duties.
k ups when making the signs despite being told a thousand times by the OP how to do them would fall squarely within the highlighted bit above.https://www.crunch.co.uk/blog/small-business-advic...
crunch said:
Ending the Apprenticeship at the end of the training? If an apprentice’s employment is not renewed when their training ends then they will be treated as having been dismissed. The apprentice will be entitled to receive a written reason for dismissal and the ACAS Dismissal Code will apply (as for all employees). Because an apprenticeship contract is for a specific purpose – training – the contract will end on the completion of that training and the dismissal will therefore be for ‘Some Other Substantial Reason’ (SOSR). There is no need to provide a notice period of dismissal. There is no legal requirement to provide employment at the end of the apprenticeship but an employer may agree contractually to do this; and there is no duty on the employer to redeploy the apprentice into suitable alternative employment.
See the 2 months out, assign him to tea making or something that he can without arsing it up then bin him off.Gassing Station | Business | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff