WFH - a new model
Discussion
paddy1970 said:
I think it won't be long before organisations realise that WFH could be capitalised beyond the reduction of office costs.
Why will you pay someone in the UK working from home when you can pay someone far cheaper from another country?
I think WFH will open the employment market beyond borders like we have never seen before.
Thats been happening for quite a long time. Many companies i have worked for over the last few years have been using teams in Poland, etc where the work can be done much cheaper. Why will you pay someone in the UK working from home when you can pay someone far cheaper from another country?
I think WFH will open the employment market beyond borders like we have never seen before.
There are still downsides to this - language and articulation of issues and also timezone (but to a smaller extent that if using India etc).
What it does open up is not having the requirement to have staff within commuting distance of your office but still in the UK.
Deep Thought said:
Thats been happening for quite a long time. Many companies i have worked for over the last few years have been using teams in Poland, etc where the work can be done much cheaper.
There are still downsides to this - language and articulation of issues and also timezone (but to a smaller extent that if using India etc).
What it does open up is not having the requirement to have staff within commuting distance of your office but still in the UK.
Of course this has been going on for years but the scale of it is going to increase significantly. There are still downsides to this - language and articulation of issues and also timezone (but to a smaller extent that if using India etc).
What it does open up is not having the requirement to have staff within commuting distance of your office but still in the UK.
Why will you employ a British worker WFH when you can have a South African (fluent in English and on the same time zone) for half (or a third) of the price.
paddy1970 said:
Of course this has been going on for years but the scale of it is going to increase significantly.
Why will you employ a British worker WFH when you can have a South African (fluent in English and on the same time zone) for half (or a third) of the price.
Because you've then got to contend with different legal and taxation systems, and so forth?Why will you employ a British worker WFH when you can have a South African (fluent in English and on the same time zone) for half (or a third) of the price.
You'll also have different public holidays and, if the other hemisphere, opposing summer holiday periods.
You'll also lose out of shared culture, which can be really significant in terms of building working relationships.
Kermit power said:
Because you've then got to contend with different legal and taxation systems, and so forth?
You'll also have different public holidays and, if the other hemisphere, opposing summer holiday periods.
You'll also lose out of shared culture, which can be really significant in terms of building working relationships.
Wait a second, are you saying there are also some tax, resource management and diversity advantages...You'll also have different public holidays and, if the other hemisphere, opposing summer holiday periods.
You'll also lose out of shared culture, which can be really significant in terms of building working relationships.
paddy1970 said:
Kermit power said:
Because you've then got to contend with different legal and taxation systems, and so forth?
You'll also have different public holidays and, if the other hemisphere, opposing summer holiday periods.
You'll also lose out of shared culture, which can be really significant in terms of building working relationships.
Wait a second, are you saying there are also some tax, resource management and diversity advantages...You'll also have different public holidays and, if the other hemisphere, opposing summer holiday periods.
You'll also lose out of shared culture, which can be really significant in terms of building working relationships.
Then as i've said, theres cultural differences, difference in work ethic / approach, articulation and management of issues and problems, separate teams.
My wifes company have several offices out there and they havent really been a success. They've pushed various work out there call centre agent work, BPO work, support functions for their own company (HR, finance, etc) and it certainly hasnt been a breeze. A lot of the work ends up coming back to the UK or worse still, they've on occasions lost the contract and the client has pulled the business that they've put out there.
It can work, but its definitely not easy, and there are downsides for near shoring and off shoring. The headline savings can look tempting but theres much more to consider.
Deep Thought said:
paddy1970 said:
I think it won't be long before organisations realise that WFH could be capitalised beyond the reduction of office costs.
Why will you pay someone in the UK working from home when you can pay someone far cheaper from another country?
I think WFH will open the employment market beyond borders like we have never seen before.
