Making tax digital
Discussion
Eric Mc said:
Initially they said they would not allow spreadsheets to be used as a source recording system for MTD. Then they relented (following massive pressure from industry and commerce) and said you could use a spreadsheet as long as you submitted through bridging software.
That one move renders the whole initiative a complete waste of time as that blows the concept of an audit trail being submitted on a regular basis to HMRC out of the water.
I think this is a misunderstanding of the history. The issue of Digital Links remains live although it is not being enforced for now. There has not been a suggestion that the audit trail itself gets submitted to HMRC merely that it should exist.That one move renders the whole initiative a complete waste of time as that blows the concept of an audit trail being submitted on a regular basis to HMRC out of the water.
An audit trail ALWAYS exists. I've been involved in the accounting game for over 40 years and there is always a trail. HMRC are creating additional work for no purpose.
They have ALWAYS required that business keep "proper books and records". The difference now is that they are trying to insist on a very narrow description as to what constitutes "proper".
They have ALWAYS required that business keep "proper books and records". The difference now is that they are trying to insist on a very narrow description as to what constitutes "proper".
There is, however, a difference between errors which are careless and those which are intentional. If a taxpayer types in the wrong figure or adds up a column and gets the wrong total then the taxpayer can argue that they are careless and a 30% penalty applies. However, if a taxpayer deliberately decides to not keep a digital link between the tax records and the total then that putting in an erroneous total is intentional with a penalty between 70% and 100%,
Absolutely - but HMRC has more or less given up on tax inspections. They no longer have the number of knowledgeable people in their ranks who knew and understood small businesses and because they more or less wiped out the concept of local tax offices, they know longer know or understand the people they deal with - whether they be taxpayers or their agents and accountants.
They smashed their old system and they are trying to patch it together again. But it won't work.
They smashed their old system and they are trying to patch it together again. But it won't work.
I need some historic data from a dissolved company's accounts.
Accountant had to send request for it by snail mail, and HMRC will only send it out to him by snail mail.
They got the accountant's letter on August 6th. An enquiry last week resulted in being told they've got till October 6th to get the requested data back to us.
Two months??? Doesn't seem very electronic to me. More like slow boat from China than digital.
Accountant had to send request for it by snail mail, and HMRC will only send it out to him by snail mail.
They got the accountant's letter on August 6th. An enquiry last week resulted in being told they've got till October 6th to get the requested data back to us.
Two months??? Doesn't seem very electronic to me. More like slow boat from China than digital.
Edited by Groat on Friday 28th August 16:52
768 said:
I don't think the system I'm using gives me that, or if it does I've never seen it. Never missed it with the old system.
I’d be very surprised if a receipt isn’t generated. Which MTD software are you using?
I get a receipt which can be downloaded, and also an option for an audit trail which gives dates and times of the form submission and acceptance by HMRC.
Edited by Ham_and_Jam on Friday 28th August 14:45
Groat said:
I need some historic data from a dissolved companies accounts. Two months??? Doesn't seem very electronic to me. More like slow boat from China than digital.
What's the rush if it's an old, dissolved company?Why are you asking HMRC for this information? Company accounts are more usually obtained from Companies House.
If it's one of your own companies why do you or your accountant not have this information yourselves?
Covid19 has slowed just about every manual system across the country.
Eric Mc said:
With VAT MTD, HMRC does not issue a receipt or acknowledgement that the return has been submitted.
HMRC's VAT MTD Design Brief:
There must be absolutely no verifiable receipts issued by HMRC. That way we can always blame the submitting party (or their agent) and continue to plague them with threatening letters.
Ham_and_Jam said:
The reason being that any decent MTD software will give a confirmation with the date and time that the submission was accepted by HMRC.
A receipt from a company who hold no liability for the submission ("oh sorry, actually we failed to submit but issued you a receipt anyway, we've only just noticed a bug in our code" - PH answer - "you only paid for the cheap bridging software - what did you expect?!?!/it's your fault that you didn't use a decent one!").As opposed to issuing a cryptographically verifiable receipt from the destination, which would have been simple. Alas, this would provide the sender with proof that HMRC had been inept in losing their submission.
Unfortunately, PH is stuffed full of IT types who think that the answer to everything is more IT, sorry - DIGITAL (or maybe CYBER DIGITAL for the full house). This being further compounded by the "it works for me/my situation, therefore it must work for everyone else. If not, they must be stupid" attitude prevalent on PH.
That's progress for you, let's make this DIGITAL but not bother with the simple matter of issuing receipts of submission.
jw673 said:
A receipt from a company who hold no liability for the submission ("oh sorry, actually we failed to submit but issued you a receipt anyway, we've only just noticed a bug in our code" - PH answer - "you only paid for the cheap bridging software - what did you expect?!?!/it's your fault that you didn't use a decent one!").
