Help me convince my partner that MLM is bad news...
Discussion
lastofthev8s said:
Zoon said:
My wifes friend did Forever Living, was supposedly making £10k a month, 15 holidays a year and a new car.
Packed her job in that she'd had for over 10 years to do it full time.
18 months later, working back in an office and getting divorced.
It was Forever Living that the two people I know were / are involved with. Off to look for the latest update....Packed her job in that she'd had for over 10 years to do it full time.
18 months later, working back in an office and getting divorced.
Weirdly the page has been deleted
Vandenberg said:
MLMs are fantastic if you want to cut down your circle of friends and family.
My Sil got involved with a couple of MLMs, and within a year had managed to alienate just about everyone she knew, she finally killed off some long standing friendships when going on about some Hawaiian flower juice could cure everything from eczema to stage 4 cancer and she had testimonials from the cured. Sheila from coventry was riddled with cancer at deaths door, she drink 6 cases of flower juice, now she is better than ever and lives in a big house, has 3 time share apartments in Magaluf and drives a convertible evoque.
Snake oil praying on the gullible and daft.
Hahahaha.My Sil got involved with a couple of MLMs, and within a year had managed to alienate just about everyone she knew, she finally killed off some long standing friendships when going on about some Hawaiian flower juice could cure everything from eczema to stage 4 cancer and she had testimonials from the cured. Sheila from coventry was riddled with cancer at deaths door, she drink 6 cases of flower juice, now she is better than ever and lives in a big house, has 3 time share apartments in Magaluf and drives a convertible evoque.
Snake oil praying on the gullible and daft.
I think there are maybe 8-10 women on my Facebook.
At least half of them are MLMs in some way or another.
Those who are, generally, are pretty stupid and tend to have mediocore jobs. No offense. They are nice enough people.
That and JuicePlus or whatever lip balm it is....stop it.
I had a go with Herbalife about 20 years ago. I wasn't working at the time and thought it might be a good way to bring in some money. I wasn't struggling as I had a nice redundancy payout and I'm pretty sensible with money anyway, but I ended up doing the usual thing of buying a bunch of stock and then getting very little support to sell it!
(I'm not a great salesman.)
I started to ask awkward questions about how much of the product you were supposed to use - the main product is meal replacement shakes and the tub of powder was supposed to last a month, but if you followed the instructions on the pack, it would last about 2.5 weeks. Asked the question a few times and never got a response, but also didn't get any more pressure to buy more stuff, so I guess they'd figured out that that was all I was going to spend with them, so they left me alone.
I ended up using the stuff myself and my Mum & Dad bought some of it off me - I think I gave them the rest!! By this time I'd got myself a proper job, so wasn't too bothered. TBH, I thought the stuff was ok and I might even buy it again if I could find somebody who'd just sell it to me and not try to get me to buy into the business.
In the interest of balance, Mrs FTR has had a go at a couple in recent years and we do actually know some people who do pretty well out of MLM businesses. Mrs FTR is American and she tries Arbonne and got into it just as it was launching over here. She spent quite a lot of money in the first year/18 months, to the point where we had to have words about how much she was spending on the products. After that she got the message; she'd already pretty much given up on selling the stuff (and the business), so she was happy to keep buying what we wanted to use (I'm still using the face wash - just) but she's recently fallen out with them, so we won't be using the stuff any more.
One of her high school friends is doing rather well out of Arbonne though - she actually has a white Merc!
The more recent one was Younique, who were again just launching here when another friend in the States got her onto. She actually signed up on launch day! At the time, they actually had a USP - the fibre mascara was a really good product. However, they had no exclusivity on the product, so everybody does a version now.
My Mrs actually did reasonably well out of Younique - not enough to live on, but she managed to get about £1500 out of them over a few months - and that was net and tied to her NI number, so had to be declared! After that, they started to have supply issues, the quality of the products seemed to suffer and the high street brands started to market fibre mascara. The love affair was over!
The friend in the US who put Mrs FTR onto Younique is some kind of genius level MLMer, Younique wasn't her first and she's now moved onto something else. She always seems to do well out of these things too.
(I'm not a great salesman.)
I started to ask awkward questions about how much of the product you were supposed to use - the main product is meal replacement shakes and the tub of powder was supposed to last a month, but if you followed the instructions on the pack, it would last about 2.5 weeks. Asked the question a few times and never got a response, but also didn't get any more pressure to buy more stuff, so I guess they'd figured out that that was all I was going to spend with them, so they left me alone.
I ended up using the stuff myself and my Mum & Dad bought some of it off me - I think I gave them the rest!! By this time I'd got myself a proper job, so wasn't too bothered. TBH, I thought the stuff was ok and I might even buy it again if I could find somebody who'd just sell it to me and not try to get me to buy into the business.
