Invoice dispute, opinoin sought

[Marcellus]

If you had artwork the correct size would you be able to use them again or was it a one off exhibition/stand?

My thoughts being if you could you say the to the supplier "I will certainly pay your invoice as soon as you supply the materials to the defined and agreed specification".

[RicksAlfas]

JZZ30 said:

I haven't ignored. I explained my problems with it and asked him to reconsider his invoice.

He flatly refused and said its payable in full as I 'happily' accepted the panels

I'm thinking maybe offer to settle for one third, he can swallow a third and approach D for a third?

Sound reasonable?

Apologies. I didn't know you had tried to discuss it with him.
It sounds reasonable to me, but he sounds like he might be a nutter!

Do you have a good previous relationship with him?

[SpeckledJim]

I think Mr C is showing a LOT of front. I'd maybe take the advice above of making a few small offers. 20%, 25%, 30%.

But at the end of the day he made you look a mug in front of your client, directly cost you a reduction in your fee, almost certainly caused you to lose A's future business, and he reckons that's a 100% job well done?

I think C is being ridiculous.

[talksthetorque]

A few thoughts from someone in a different part of the industry.


29 8' x 4' x 3mm Foamex Boards - about £10 each?
Cutting down to size - 1 hour?
Extra fitting time and 5 rolls of double sided. £150?


Did your customer get the artwork to you on time according to your contract?
If not they can't exercise SLA clauses in their favour as they missed the deadline for you to be able to reprint if necessary.

Perhaps the maximum C can charge is
a) 90% of printing costs as they cut 10% of the images off.
b) 0% of cutting costs as they did that wrong and acknowledged it.

[JZZ30]

Marcellus said:

If you had artwork the correct size would you be able to use them again or was it a one off exhibition/stand?

My thoughts being if you could you say the to the supplier "I will certainly pay your invoice as soon as you supply the materials to the defined and agreed specification".

Specific to that one client and i don't think they will be calling me again.

[Lemming Train]

JZZ30 said:

Marcellus said:

If you had artwork the correct size would you be able to use them again or was it a one off exhibition/stand?

My thoughts being if you could you say the to the supplier "I will certainly pay your invoice as soon as you supply the materials to the defined and agreed specification".

Specific to that one client and i don't think they will be calling me again.

So not only has he completely failed to deliver what he agreed to, he has also cost you a client and future business! I wouldn't be offering him a penny. If he does go ahead with his claim just counter claim for lost business. Through his failings he put you in a position where you were left with no choice but to do what you had to do to try to retain your own client - which ultimately failed.

Does he know/have you told him that you used his work at your exhibition? If not then this gives you more options.

[Europa1]

Lemming Train said:

If he does go ahead with his claim just counter claim for lost business.

I'd have a long hard think before trying that.

[JZZ30]

Lemming Train said:

Does he know/have you told him that you used his work at your exhibition? If not then this gives you more options.

I think its best just to be open and honest about everything.

I also think trying to counter claim in court about maybe losing future business is a non starter.

As it stands, I'm losing a little money overall on this contract, whatever i pay 'C' increases the loss, that's why I'm so annoyed. Hopefully a deal can be struck before it gets in front of a judge.

[Lemming Train]

JZZ30 said:

I think its best just to be open and honest about everything.

I also think trying to counter claim in court about maybe losing future business is a non starter.

As it stands, I'm losing a little money overall on this contract, whatever i pay 'C' increases the loss, that's why I'm so annoyed. Hopefully a deal can be struck before it gets in front of a judge.

If you have solid evidence to support that then you're in a strong position (assuming that's because of C's failings).

[HoHoHo]

So to clarify we’re talking about £2000 here?

I own an exhibition company (22 years) and we sub out various bits and pieces we can’t produce ourselves - most do as you know.

If I were in your position and had provided a clear order to C with artwork sized correctly and then presumably you signed off proofs (which I hope you did?) which again may or may not have shown sizes on the PDF’s only to receive incorrect panels (or whatever). Given you were about to build and he couldn’t help rectify the situation I would have expected the least C could do would be to say use what you can and I’m very sorry. Sadly if that cost you money redesigning then that’s down to you, a bummer but there you go. Having built stands for so long I think you did a mighty job doing what you did and you must have built it with your fingers covering your eyes as you did as you saw how bad it was!

I wouldn’t expect a bill for the first lot and I’d expect him at the very least to say have them FOC and are they being used again? If so I’ll get them right and then invoice you once they’re delivered.

We spent a lot of money with various companies and have over the years been in not identical but similar circumstances. Specialist print not QC’d correctly or whatever and that has on one occasion for example meant large items being remanufactured overnight and then shipped at my suppliers cost to Germany so we could complete the build at no cost to us.....but equally we didn’t ask for anything else other than the job to be correct please and they were fortunately able to help out.