Thats been happening for quite a long time. Many companies i have worked for over the last few years have been using teams in Poland, etc where the work can be done much cheaper. Why will you pay someone in the UK working from home when you can pay someone far cheaper from another country?
I think WFH will open the employment market beyond borders like we have never seen before.
There are still downsides to this - language and articulation of issues and also timezone (but to a smaller extent that if using India etc).
What it does open up is not having the requirement to have staff within commuting distance of your office but still in the UK.
Deep Thought said:
Its all very easy said but its not just a matter of having someone working from home somewhere in SA. Its a big commitment for a company to build a presence out there - office, support staff - and big enough to make it viable to do so. Also, if you want the offshore operation to work to UK processes and standards then you've to put a significant amount of UK people there for a significantly long time to try to instill those processes.
Then as i've said, theres cultural differences, difference in work ethic / approach, articulation and management of issues and problems, separate teams.
My wifes company have several offices out there and they havent really been a success. They've pushed various work out there call centre agent work, BPO work, support functions for their own company (HR, finance, etc) and it certainly hasnt been a breeze. A lot of the work ends up coming back to the UK or worse still, they've on occasions lost the contract and the client has pulled the business that they've put out there.
It can work, but its definitely not easy, and there are downsides for near shoring and off shoring. The headline savings can look tempting but theres much more to consider.
You totally miss the point. You do not need an office anymore. The WFH model is working with British staff. Why would not use SA staff? The model has moved on. This is individual shoring anywhere in the world.Then as i've said, theres cultural differences, difference in work ethic / approach, articulation and management of issues and problems, separate teams.
My wifes company have several offices out there and they havent really been a success. They've pushed various work out there call centre agent work, BPO work, support functions for their own company (HR, finance, etc) and it certainly hasnt been a breeze. A lot of the work ends up coming back to the UK or worse still, they've on occasions lost the contract and the client has pulled the business that they've put out there.
It can work, but its definitely not easy, and there are downsides for near shoring and off shoring. The headline savings can look tempting but theres much more to consider.
One thing I didn't anticipate when we shifted to WFH, is the large number of 'expat' UK citizens living overseas who work for UK companies. They have even lower living costs and wage requirements.
Mother tongue UK english is still a differentiator in many sectors. Some of our competitors have operations in low cost areas of USA and South Africa, but UK is still a plus.
paddy1970 said:
Deep Thought said:
Its all very easy said but its not just a matter of having someone working from home somewhere in SA. Its a big commitment for a company to build a presence out there - office, support staff - and big enough to make it viable to do so. Also, if you want the offshore operation to work to UK processes and standards then you've to put a significant amount of UK people there for a significantly long time to try to instill those processes.
Then as i've said, theres cultural differences, difference in work ethic / approach, articulation and management of issues and problems, separate teams.
My wifes company have several offices out there and they havent really been a success. They've pushed various work out there call centre agent work, BPO work, support functions for their own company (HR, finance, etc) and it certainly hasnt been a breeze. A lot of the work ends up coming back to the UK or worse still, they've on occasions lost the contract and the client has pulled the business that they've put out there.
It can work, but its definitely not easy, and there are downsides for near shoring and off shoring. The headline savings can look tempting but theres much more to consider.
You totally miss the point. You do not need an office anymore. The WFH model is working with British staff. Why would not use SA staff? The model has moved on. This is individual shoring anywhere in the world.Then as i've said, theres cultural differences, difference in work ethic / approach, articulation and management of issues and problems, separate teams.
My wifes company have several offices out there and they havent really been a success. They've pushed various work out there call centre agent work, BPO work, support functions for their own company (HR, finance, etc) and it certainly hasnt been a breeze. A lot of the work ends up coming back to the UK or worse still, they've on occasions lost the contract and the client has pulled the business that they've put out there.
It can work, but its definitely not easy, and there are downsides for near shoring and off shoring. The headline savings can look tempting but theres much more to consider.
Yes, you can employ people without bringing them into an office and save money, but you can do that in the UK to a large extent.