In the interest of balance, Mrs FTR has had a go at a couple in recent years and we do actually know some people who do pretty well out of MLM businesses. Mrs FTR is American and she tries Arbonne and got into it just as it was launching over here. She spent quite a lot of money in the first year/18 months, to the point where we had to have words about how much she was spending on the products. After that she got the message; she'd already pretty much given up on selling the stuff (and the business), so she was happy to keep buying what we wanted to use (I'm still using the face wash - just) but she's recently fallen out with them, so we won't be using the stuff any more.
One of her high school friends is doing rather well out of Arbonne though - she actually has a white Merc!
The more recent one was Younique, who were again just launching here when another friend in the States got her onto. She actually signed up on launch day! At the time, they actually had a USP - the fibre mascara was a really good product. However, they had no exclusivity on the product, so everybody does a version now.
My Mrs actually did reasonably well out of Younique - not enough to live on, but she managed to get about £1500 out of them over a few months - and that was net and tied to her NI number, so had to be declared! After that, they started to have supply issues, the quality of the products seemed to suffer and the high street brands started to market fibre mascara. The love affair was over!
The friend in the US who put Mrs FTR onto Younique is some kind of genius level MLMer, Younique wasn't her first and she's now moved onto something else. She always seems to do well out of these things too.
Eric Mc said:
"Doing well" from running a genuine business or "doing well" by flogging the idea to others?
Is "doing well" financially the only criteria by which you measure what are misleading selling techniques or perhaps even marginally fraudulent techniques in some cases?
Exactly. There is a local chap who got in early on Herbalife and has built a 5 bed detached on a couple of acre plot, obligatory Mercs and Porsche in the drive etc. People say how well he did, but all I can see is how well he ripped off 95% of the people he recruited.Is "doing well" financially the only criteria by which you measure what are misleading selling techniques or perhaps even marginally fraudulent techniques in some cases?
Saw this made me laugh:
1. Make a list of all your friends. (This is the same thing you are told to do when you join a pyramid.)
2. Estimate how much money you will spend over two years on entry fees to distributor meetings & conferences.
3. Estimate your costs for travel and accommodation for those two years' worth of meetings. Include the cost of fancy clothes, accessories, jewellery, hair styling and dry cleaning so that you can look successful.
4. Estimate the cost of the tools which you would be expected to purchase in a two-year period.
5. Estimate how much it will cost over the next two years to hire cleaners, gardeners, buy food and drink when out etc as you can’t fulfil these duties when you are at meetings or out several nights a week showing the plan.
6. Add up the amounts in Steps 2 to 5.
7. Add £3,500 for incidental expenses - petrol for the car when out showing the plan, magic markers, butcher's paper for drawing circles on, breath freshener, tooth whitening paste, ...
8. If you don't have a mobile phone, add another £750. (Being always accessible is important. Same goes for internet access, consider the laptop you need if your current one fails.
9. It is important to look successful, so if your car is more than four years old talk to your local BMW or Mercedes Benz dealer about a lease.
10. Inquire at either or both of the local country club and gym about membership. Again, leave out these costs for the moment, your full time job can support those. (There is no need to budget for any leisure equipment - membership is what matters, not playing games. You won't have any spare time, anyway.)
11. Look at the total estimated expenditure after Step 8.
12. Subtract a few £100 for projected income from product sales.
13. Subtract a few £200 for projected real savings from buying overpriced products at a discount as you’re a distributor.
14. Write out a cheque for three quarters of the remaining amount, made out to your local children's hospital or some other suitable charity. (This will be a legitimate tax deduction against your ACTUAL full time job. Despite what the pyramid salesmen tell you, most taxation authorities will not allow you to deduct the costs of participation in a multi-level marketing scheme. The costs are so much greater than the income that these activities are not considered to be serious or viable businesses.)
15. Spend the remaining quarter of the money on a big party and invite all those friends that you listed in Step 1.
16. At a suitable time during the party, stand on a chair and tell everyone that the night was paid for with money that you didn't waste by chasing an impossible dream. Also promise them that you will never ring them up and offer them a business opportunity.
17. Enjoy an honest, productive, friend-filled life.
1. Make a list of all your friends. (This is the same thing you are told to do when you join a pyramid.)
2. Estimate how much money you will spend over two years on entry fees to distributor meetings & conferences.
3. Estimate your costs for travel and accommodation for those two years' worth of meetings. Include the cost of fancy clothes, accessories, jewellery, hair styling and dry cleaning so that you can look successful.
4. Estimate the cost of the tools which you would be expected to purchase in a two-year period.
5. Estimate how much it will cost over the next two years to hire cleaners, gardeners, buy food and drink when out etc as you can’t fulfil these duties when you are at meetings or out several nights a week showing the plan.