We have built up great working relationships with suppliers and spent literally a small fortune with some, some accounts running into millions in some cases. Throughout our trading life we have ensured we pay all if our bills on time every time so if and when the st hits the fan we’re looked after and I’m sure you’re much the same.

Frankly if this is an existing supplier he’s treating you like a right whatsit or if he’s a new supplier hes got no idea how to run s business. Either way I would suggest he’s got bigger problems than you on his plate.

As I asked at the beginning - are we taking about £2000 here?

Seems totally OTT for such a small amount of money and I’d be nicely making him aware of exactly where he stands.

Edited by HoHoHo on Saturday 1st September 07:24

[NDA]

flatplane said:

Company A – The Client
Company B – The Contractor
Company C – The sub-contractor
Company D – The sub sub-contractor

Has Company A paid Company B for the work? I might have missed this - but didn't spot it.

[JZZ30]

HoHoHo said:

So to clarify we’re talking about £2000 here?

I own an exhibition company (22 years) and we sub out various bits and pieces we can’t produce ourselves - most do as you know.

If I were in your position and had provided a clear order to C with artwork sized correctly and then presumably you signed off proofs (which I hope you did?) which again may or may not have shown sizes on the PDF’s only to receive incorrect panels (or whatever). Given you were about to build and he couldn’t help rectify the situation I would have expected the least C could do would be to say use what you can and I’m very sorry. Sadly if that cost you money redesigning then that’s down to you, a bummer but there you go. Having built stands for so long I think you did a mighty job doing what you did and you must have built it with your fingers covering your eyes as you did as you saw how bad it was!

I wouldn’t expect a bill for the first lot and I’d expect him at the very least to say have them FOC and are they being used again? If so I’ll get them right and then invoice you once they’re delivered.

We spent a lot of money with various companies and have over the years been in not identical but similar circumstances. Specialist print not QC’d correctly or whatever and that has on one occasion for example meant large items being remanufactured overnight and then shipped at my suppliers cost to Germany so we could complete the build at no cost to us.....but equally we didn’t ask for anything else other than the job to be correct please and they were fortunately able to help out.

We have built up great working relationships with suppliers and spent literally a small fortune with some, some accounts running into millions in some cases. Throughout our trading life we have ensured we pay all if our bills on time every time so if and when the st hits the fan we’re looked after and I’m sure you’re much the same.

Frankly if this is an existing supplier he’s treating you like a right whatsit or if he’s a new supplier hes got no idea how to run s business. Either way I would suggest he’s got bigger problems than you on his plate.

As I asked at the beginning - are we taking about £2000 here?

Seems totally OTT for such a small amount of money and I’d be nicely making him aware of exactly where he stands.

This sums up my my feelings on the matter very well. Thanks.

Its a new supplier I tried because they recently moved into the industrial estate we are based in and it would have been handy to get a good working relationship.

Its under £2000. Close to a point I'd rather just pay it than spend a day in court, but to think that he will profit from this grates on me! I'll see how it plays out over the next few weeks.

My worry and reason for stating the thread is that if it went to court, it may be taken at a very basic level of - 'panels were created and i used them - pay up' and that view seems to be supported by a few posters so quite possibly by a judge too.

Edit: to answer NDA, yes, A has paid a negotiated, reduced fee.

[HoHoHo]

JZZ30 said:

HoHoHo said:

So to clarify we’re talking about £2000 here?

I own an exhibition company (22 years) and we sub out various bits and pieces we can’t produce ourselves - most do as you know.

If I were in your position and had provided a clear order to C with artwork sized correctly and then presumably you signed off proofs (which I hope you did?) which again may or may not have shown sizes on the PDF’s only to receive incorrect panels (or whatever). Given you were about to build and he couldn’t help rectify the situation I would have expected the least C could do would be to say use what you can and I’m very sorry. Sadly if that cost you money redesigning then that’s down to you, a bummer but there you go. Having built stands for so long I think you did a mighty job doing what you did and you must have built it with your fingers covering your eyes as you did as you saw how bad it was!

I wouldn’t expect a bill for the first lot and I’d expect him at the very least to say have them FOC and are they being used again? If so I’ll get them right and then invoice you once they’re delivered.

We spent a lot of money with various companies and have over the years been in not identical but similar circumstances. Specialist print not QC’d correctly or whatever and that has on one occasion for example meant large items being remanufactured overnight and then shipped at my suppliers cost to Germany so we could complete the build at no cost to us.....but equally we didn’t ask for anything else other than the job to be correct please and they were fortunately able to help out.