As opposed to issuing a cryptographically verifiable receipt from the destination, which would have been simple. Alas, this would provide the sender with proof that HMRC had been inept in losing their submission.
Unfortunately, PH is stuffed full of IT types who think that the answer to everything is more IT, sorry - DIGITAL (or maybe CYBER DIGITAL for the full house). This being further compounded by the "it works for me/my situation, therefore it must work for everyone else. If not, they must be stupid" attitude prevalent on PH.
That's progress for you, let's make this DIGITAL but not bother with the simple matter of issuing receipts of submission.
Harsh mate!As opposed to issuing a cryptographically verifiable receipt from the destination, which would have been simple. Alas, this would provide the sender with proof that HMRC had been inept in losing their submission.
Unfortunately, PH is stuffed full of IT types who think that the answer to everything is more IT, sorry - DIGITAL (or maybe CYBER DIGITAL for the full house). This being further compounded by the "it works for me/my situation, therefore it must work for everyone else. If not, they must be stupid" attitude prevalent on PH.
That's progress for you, let's make this DIGITAL but not bother with the simple matter of issuing receipts of submission.
Believe me, I’m not an ‘IT type’, nor do I wish the world to progress to a digital only age. Far from.
When discussing anything in real life or on a forum, having real life experience of the subject matter helps. So to suggest that you shouldn’t refer to that is a bit strange. My experience of VAT MTD has been fairly straightforward. No issues. If someone wants to ask me a question or want to know the software I use I will tell them. Maybe it’s better than the one they are using. I’m not saying they are stupid or I am better than them. Just I may have made a better purchasing decision than them, either by luck or judgement.
As far as double checking if the VAT return has been received by HMRC, I’m quite confident that the receipt and audit trail given by the software suffices. However I was also surprised HMRC didn’t issue their own receipts. Why? I’m not sure. I’m not here to defend them, I certainly not a HMRC or MTD fanboy, I really don’t care that much.
To be 100% sure the return has been submitted, log on to your HMRC VAT account, the return can be seen there usually within 48 hours. That’s what I did until I had total confidence everything worked.
Anyway that’s all from me, this really isn’t a subject that excites me, or motivates me to get into an argument over it. My motive was only to offer advice.
Edited by Ham_and_Jam on Saturday 29th August 10:28
Before MTD, HMRC would issue a reminder to submit a return and then a receipt that the submission was successful. It was then down to you to pay up.
Now HMRC no longer issuing a reminder to submit and no longer issues a receipt after you have submitted your return.
My bridging software issues me with a receipt which states "HMRC have successfully received your submission for the above client" so I assume it has indeed been received by HMRC.
You can then always log on to your VAT account on the HMRC website to verify that they have received the submission and also that payment has been received.
I hope I'm allowed to state my experience as it may, or may not, help others.
Now HMRC no longer issuing a reminder to submit and no longer issues a receipt after you have submitted your return.
My bridging software issues me with a receipt which states "HMRC have successfully received your submission for the above client" so I assume it has indeed been received by HMRC.
You can then always log on to your VAT account on the HMRC website to verify that they have received the submission and also that payment has been received.
I hope I'm allowed to state my experience as it may, or may not, help others.
Ham_and_Jam said:
The reason being that any decent MTD software will give a confirmation with the date and time that the submission was accepted by HMRC.
Not a sensible answer. The sender confirming something has been sent is no confirmation.Will that stand up in court?
The recipient should be legally obliged to separately acknowledge receipt of any legal document - which is what a VAT return is.
It's disgraceful.
Eric Mc said:
Not a sensible answer. The sender confirming something has been sent is no confirmation.
Will that stand up in court?
The recipient should be legally obliged to separately acknowledge receipt of any legal document - which is what a VAT return is.
It's disgraceful.
This is just getting silly.Will that stand up in court?
The recipient should be legally obliged to separately acknowledge receipt of any legal document - which is what a VAT return is.
It's disgraceful.
Submissions are easily verified on your online VAT account.
HMRC have set up a system where receipts are not sent directlty from them (for VAT submissions), but through a 3rd party, so any defence would be acceptable based on that the you had a receipt using the systems they had put in place.
Moreover, paying your VAT and submitting a VAT return are 2 x different things. I have spoke to HMRC a few times over the years regarding VAT, surprisingly they are very easy going and flexible, providing you pay them. Getting the odd return accidentally wrong or not on time, or even paying late are all fixable without ‘going to court’. This is really reserved for those who have no intention of paying what is due.
Let’s not mix up criminality and admin.
Eric Mc said:
With VAT MTD, HMRC does not issue a receipt or acknowledgement that the return has been submitted.
Hmmm, well someone's giving me an electronic confirmation with a number.And when I go online the bridging software seems able to contact HMRC and access previously submitted returns - so after the event I can see that a return has been successfully submitted.
Or am I imagining it???
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