Does anyone work non-tech in DAB broadcast?

[ReverendCounter]

I've been taking a look at Arquiva and Ofcom's websites to try to get a bit of an understanding about broadcasting DAB content in the UK. The reason for doing so it to try to find out:

1) If broadcast guidelines allow pre-recorded, 24 hour long looped content to be broadcast, with the content being renewed every week

2) If there is enough spare bandwidth in the spectrum

3) If an existing broadcaster will broadcast the content as a new DAB station

4) If an idea from a newcomer to the industry would likely just be copied and adapted, cutting the newcomer out

Before I start bothering Ofcom, has anyone got an inside info on the industry?

[StevieBee]

I used to run a Radio Station and we looked at DAB and had various dealings with OfCom. I wouldn't claim to be fully expert and has been two years since I was at that particular coal face so some of this may be a little dated but the following may help lay the grounding.

ReverendCounter said:

1) If broadcast guidelines allow pre-recorded, 24 hour long looped content to be broadcast, with the content being renewed every week

This very much depends on the type of license you are granted but as a rule of thumb, is not something OfCom like. Our licence carried the obligation of providing 8 hours or live and original content each day and this was one of the more generous arrangements. Output is monitored and transgression can result in fines and withdrawal of licence.

That's not to say that they would say no but you might find a bit of resistance from them to navigate around.

You have to pay for the licence and the cost varies according the size of the footprint you broadcast too, the power of the output (or equivalent metric for DAB) and the type of broadcast. As a guide, our FM licence was for a power setting that gave us a broadcast radius of roughly 2.8 miles (though the reach extended to over 20 depending on weather, plus we cheated and broadcast in mono which doubled the 'official' footprint). That cost us £900 + VAT a year.

ReverendCounter said:

2) If there is enough spare bandwidth in the spectrum

Bandwidth is not the issue. It's about what allocation is available from that allocated in each region. Frequency or bandwidths become available periodically (twice a year I think) and it's a case of bidding for those that you want and if successful, the licence is usually granted on a five-year basis after which, you are then required to bid for renewal (normally granted unless you've transgressed on your licence obligations). OfCom provide a monthly bulletin and in this publish notification of upcoming frequencies and locations.

If you don't want to wait or you want to broadcast in a specific area, you can 'buy' that ability from OfCom subject to their approval, but as you can imagine, this is far from a cheap thing to do.

ReverendCounter said:

3) If an existing broadcaster will broadcast the content as a new DAB station

A lot of the big ones will have DAB stations sitting doing nothing (much to OfCom's displeasure) and may well be inclined to populate those with content if it meets their style and quality. They would most likely pay you a percentage of any ad-revenue they get from the content so don't expect to earn a lot in this way.

ReverendCounter said:

4) If an idea from a newcomer to the industry would likely just be copied and adapted, cutting the newcomer out

Yes. That is very much a possibility like it is in any other context. There are some measures you can take to protect your idea but the risk is always there. But you can't avoid telling anything to anyone, ever.

Couple of other things to consider:

Do you really need DAB? It's possible to run a radio station from a laptop via the internet and doing this does not require any authority or regulatory control from OfCom. It's a lot cheaper too. Obviously this has to be weighed up against the inability to broadcast over the air but the last time I looked at the figures, something like 60% of radio was accessed via an online device.

What about FM? Still a viable platform and cheaper all round.

And lastly, don't be afraid of OfCom. Whilst they are a regulatory body, I always found them very helpful and supportive.

If you want to PM me a little more info, would be happy to expand on the above where I can.

HTH

[TheInternet]

StevieBee said:

something like 60% of radio was accessed via an online device.

Source? I find that very hard to believe, particularly when you consider that around half of all listening remains via analogue platforms.

[ReverendCounter]

SB, very interesting and useful responses, thanks for taking the time to post - really informative!

I think I need to act on your mention of Ofcom being approachable, as a chat there would probably enable me to discuss things in detail without feeling that the content/concept could be basically taken up by a broadcaster without my involvement, if I was to approach them directly.

I've since found the following site which also has some interesting points, one of which is the estimated cost to broadcast nationally per month (£30k!).

http://www.getmeondigitalradio.com/dab-digital-rad...

I'm going to refer back to your response as I give your points some thought (esp. alternatives like FM etc) so again, thanks for the food for thought.

[StevieBee]

ReverendCounter said:

SB, very interesting and useful responses, thanks for taking the time to post - really informative!

I think I need to act on your mention of Ofcom being approachable, as a chat there would probably enable me to discuss things in detail without feeling that the content/concept could be basically taken up by a broadcaster without my involvement, if I was to approach them directly.

I've since found the following site which also has some interesting points, one of which is the estimated cost to broadcast nationally per month (£30k!).

http://www.getmeondigitalradio.com/dab-digital-rad...