We have built up great working relationships with suppliers and spent literally a small fortune with some, some accounts running into millions in some cases. Throughout our trading life we have ensured we pay all if our bills on time every time so if and when the st hits the fan we’re looked after and I’m sure you’re much the same.

Frankly if this is an existing supplier he’s treating you like a right whatsit or if he’s a new supplier hes got no idea how to run s business. Either way I would suggest he’s got bigger problems than you on his plate.

As I asked at the beginning - are we taking about £2000 here?

Seems totally OTT for such a small amount of money and I’d be nicely making him aware of exactly where he stands.

This sums up my my feelings on the matter very well. Thanks.

Its a new supplier I tried because they recently moved into the industrial estate we are based in and it would have been handy to get a good working relationship.

Its under £2000. Close to a point I'd rather just pay it than spend a day in court, but to think that he will profit from this grates on me! I'll see how it plays out over the next few weeks.

My worry and reason for stating the thread is that if it went to court, it may be taken at a very basic level of - 'panels were created and i used them - pay up' and that view seems to be supported by a few posters so quite possibly by a judge too.

Edit: to answer NDA, yes, A has paid a negotiated, reduced fee.

If you’ve been paid by your client albeit with a part credit against the invoice I would pop around to his industrial unit and suggest nicely he reduce his cost and offer him a grand.

If he says no, let him take you to court.

Sounds like a right tt if you ask me and I doubt very much if a) he takes you to court or b) he will win.

[Lemming Train]

JZZ30 said:

Edit: to answer NDA, yes, A has paid a negotiated, reduced fee.

Do you have a good rapport with the decision makers at company A? Obviously they'll be pretty pissed off over the whole thing but presumably after your explanations and sincere apologies will understand that it wasn't your fault directly. If they're not frothing with rage and seem like decent people then I would be looking at offering to do their next gig for free or at a vastly reduced price to show how sorry you are for the cock up and want to keep their business. Only you will know what the potential is for future, regular business from them but it's something I've done when one of my lot got 2 similar orders mixed up and the st hit the fan. In my case my olive branch 'offer' cost me the best part of £4k due to an oversight but in the long term we've done 200x that amount in new business from them over the years and also opened up a lot of doors, so well worth it.

[NDA]

JZZ30 said:

Edit: to answer NDA, yes, A has paid a negotiated, reduced fee.

So you've earned a lower fee as a result of their cock up....?

It seems obvious to me that you should be paying a lower amount. I would be tempted to pay them, say, £1200 with a 'full and final settlement' letter explaining why you are not paying the full amount.

If they want to take you to court, let them go ahead.

[4x4Tyke]

Lemming Train said:

"Everyone has a right to sort out a cock up" - based on what? Was that in the contract? I suspect not.

The 'reasonable man test'; would a ordinary man on the Clapham Omnibus consider that a reasonable action? The opportunity to repair or replace is a common remedy in sales/returns. However in this case company C did have that opportunity and refuse it, because machine broken, outsourced & insufficient time. I think based on the information provided C has a very weak case. The make do and mend approach was essentially forced on B, they had no other reasonable approach.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_man_on_the_Claph...

Q for OP. Did B waiver any part of the invoice to A?

From a business perspective, B should probably look to how they can better manage lead timescales, but that is a self interest aspect, I don't see it entering into the legal case.

Edited by 4x4Tyke on Saturday 1st September 12:04

[Lemming Train]

4x4Tyke said:

Lemming Train said:

"Everyone has a right to sort out a cock up" - based on what? Was that in the contract? I suspect not.

The 'reasonable man test'; would a ordinary man on the Clapham Omnibus consider that a reasonable action? The opportunity to repair or replace is a common remedy in sales/returns. However in this case company C did have that opportunity and refuse it, because machine broken, outsourced & insufficient time

Well quite. That was my point : Sure, sort it if you can, but the deadline date is the still the same. They couldn't deliver the correct product by the deadline so Rick's argument that they have a right to sort out the cock up is irrelevant as there wasn't enough time to fix it and nothing in the contract allowing them to deliver at some arbitrary point in the future.

[loafer123]

My view is that accepting the mis-sized panels is simply B trying to minimise the loss caused by C's failure.

If they had not accepted the panels, A would have presumably terminated B's contract and losses would extend to further future loss of business.

The very minimum that C should accept is their normal fee less the reduced fee B has had to accept due to their failure.

In reality, I would argue that A and B have lost more than that and B should receive the correct panels before being due to pay anything at all.

[Lemming Train]

Just remembered this thread. Any updates, JZZ30?

[anonymous-user]

About the as simple a dispute as you can have in principle, B is liable to C either under the Contract or a quantum merit basis, B's cost are unforeseeable and consequential and C is not liable.
The only question is C will win the battle but it will never have another order from B.