Once you start working with employees in different countries, you end up with a whole host of different issues...
1. Even if you only employ people in one other country, you've just doubled the number of legal and taxation systems you need to be able to work with.
2. It's much harder to manage people remotely.
3. It's much harder to build relationships remotely, whether that be with customers or with colleagues.
4. Why do you suppose people like BT went to all the effort of moving their call centres to India, only to move them back again a couple of years later?
You can get all the cost benefits of not having a physical office in the UK whilst employing people in the UK. The returns thereafter aren't as clear cut.
paddy1970 said:
You totally miss the point. You do not need an office anymore. The WFH model is working with British staff. Why would not use SA staff? The model has moved on. This is individual shoring anywhere in the world.
Hmmm. Maybe. It might work. I guess in certain sectors it doesnt really matter as you say if one individual is sitting at home does it matter where they are sitting at home. A huge step for many companies though. But maybe we will see more of it.
Kermit power said:
I think you're the one missing the point.
Yes, you can employ people without bringing them into an office and save money, but you can do that in the UK to a large extent.
Once you start working with employees in different countries, you end up with a whole host of different issues...
1. Even if you only employ people in one other country, you've just doubled the number of legal and taxation systems you need to be able to work with.
2. It's much harder to manage people remotely.
3. It's much harder to build relationships remotely, whether that be with customers or with colleagues.
4. Why do you suppose people like BT went to all the effort of moving their call centres to India, only to move them back again a couple of years later?
You can get all the cost benefits of not having a physical office in the UK whilst employing people in the UK. The returns thereafter aren't as clear cut.
What would be a good idea would be to create a group of nearby countries, broadly operating within an hour or two of time zones, allowing freedom of passage between them without limit and the right to work within those countries should you desire to do so. Some sort of "union".Yes, you can employ people without bringing them into an office and save money, but you can do that in the UK to a large extent.
Once you start working with employees in different countries, you end up with a whole host of different issues...
1. Even if you only employ people in one other country, you've just doubled the number of legal and taxation systems you need to be able to work with.
2. It's much harder to manage people remotely.
3. It's much harder to build relationships remotely, whether that be with customers or with colleagues.
4. Why do you suppose people like BT went to all the effort of moving their call centres to India, only to move them back again a couple of years later?
You can get all the cost benefits of not having a physical office in the UK whilst employing people in the UK. The returns thereafter aren't as clear cut.
Shnozz said:
What would be a good idea would be to create a group of nearby countries, broadly operating within an hour or two of time zones, allowing freedom of passage between them without limit and the right to work within those countries should you desire to do so. Some sort of "union".
Communism is a good idea too. It's when you try to put the idea into practice that it all goes to s
t.Shnozz said:
What would be a good idea would be to create a group of nearby countries, broadly operating within an hour or two of time zones, allowing freedom of passage between them without limit and the right to work within those countries should you desire to do so. Some sort of "union".
Shnozz said:
Kermit power said:
I think you're the one missing the point.
Yes, you can employ people without bringing them into an office and save money, but you can do that in the UK to a large extent.
Once you start working with employees in different countries, you end up with a whole host of different issues...
1. Even if you only employ people in one other country, you've just doubled the number of legal and taxation systems you need to be able to work with.
2. It's much harder to manage people remotely.
3. It's much harder to build relationships remotely, whether that be with customers or with colleagues.
4. Why do you suppose people like BT went to all the effort of moving their call centres to India, only to move them back again a couple of years later?
You can get all the cost benefits of not having a physical office in the UK whilst employing people in the UK. The returns thereafter aren't as clear cut.
What would be a good idea would be to create a group of nearby countries, broadly operating within an hour or two of time zones, allowing freedom of passage between them without limit and the right to work within those countries should you desire to do so. Some sort of "union".Yes, you can employ people without bringing them into an office and save money, but you can do that in the UK to a large extent.