I'm going to refer back to your response as I give your points some thought (esp. alternatives like FM etc) so again, thanks for the food for thought.

You're welcome.

Our station was FM only. For reference, we had two studios and one transmitter mast. It was a Community Radio station so everyone was volunteers and the studios were within two schools that we used to work with (Radio Club and stuff) so we didn't pay rent or utilities. I managed to get the annual cost of operation down to £11k. A lot of stations are moving to DAB so there's a glut of FM gear on the market at the moment for reasonable money.

Here's a vid of me in full Alan Partridge mode back 2013 but if you scroll to 2:00 you'll get to see the sort of set up we had and the little cupboard we called a studio:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6xklSJ2ClU

TheInternet said:

StevieBee said:

something like 60% of radio was accessed via an online device.

Source? I find that very hard to believe, particularly when you consider that around half of all listening remains via analogue platforms.

Yeah - you're right. I was getting muddled with DAB which accounts for 57% of radio listening.

Listening via a digital platform accounts for 47%. Still high though and rising:

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/00...

[48k]

ReverendCounter said:

I've been taking a look at Arquiva and Ofcom's websites to try to get a bit of an understanding about broadcasting DAB content in the UK. The reason for doing so it to try to find out:

1) If broadcast guidelines allow pre-recorded, 24 hour long looped content to be broadcast, with the content being renewed every week

2) If there is enough spare bandwidth in the spectrum

3) If an existing broadcaster will broadcast the content as a new DAB station

4) If an idea from a newcomer to the industry would likely just be copied and adapted, cutting the newcomer out

Before I start bothering Ofcom, has anyone got an inside info on the industry?

I worked in commercial and BBC local radio and am currently researching setting up a community station on a DAB multiplex.

You probably know, but Ofcom started a consultation on Small Scale DAB Multiplexes in the summer and have extended the consultation in to next year. Details on the Ofcom website.

Essentially it offers two ways in - either taking an entire multiplex, and operating it yourself as a platform for you and others to run services on, or taking a slot within someone elses' multiplex. Bandwidth isn't the issue, availability of multiplexes and/or licences is.

The nitty gritty of what you can broadcast, what %age of "non live" content is allowed etc. etc. will depend on your specific licence but at a high level based on what you've posted I'd say you'd struggle.

What research has lead you to the conclusion that broadcast DAB is the right solution for your output over, say, internet streaming or a podcast or YouTube channel?

Edited by 48k on Friday 13th December 13:16

[996owner]

ReverendCounter said:

I've been taking a look at Arquiva and Ofcom's websites to try to get a bit of an understanding about broadcasting DAB content in the UK. The reason for doing so it to try to find out:

1) If broadcast guidelines allow pre-recorded, 24 hour long looped content to be broadcast, with the content being renewed every week

2) If there is enough spare bandwidth in the spectrum

3) If an existing broadcaster will broadcast the content as a new DAB station

4) If an idea from a newcomer to the industry would likely just be copied and adapted, cutting the newcomer out

Before I start bothering Ofcom, has anyone got an inside info on the industry?

Broadcast engineer here....
I worked in a large media company when DAB was setup.

SB gave some great points above..

An FM station can rebroadcast its output on DAB without having to do anything different. (this was to try and get people to move to DAB so FM could be switched off, similar happened years ago when there was a push to get AM switched off, we still use AM !)

As for newcommers... I really hope they have VERY VERY deep pockets if they want to be on national/regional DAB. It cost us millions just to re broadcast out fm out on DAB.


For small operators Ofcom are pushing small scale DAB, as it happens i'm working on a project in the northeast. Small scale DAB is pennys compared to the bigger DAB multiplexes.

Feel free to PM me, I still work in the industry but not full time.

Your point no 1: I worked on a project called DNN It was a rolling news service. a bit like sky news but for DAB. It eventually got swithced off after a request to change the "promise of performance"

From what I understand to get onto DAB now you approach the multiplex operator as they are the licence holder and they dictate if they have capacity and if they what you.

I assume you have a idea you'd like to move forward with? again, PM me if you like.


Remeber one thing. IF your on small scale DAB your audience will be small as your limited to 1 area, go online and you have the rest of the UK to broadcast to. cheaper as well

Edited by 996owner on Friday 13th December 10:08

[996owner]

ReverendCounter said:

I've since found the following site which also has some interesting points, one of which is the estimated cost to broadcast nationally per month (£30k!).

http://www.getmeondigitalradio.com/dab-digital-rad...

£30k/month will be the lowest quality no doubt. 48K mono....
Dont forget you'd have other costs, for 1 you'd have to get your output to the multiplex.

[StevieBee]

996owner said:

ReverendCounter said:

I've since found the following site which also has some interesting points, one of which is the estimated cost to broadcast nationally per month (£30k!).

http://www.getmeondigitalradio.com/dab-digital-rad...

