Gone very quiet

[singlecoil]

Business rates are just a tax. It works well from the government's pov because it's difficult to hide a building or to move it abroad.

[Digga]

singlecoil said:

Business rates are just a tax. It works well from the government's pov because it's difficult to hide a building or to move it abroad.

Like all other taxes though, the system is skewed, because I know for a fact the very big payers get deals.

It's also a bureacratic nonsense.

[classicaholic]

Digga said:

singlecoil said:

Business rates are just a tax. It works well from the government's pov because it's difficult to hide a building or to move it abroad.

Like all other taxes though, the system is skewed, because I know for a fact the very big payers get deals.

It's also a bureacratic nonsense.

Is it still the case where the government get all the money from business rates, that would explain why the access roads are bad and that you don't get your bins emptied.

[borcy]

classicaholic said:

Digga said:

singlecoil said:

Business rates are just a tax. It works well from the government's pov because it's difficult to hide a building or to move it abroad.

Like all other taxes though, the system is skewed, because I know for a fact the very big payers get deals.

It's also a bureacratic nonsense.

Is it still the case where the government get all the money from business rates, that would explain why the access roads are bad and that you don't get your bins emptied.

I think the local authorities get the money now, but the bands/rates are still set by central government. Someone on here will probably know for sure

[RicksAlfas]

You certainly pay your business rates to the local council.

[borcy]

RicksAlfas said:

You certainly pay your business rates to the local council.

I think you always did, but the local authorities collected the money on behalf of the treasury. I can't remember when it all changed.

[M1AGM]

According to here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/national-...

Councils keep at least 50% of what they collect, probably mostly going towards adult social care costs, certainly not towards businesses unless they are care home providers.

[Rebew]

Jordie Barretts sock said:

I'm away for a week on a campsite in West Cornwall. The place is empty considering it is the Easter holiday. We were the only check in today. It's like mid October, not the beginning of the season. Obviously the weather isn't helping.

Cornwall services at Victoria was busy enough around lunchtime when we were passing through.

We are in Devon and popped to Padstow for the day on Saturday. Got there at about half 10 expecting to have to use the park and ride but the main carpark by the harbour was almost deserted and stayed that way all day. Not what I was expecting on a Saturday in the middle of the Easter holidays.

Stopped in Tintagel and Bude on the way home and the story was the same.

After a few years of boom for the South West tourist destinations this year does not appear to have got off to a good start!

[Frimley111R]

Rebew said:

Jordie Barretts sock said:

I'm away for a week on a campsite in West Cornwall. The place is empty considering it is the Easter holiday. We were the only check in today. It's like mid October, not the beginning of the season. Obviously the weather isn't helping.

Cornwall services at Victoria was busy enough around lunchtime when we were passing through.

We are in Devon and popped to Padstow for the day on Saturday. Got there at about half 10 expecting to have to use the park and ride but the main carpark by the harbour was almost deserted and stayed that way all day. Not what I was expecting on a Saturday in the middle of the Easter holidays.

Stopped in Tintagel and Bude on the way home and the story was the same.

After a few years of boom for the South West tourist destinations, this year does not appear to have got off to a good start!

As said above though, the weather is utterly shocking and I can see a lot of people getting away from the UK for a break rather than travelling miles to watch the rain and wind. It's also a very early Easter, right at the end of winter too.

A decent amount of sunshine and it would have been a different story but that's always been the case.

[Dr Interceptor]

Took mother across to the local big chain garden centre this morning, the car park over there was rammed. When we got into the centre, there were hardly any people in there anywhere, the aisles were deserted.... they were all in the cafe!

I can well believe that the cafe there earns them just as much as the rest of the site.

[skwdenyer]

EddieSteadyGo said:

monkfish1 said:

You do know there is no gurantee of success? Thats the risk. Could put in 10 years of effort and get nothing, (indeed i did for one buisness) If selling for a profit was guranteed, sure, id agree with you.

The risk / reward ratio is now skewed to far, in my opinion. And so i will no longer take that risk. That is to the detriment of the government tax take. They were not minimum wage jobs subsidised by government benefits either.

If you believe that me doing a PAYE job is better for the country than a succesful, thriving business, employing people and paying tax etc is better then of course you are entitled to that opinion.

You're right. Too few people understand, as they don't bear the scars of running their own business.

I do bear those scars. I know it was "better" in the past. I also know that far too many make full use of all of the loopholes to extract huge amounts of businesses along the way, meaning the overall tax take is way lower than it needs to be. I'd prefer it if businesses were disincentivised from (from instance) moving property into Directors' names, or borrowing to pay dividends, and all manner of other management charges and so on, in favour of building up asset wealth in the business and then reducing the tax burden on an eventual sale. But that's not what the PE boys want, so instead we've got what we've got. But if you copy the PE playbook and aggressively suck cash out along the way, your lifetime tax rate will still be really very low.

[skwdenyer]

Frimley111R said:

Puzzles said:

Oh and let’s not forget the 13.8% employers NI punishment for employing someone..