Once you start working with employees in different countries, you end up with a whole host of different issues...
1. Even if you only employ people in one other country, you've just doubled the number of legal and taxation systems you need to be able to work with.
2. It's much harder to manage people remotely.
3. It's much harder to build relationships remotely, whether that be with customers or with colleagues.
4. Why do you suppose people like BT went to all the effort of moving their call centres to India, only to move them back again a couple of years later?
You can get all the cost benefits of not having a physical office in the UK whilst employing people in the UK. The returns thereafter aren't as clear cut.
Kermit power said:
Shnozz said:
Kermit power said:
I think you're the one missing the point.
Yes, you can employ people without bringing them into an office and save money, but you can do that in the UK to a large extent.
Once you start working with employees in different countries, you end up with a whole host of different issues...
1. Even if you only employ people in one other country, you've just doubled the number of legal and taxation systems you need to be able to work with.
2. It's much harder to manage people remotely.
3. It's much harder to build relationships remotely, whether that be with customers or with colleagues.
4. Why do you suppose people like BT went to all the effort of moving their call centres to India, only to move them back again a couple of years later?
You can get all the cost benefits of not having a physical office in the UK whilst employing people in the UK. The returns thereafter aren't as clear cut.
What would be a good idea would be to create a group of nearby countries, broadly operating within an hour or two of time zones, allowing freedom of passage between them without limit and the right to work within those countries should you desire to do so. Some sort of "union".Yes, you can employ people without bringing them into an office and save money, but you can do that in the UK to a large extent.
Once you start working with employees in different countries, you end up with a whole host of different issues...
1. Even if you only employ people in one other country, you've just doubled the number of legal and taxation systems you need to be able to work with.
2. It's much harder to manage people remotely.
3. It's much harder to build relationships remotely, whether that be with customers or with colleagues.
4. Why do you suppose people like BT went to all the effort of moving their call centres to India, only to move them back again a couple of years later?
You can get all the cost benefits of not having a physical office in the UK whilst employing people in the UK. The returns thereafter aren't as clear cut.
Hence why i dont think its as easy to just have someone working remotely and alone from another continent entirely. It can work yes no doubt for some small areas, but i dont forsee a mass jobs exodus to people WFH in Capetown or similar.
BUT - it opens up another opportunity. Nothing to stop UK ex pats or people with second homes in other countries now working more easily from there.
Deep Thought said:
BUT - it opens up another opportunity. Nothing to stop UK ex pats or people with second homes in other countries now working more easily from there.
Quite 
Currently sat in sunny Spain and with the Mrs "locked out" of her university for the time being and forced to deliver lectures online, no idea of when we might head back to the UK at present.
Edited by Shnozz on Monday 13th July 11:47
Shnozz said:
That looks a great high tech office!
Thanks! Took me 7 years of installing bathrooms, kitchens, painting and refurbing the rest of the house before I was able to get to my office but was worth the wait - garage is next on the list .... the screen on the left is a Dakboard using a Raspberry Pii and an old monitorOn the WFH model I have to say I'm also lucky that my employer is also quite advanced on technology, everything is office365 based so I can use my home Mac for work and leave the crappy issued laptop in the bag - find it really helpful to have work/home environment combined
Quite a lot of places usually make WFH a lot more complicated normally (home insurance, a 'dedicated work station' which they have to come out and inspect, etc. ), but all that went out of the window due to Covid.... temporarily.
Quite a few FMs I've spoken to have suggested they have started to experience gentle pressure from H&S bods to start following 'the rules' re: WFH.
I wonder if the ability to WFH will start quietly start being taken away by a few more H&S-obsessed employers?
Quite a few FMs I've spoken to have suggested they have started to experience gentle pressure from H&S bods to start following 'the rules' re: WFH.
I wonder if the ability to WFH will start quietly start being taken away by a few more H&S-obsessed employers?
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