£30k/month will be the lowest quality no doubt. 48K mono....
Dont forget you'd have other costs, for 1 you'd have to get your output to the multiplex.

Just to expand a little on this (and should have mentioned it previously), when you bid for a licence, there's two things OfCom need; One is the basic intent of what you are looking to do in terms of output (the fun, sexy stuff) and the other is how your endeavour will be financially sustained and managed (the business plan).

A lot of small start-up stations and community stations foundered on the latter point. No shortage radio enthusiasts and people who believe they know how to put a radio show together or set up a transmitter rig but when it comes to considering where the money is going to come from, a belief that the advertisers will come running with mega-budgets is all too often shown to be somewhat optimistic.

Bauer media (Kiss, Magic, etc) make little or no money from their radio operations, some make a loss. They use their radio stations as a promotional platform for other media interests; music concerts, magazines, festivals and so on. Even Radio Caroline exists today as a hobby for its wealthy owner rather than a viable commercial operation - though its name and reputation does generate a decent-ish revenue.

[996owner]

StevieBee said:

996owner said:

ReverendCounter said:

I've since found the following site which also has some interesting points, one of which is the estimated cost to broadcast nationally per month (£30k!).

http://www.getmeondigitalradio.com/dab-digital-rad...

£30k/month will be the lowest quality no doubt. 48K mono....
Dont forget you'd have other costs, for 1 you'd have to get your output to the multiplex.

A lot of small start-up stations and community stations foundered on the latter point. No shortage radio enthusiasts and people who believe they know how to put a radio show together or set up a transmitter rig but when it comes to considering where the money is going to come from, a belief that the advertisers will come running with mega-budgets is all too often shown to be somewhat optimistic.

this 100%
Just a side note... the likes of Bauer, Global ect ect have pushed the small local advertisers away in favor of the national clients. There is demand for somewhere for the local business to advertise, BUT as I understand it a small/community station can only make 50% of their income from advertising and the other 50% from other sources such as grants ect ect. This is done to protect revenue streams for the big boys who have actively pushed the local advertisers away... Madness.

This is why radio in the UK is so "cloned" across the country.

Some of the community stations need their licences stripping away. We have one up here where the output is so distorted its awful to listen too.

Spoke to one "director" who said "i need to understand the transmitter and associated equipment so I can go and tinker"

Finance and a business plan are key. hence the questions above, do you really need to be on DAB?

[48k]

StevieBee said:

Just to expand a little on this (and should have mentioned it previously), when you bid for a licence, there's two things OfCom need; One is the basic intent of what you are looking to do in terms of output (the fun, sexy stuff) and the other is how your endeavour will be financially sustained and managed (the business plan).

A lot of small start-up stations and community stations foundered on the latter point. No shortage radio enthusiasts and people who believe they know how to put a radio show together or set up a transmitter rig but when it comes to considering where the money is going to come from, a belief that the advertisers will come running with mega-budgets is all too often shown to be somewhat optimistic.

Bauer media (Kiss, Magic, etc) make little or no money from their radio operations, some make a loss. They use their radio stations as a promotional platform for other media interests; music concerts, magazines, festivals and so on. Even Radio Caroline exists today as a hobby for its wealthy owner rather than a viable commercial operation - though its name and reputation does generate a decent-ish revenue.

I've just shown this to someone who works in the management team at Bauer and when they stopped laughing their response was "that's utter bks".

[StevieBee]

996owner said:

his 100%
Some of the community stations need their licences stripping away. We have one up here where the output is so distorted its awful to listen too.

Spoke to one "director" who said "i need to understand the transmitter and associated equipment so I can go and tinker"

I'd love to have a pint and share some stories! I've long said there's a sitcom to be written around Community Radio.

We had one chap fall asleep doing his show - his snoring preventing the dead-air MP3 player kicking in. Another who decided to make a jingle that went along the lines of "we check because we're safe...we're the station that doesn't interfere with little kiddies" (I kid you not!!). Presenters who used gain as volume....the list goes on.

I managed to change and turn things around but was akin to herding cats. When you have presenters that see nothing wrong with playing Seasick Steve just before a 15 min' classical piece duding a lunchtime show on the belief that 'people like variety', the challenge is somewhat steep

[Taita]

StevieBee said:

ReverendCounter said:

SB, very interesting and useful responses, thanks for taking the time to post - really informative!

I think I need to act on your mention of Ofcom being approachable, as a chat there would probably enable me to discuss things in detail without feeling that the content/concept could be basically taken up by a broadcaster without my involvement, if I was to approach them directly.

I've since found the following site which also has some interesting points, one of which is the estimated cost to broadcast nationally per month (£30k!).

http://www.getmeondigitalradio.com/dab-digital-rad...