That one always blows my mind. As an employer, you are taxed for employing someone who will pay income tax and their own NI and then spend that money on taxable products and services. Insane.

Why do the Germans and French do so well, when they pay so much more than that?

Where do you think it better? The USA, land of the free? Federal payroll tax: 7.65%. Federal FUTA tax: 6% on the first $7k. State payroll tax: varies. Loads of other employment taxes. Oh and, yes, you most likely have to fund your employees' healthcare costs, too.

Our rate is pretty low on a global scale amongst developed nations.

[skwdenyer]

Digga said:

Ean218 said:

Frimley111R said:

That one always blows my mind. As an employer, you are taxed for employing someone who will pay income tax and their own NI and then spend that money on taxable products and services. Insane.

Just the same as business rates, spend money to improve your property to increase productivity and sales therefore increase general tax take, then pay even more in rates.

Looked at a place for sale or rent near me. It's a 161,000sq. ft. factory. The GovernmentLA want to take £245k p.a. off you for the pleasure of trying to do business there. fking roads to/from it are potholed and flooded.

FTFY. Business rates are nothing to do with the LA, except that they're expected to collect them. The LA don't set them. And every £1 received by the LA is just knocked off the Govt's grant to the LA. The amount of money LAs have to spend, and what they're required to spend it on, is almost entirely set by Govt.

£245k implies a rateable value of about £2.81 psf. Either that's a really great RV, or the site is in the dingiest place in the world

Assuming such a site is worth, let's say (on 5% yield, and with an assumed rent of only the RV of £2.81 psf), £9m, the business rates payable are 2.7% pa.

Taking the US, say, as a comparator (as many seem to think it cheap to operate a business there), about 40% of the states in the US charge a property tax of over 2% of annually-assessed market value per year.

France is 3%. Germany is far lower, however.

I don't disagree that business rates are a really poor tax - they're a drag on business, and a poor proxy for anything of value. I'd scrap them in a heartbeat. But, as with other taxes, it is important to understand how they stack up on a global level.

[Digga]

skwdenyer said:

FTFY. Business rates are nothing to do with the LA, except that they're expected to collect them. The LA don't set them. And every £1 received by the LA is just knocked off the Govt's grant to the LA. The amount of money LAs have to spend, and what they're required to spend it on, is almost entirely set by Govt.

£245k implies a rateable value of about £2.81 psf. Either that's a really great RV, or the site is in the dingiest place in the world

Assuming such a site is worth, let's say (on 5% yield, and with an assumed rent of only the RV of £2.81 psf), £9m, the business rates payable are 2.7% pa.

Taking the US, say, as a comparator (as many seem to think it cheap to operate a business there), about 40% of the states in the US charge a property tax of over 2% of annually-assessed market value per year.

France is 3%. Germany is far lower, however.

I don't disagree that business rates are a really poor tax - they're a drag on business, and a poor proxy for anything of value. I'd scrap them in a heartbeat. But, as with other taxes, it is important to understand how they stack up on a global level.

Not the worst premises but by no means new. I reckon site's worth only about £8m, as is. It is old, first owner was JCB (was the original mini digger factory) and it's had about two since.

IMHO it will either:

• bumble along as a rental with numerous short term style projects/ventures
• stay empty
• get knocked down for retail as adjoioning sites are now Tesco and a new Aldi in the making

The business rates are, as you say (like stamp duty) a very blunt tax.

[macron]

okgo said:

Is cost of living crisis still a thing?

I genuinely thought all that was behind us now.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68765769

"Some 7.4 million UK adults are still struggling to pay bills due to the high cost of living, a survey suggests."

If anyone wondered why the plebs aren't larging it in rainy Cornwall this week.

[Jordie Barretts sock]

Oi! I'm one of those plebs in rainy Cornwall.

[Tim Cognito]

Will be interesting to see how retail goes once April's pay packet lands ref the minimum wage increase and reduced NICs. I shalt keep you posted...

[Digga]

US inflation data out today which means Fed very unlikely to cut rates and, therefore, by extension, the spineless, ball-less BoE will almost certainly not cut.

Ergo, I definitely see the UK tipping back to 50 and below PMI readings and consurmer and business lack of confidence and (mild) recesssion.

[monkfish1]

Digga said:

US inflation data out today which means Fed very unlikely to cut rates and, therefore, by extension, the spineless, ball-less BoE will almost certainly not cut.

Ergo, I definitely see the UK tipping back to 50 and below PMI readings and consurmer and business lack of confidence and (mild) recesssion.

Probably the most likely scenario.

[macron]

Tim Cognito said:

Will be interesting to see how retail goes once April's pay packet lands ref the minimum wage increase and reduced NICs. I shalt keep you posted...

Min wage is quite a % boost for a lot of folk, but on such a low starting point do you really think it will have an impact?

NIC is more interesting, assuming 35k salary as rough average apparently, and that the Which? Calc is right, that's down to 1794 pa from 2579, of course over a year it's £65pcm, so still probably not enough to keep Rishi in office, or for people to be out partying hard because of it.