6. Add up the amounts in Steps 2 to 5.
7. Add £3,500 for incidental expenses - petrol for the car when out showing the plan, magic markers, butcher's paper for drawing circles on, breath freshener, tooth whitening paste, ...
8. If you don't have a mobile phone, add another £750. (Being always accessible is important. Same goes for internet access, consider the laptop you need if your current one fails.
9. It is important to look successful, so if your car is more than four years old talk to your local BMW or Mercedes Benz dealer about a lease.
10. Inquire at either or both of the local country club and gym about membership. Again, leave out these costs for the moment, your full time job can support those. (There is no need to budget for any leisure equipment - membership is what matters, not playing games. You won't have any spare time, anyway.)
11. Look at the total estimated expenditure after Step 8.
12. Subtract a few £100 for projected income from product sales.
13. Subtract a few £200 for projected real savings from buying overpriced products at a discount as you’re a distributor.
14. Write out a cheque for three quarters of the remaining amount, made out to your local children's hospital or some other suitable charity. (This will be a legitimate tax deduction against your ACTUAL full time job. Despite what the pyramid salesmen tell you, most taxation authorities will not allow you to deduct the costs of participation in a multi-level marketing scheme. The costs are so much greater than the income that these activities are not considered to be serious or viable businesses.)
15. Spend the remaining quarter of the money on a big party and invite all those friends that you listed in Step 1.
16. At a suitable time during the party, stand on a chair and tell everyone that the night was paid for with money that you didn't waste by chasing an impossible dream. Also promise them that you will never ring them up and offer them a business opportunity.
17. Enjoy an honest, productive, friend-filled life.
I rarely post in business but couldn't help but contributing to this thread.
I got 'recruited' into NSA - yea the water filters business, remember that? Probably about 1993..
In a nutshell I gave up my job in sales went full time, travelled and lived in Belgium and Holland for two years recruiting people over there.
Cost me a fortune, didn't make a penny but with all the distributor 'meeting' you attend (3/5 a week) where you bring along new people (with hindsight to start the brainwashing process) you just can't help but convince yourself constantly that what you are doing is amazing - even to the point of convincing yourself you are earning money when you aren't! Negativity is shunned and if you leave you have 'failed' and a loser.
I simply couldn't carry on abroad any longer and fed up off living on beans and corned beef I returned 3 years later with nothing.
On the positive side I met some very pretty Dutch girls, some fantastic people (outside the business) and it taught me an awful lot so I don't regret it one iota.
The basic fundamental issue is NO ONE sells the products. EVERYONE recruits more people which is where any money is.
I sympathise with the OP, I would not be told at the time either.
I got 'recruited' into NSA - yea the water filters business, remember that? Probably about 1993..
In a nutshell I gave up my job in sales went full time, travelled and lived in Belgium and Holland for two years recruiting people over there.
Cost me a fortune, didn't make a penny but with all the distributor 'meeting' you attend (3/5 a week) where you bring along new people (with hindsight to start the brainwashing process) you just can't help but convince yourself constantly that what you are doing is amazing - even to the point of convincing yourself you are earning money when you aren't! Negativity is shunned and if you leave you have 'failed' and a loser.
I simply couldn't carry on abroad any longer and fed up off living on beans and corned beef I returned 3 years later with nothing.
On the positive side I met some very pretty Dutch girls, some fantastic people (outside the business) and it taught me an awful lot so I don't regret it one iota.
The basic fundamental issue is NO ONE sells the products. EVERYONE recruits more people which is where any money is.
I sympathise with the OP, I would not be told at the time either.
Eric Mc said:
"Doing well" from running a genuine business or "doing well" by flogging the idea to others?
Is "doing well" financially the only criteria by which you measure what are misleading selling techniques or perhaps even marginally fraudulent techniques in some cases?
Recruiting others to sell the products is part of the business model. She does also sell the product directly, what makes you imply that recruitment isn't a "genuine" business?Is "doing well" financially the only criteria by which you measure what are misleading selling techniques or perhaps even marginally fraudulent techniques in some cases?
You are also making assumptions about the selling techniques - in our case it was mostly about the product, with a little "I bought a TV with the proceeds" (which was true) thrown in. I appreciate your point that there can be a lot of "selling the dream" and that people are encouraged to be disingenuous about how much of that dream is paid for by the MLM.
I was simply making the point that it is possible to make money out of MLM - like most things, it will depend on how much effort any individual is prepared to put into the business. You might argue that the business succeeds at the expense of others, but surely at some level, this is true of every business?
Of course "normal" recruitment can be a viable business.
The problem with these set ups is that the core of "doing well" depends on you gathering together more and more sellers. In other words, a pyramid structure of layer upon layer of sellers. What the product or service happens to be is almost irrelevant. The drive is to get more and more people signed up.