I'm going to refer back to your response as I give your points some thought (esp. alternatives like FM etc) so again, thanks for the food for thought.

You're welcome.

Our station was FM only. For reference, we had two studios and one transmitter mast. It was a Community Radio station so everyone was volunteers and the studios were within two schools that we used to work with (Radio Club and stuff) so we didn't pay rent or utilities. I managed to get the annual cost of operation down to £11k. A lot of stations are moving to DAB so there's a glut of FM gear on the market at the moment for reasonable money.

Here's a vid of me in full Alan Partridge mode back 2013 but if you scroll to 2:00 you'll get to see the sort of set up we had and the little cupboard we called a studio:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6xklSJ2ClU

TheInternet said:

StevieBee said:

something like 60% of radio was accessed via an online device.

Source? I find that very hard to believe, particularly when you consider that around half of all listening remains via analogue platforms.

Yeah - you're right. I was getting muddled with DAB which accounts for 57% of radio listening.

Listening via a digital platform accounts for 47%. Still high though and rising:

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/00...

Your video is quite fun

[996owner]

StevieBee said:

996owner said:

his 100%
Some of the community stations need their licences stripping away. We have one up here where the output is so distorted its awful to listen too.

Spoke to one "director" who said "i need to understand the transmitter and associated equipment so I can go and tinker"

I'd love to have a pint and share some stories! I've long said there's a sitcom to be written around Community Radio.

We had one chap fall asleep doing his show - his snoring preventing the dead-air MP3 player kicking in. Another who decided to make a jingle that went along the lines of "we check because we're safe...we're the station that doesn't interfere with little kiddies" (I kid you not!!). Presenters who used gain as volume....the list goes on.

I managed to change and turn things around but was akin to herding cats. When you have presenters that see nothing wrong with playing Seasick Steve just before a 15 min' classical piece duding a lunchtime show on the belief that 'people like variety', the challenge is somewhat steep

I've worked with some crackers during my time !
I always fine that most programmers are too close to their product and think everything is great until the audience research comes in...
One of our DJs read out a letter about Drew Peacock... everyone was in fits of laughter in the office. fortunately no Ofcom complaints about Mr Droopy cock!.

very early on in my career I was suppried at how often the police turned up to review output from the loggers. Turns out that prisoners use to write in to request shows with coded messages. Such as "Please play a song for my girlfriend who I cant wait to see on Saturday" (or something like that... ) This would be a message to fellow cons to carry out a plan.

Best years of my life, some very challenging times but mostly good.

Build many a radio studio and had the pleasure of working on some very expensive kit.. Spent loads of other peoples dosh too.

Edited by 996owner on Friday 13th December 14:09

[StevieBee]

48k said:

StevieBee said:

Bauer media (Kiss, Magic, etc) make little or no money from their radio operations, some make a loss. They use their radio stations as a promotional platform for other media interests; music concerts, magazines, festivals and so on. Even Radio Caroline exists today as a hobby for its wealthy owner rather than a viable commercial operation - though its name and reputation does generate a decent-ish revenue.

I've just shown this to someone who works in the management team at Bauer and when they stopped laughing their response was "that's utter bks".

Would suggest said manager better informs their presenters as it was one of them that explained the financials to me... admittedly back in 2014 and I'm not certain he was a real Dr.

Edited by StevieBee on Friday 13th December 16:50

[48k]

StevieBee said:

I'm not certain he was a real Dr.

Explains everything. No further questions your honour.

[996owner]

StevieBee said:

48k said:

StevieBee said:

Bauer media (Kiss, Magic, etc) make little or no money from their radio operations, some make a loss. They use their radio stations as a promotional platform for other media interests; music concerts, magazines, festivals and so on. Even Radio Caroline exists today as a hobby for its wealthy owner rather than a viable commercial operation - though its name and reputation does generate a decent-ish revenue.

I've just shown this to someone who works in the management team at Bauer and when they stopped laughing their response was "that's utter bks".

Would suggest said manager better informs their presenters as it was one of them that explained the financials to me... admittedly back in 2014.

The big players make £££ Not as much as they use to. DAB partly caused this, if you give joe public more choice they take it and the more choice the advertisers have to spend their budget on thus your share of listeners and revenue drops. Some big groups seem to combat this by opening more stations on said platforms.

costs are a massive factor.
Buildings
Technology (not just physical kit, inter site links (WAN) transmission costs)
Staff
Presenters
PRS/PPL
FM/DAB costs (after all that's what started this topic)

Bear in mind the amount of networking that's taking place (lots of staff redundant, less buildings ect ect) they will be making a few £££ more

One station I worked at didn't make a profit. I sat on the management team and attended heads of department meetings and yes cashflow was discussed.