It's total nonsense and is nothing more than a pyramid scam. People who fall for this are staking their hopes on irrational desires to accumulate wealth rather than having any real love for running a genuine commercial activity.
I've seen this kind of thing so many times and I have never come across a single person who actually made a profit.
Now, if they want to do this as a hobby and they enjoy the "cult" aspects (the meetings, the togetherness, the pep talks, the stays in fancy hotels), that's fine. But that is not running a business. That is enjoying a hobby. And the normal definition of a hobby is that you are doing something you enjoy and are not concerned that it costs you.
The problem with these set ups is that the core of "doing well" depends on you gathering together more and more sellers. In other words, a pyramid structure of layer upon layer of sellers. What the product or service happens to be is almost irrelevant. The drive is to get more and more people signed up.
It's total nonsense and is nothing more than a pyramid scam. People who fall for this are staking their hopes on irrational desires to accumulate wealth rather than having any real love for running a genuine commercial activity.
I've seen this kind of thing so many times and I have never come across a single person who actually made a profit.
Now, if they want to do this as a hobby and they enjoy the "cult" aspects (the meetings, the togetherness, the pep talks, the stays in fancy hotels), that's fine. But that is not running a business. That is enjoying a hobby. And the normal definition of a hobby is that you are doing something you enjoy and are not concerned that it costs you.
Eric Mc said:
And what is the actual business?
What product(s) are sold?
What services does it provide?
When the pep talk is all about outcome and nothing to do with the nitty gritty aspects of running a business you know you are looking at a cult type scam.
Hey Eric,What product(s) are sold?
What services does it provide?
When the pep talk is all about outcome and nothing to do with the nitty gritty aspects of running a business you know you are looking at a cult type scam.
Products - Lotions & Potions basically. Anti Ageing, whitening toothpastes etc etc
Services - Apart from draining the purses of the girls I'm not sure there is a service.
The PEP talk is definitely about the dream rather than the day to day. To be honest, my partner doesn't think like a ruthless powerfully built company director type, the actual business probably confuses her a bit but what she is, probably more than me, is a grafter. With the right product offering and someone behind the scenes keeping an eye on figures she should do well.
PS - under my main account we've spoken many times and I always your input on this sub section of the forum.
simonspider said:
Cost me a fortune, didn't make a penny but with all the distributor 'meeting' you attend (3/5 a week) where you bring along new people (with hindsight to start the brainwashing process) you just can't help but convince yourself constantly that what you are doing is amazing - even to the point of convincing yourself you are earning money when you aren't!
I sympathise with the OP, I would not be told at the time either.
This really struck a chord. Just when I thought she was losing the faith, a distributor meeting or launch event would come and she'd be sucked right back in with all these lying women trying to convince them and other around them that they were making moneyI sympathise with the OP, I would not be told at the time either.
Frankthered said:
Eric Mc said:
"Doing well" from running a genuine business or "doing well" by flogging the idea to others?
Is "doing well" financially the only criteria by which you measure what are misleading selling techniques or perhaps even marginally fraudulent techniques in some cases?
Recruiting others to sell the products is part of the business model. She does also sell the product directly, what makes you imply that recruitment isn't a "genuine" business?Is "doing well" financially the only criteria by which you measure what are misleading selling techniques or perhaps even marginally fraudulent techniques in some cases?
Have had some experience with this. Years ago, fresh out of school almost i was approached and promised the earth by some Amway representatives. Thought i would go along to one of their 'meetings' to see what it was all about but even at this point i had a feeling something was up.
within 10 minutes i walked out - it was 'cult' - people were falsely happy, over the top.
I remember walking in and hearing Belinda Carlisle - we dream the same dream then seeing boats, champagne, supercars and smiley children on Sunkist beeches on the screens....
Then later in life a few of my friends from school on my FB started messing with Herbalife and some alo vera drink crap and every post was 'how amazing it is to be able to see my kids plays during the day wthout having to answer to anybody..'
and
'i am so glad i took the risk 3 months ago to be my own boss, life has never been so good and i can now afford all the things my kids want and they love me more for it...'
un-friended.
then you see these 'comparison' photos... which literally make me laugh out loud.
within 10 minutes i walked out - it was 'cult' - people were falsely happy, over the top.
I remember walking in and hearing Belinda Carlisle - we dream the same dream then seeing boats, champagne, supercars and smiley children on Sunkist beeches on the screens....
Then later in life a few of my friends from school on my FB started messing with Herbalife and some alo vera drink crap and every post was 'how amazing it is to be able to see my kids plays during the day wthout having to answer to anybody..'
and
'i am so glad i took the risk 3 months ago to be my own boss, life has never been so good and i can now afford all the things my kids want and they love me more for it...'
un-friended.
then you see these 'comparison' photos... which literally make me laugh out loud.
If this doesn't look like a religious cult, I don't know what does..
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