Return to office - your situation

[strain]

When I was in the UK we trialed going back last july, 25 out of 268 staff got to go in, I done it for my department, they looked to extend it before the whole thing was called off.

Speaking to the facilities guy he said most likely be 2 days one week 3 days the next week, which allows the business to keep extra space in the offices.

WFH was a pain, not much collaboration, new manager didnt / doesn't know what hes doing.

I left and relocated to the UAE, office open 24/7 since I joined in Jan, feels normal although I do miss WFH (in the right circumstances)

Stupid thing is my new business has went through 'changes' Our UAE office has gone from 6 full time employees to now me + any visitors, so I could easily do it all from home and save myself £10 a day + 1 hour travel time. I might raise it with the boss but I know the answer, we get 30ish days per year WFH, I can use them whenever I want


Back to the UK - my brother is looking for a new office, current office has been sold and lost all his outside space, seems to be anything decent gets snapped up quickly

[nunpuncher]

austina35 said:

Having worked every day since last march, I'm hoping the company directors get all the office staff back this week. I mean, come on, it's a joke. When you call anyone, they never answer the phone. They are either at Tesco or out in the garden.

Having worked from home in previous jobs, I know how it works so they all think we fell off the moon last week.

Its about time companies put their foot down and got these lazy people back in the office where they can be monitored properly and productivity can get back to where it was before all this nonsense started.

I want my shares back where they were at the start of 2020.

One of the most cleverly constructed pieces of humour I've read in years.

The bitterness at having to be in work as by your own admission you do SFA when at home and therefore assume everyone is as lazy as you if given the opportunity.

Superb work.

[Sporky]

Our MD has provisionally (but firmly) indicated that our office-based staff will be back in the office from the 21st of June; anyone who wasn't office-based will carry on working from home.

In practice that means that accounts, purchasing, sales support, and service will be in, while project managers, sales, design, and the installers will be out (though the installers will be collecting kit and stuff for installations from the warehouse). Pre-covid most of the "out" group would be in the office 1-4 times a month on average; that's going to be 0 for the foreseeable.

We've got a ridiculously/brilliantly full order book for summer jobs now, so the basis is that the office people will need to, and be able to, co-ordinate better this way. He's said he's open to increasing flexibility in the future once we've seen how well a full-on summer goes, but the divide above also aligns quite well with where people actually want to be, and who needs the most supervision/assistance to get their work done.

[Captain Raymond Holt]

We’re told we can do what we want, I’m thinking I’ll probably aim to be in 2 days a week, maybe 1 depending on what I’ve got on.

Quite like the lunch and coffee breaks with the sprogs and wife when they’re around.

[RC1807]

I didn't WFH until this year as I was effectively on gardening leave in 2020.
I now work in SaaS sales. My CEO is in NY, the rest are in Silicon Valley.
I've not been in the role long at all, but I'm finding WFH, alone, quite difficult. I'm used to having people around, and enjoyed that.

That said, I spoke to some people at a global financial company last week. They're looking at returning to their offices only in October 2021. Globally, only ~300 people are working in offices now.

My former employer is halving their real estate by maintaining a significant number of people WFH, and installing flexible working spaces whilst so many have been out of the office. I think those WFH during the renovations only went in to take their st home, or lose it.

Edited by RC1807 on Tuesday 1st June 10:57

[HappySilver]

Doofus said:

I employed two new people at the end of last year, one of whom lives abroad. WFH gives us so much more flexibility to find the right person for the role, not just the closest person for the role.

Video conf and things like Slack mean WFH is a genuine long-term option. We're considering a small hot-desk facility for those who need to be around other people (and face to face meetings will be useful on occasion), but in general, this is the new paradigm.

Doofus - how are you paying your overseas employee, they will need to pay tax in the country of residence and where they are working from so surely you will need to pay them there meaning you will need a local employing entity and will have to pay corporation tax etc.? Sounds a whole heap of extra pain? If you read the small print of the companies saying ‘work from anywhere’ it normally says ‘anywhere under the jurisdiction of HMRC’ to avoid exactly those issues.

[Doofus]

HappySilver said:

Doofus said:

I employed two new people at the end of last year, one of whom lives abroad. WFH gives us so much more flexibility to find the right person for the role, not just the closest person for the role.

Video conf and things like Slack mean WFH is a genuine long-term option. We're considering a small hot-desk facility for those who need to be around other people (and face to face meetings will be useful on occasion), but in general, this is the new paradigm.

Doofus - how are you paying your overseas employee, they will need to pay tax in the country of residence and where they are working from so surely you will need to pay them there meaning you will need a local employing entity and will have to pay corporation tax etc.? Sounds a whole heap of extra pain? If you read the small print of the companies saying ‘work from anywhere’ it normally says ‘anywhere under the jurisdiction of HMRC’ to avoid exactly those issues.

They are UK resident for tax purposes, but I already have an HR consultant, thank you.

ETA: They don't live abroad full-time, but that wasn't relevant to the point of my original post.

[HappySilver]

Doofus said:

HappySilver said:

Doofus said:

I employed two new people at the end of last year, one of whom lives abroad. WFH gives us so much more flexibility to find the right person for the role, not just the closest person for the role.

Video conf and things like Slack mean WFH is a genuine long-term option. We're considering a small hot-desk facility for those who need to be around other people (and face to face meetings will be useful on occasion), but in general, this is the new paradigm.

Doofus - how are you paying your overseas employee, they will need to pay tax in the country of residence and where they are working from so surely you will need to pay them there meaning you will need a local employing entity and will have to pay corporation tax etc.? Sounds a whole heap of extra pain? If you read the small print of the companies saying ‘work from anywhere’ it normally says ‘anywhere under the jurisdiction of HMRC’ to avoid exactly those issues.

They are UK resident for tax purposes, but I already have an HR consultant, thank you.

ETA: They don't live abroad full-time, but that wasn't relevant to the point of my original post.

I asked out of interest as I have heard that many companies, including some/all of the big 4 accountants, have recently stopped people doing any work from abroad apart from when on a legitimate business trip ie no logging in when on holiday or extended visits to family overseas splitting the time between work and vacation. They seem really worried that people carrying out any work in another jurisdiction will potentially create both the employee and employer tax liabilities. It sounds like a reaction to people heading off to live overseas during lockdown. I suppose it makes sense, we would all probably be a bit miffed if people were living and working in the UK but paying no tax here but it could stuff a lot of people with seconds homes etc (I hear there are a few pissed of partners at the aforementioned companies). It is interesting to hear real world examples of where companies have made this work, I’m glad you have taken proper advice to minimise risk.

[Doofus]

She is UK resident, and spends, I think, about five months in NL where her husband is from. It's a role that can easily be performed from anywhere, using VPN. The point, taking into account your comments, was that we have far greater flexibility to employ people who are outside commuting distance to the office, just by changing our attitude as to why people need to come to the office in the first place.

I've had to deal with one person who thought it would be cool to get a second WFH job, before working out that working from home only gave him about ten more hours per weeks, not 37.5.

As I understand it, as well as getting fired by us, he failed his probation with them too.

[dxg]

These latter posts are really emphasising a point I've made in other threads on here.

The work from home mentality opens the door to en masse offshoring.

If the social cohesion of the organisation no longer requires physical presence then all organisations suddenly become global networks of legally separate entities.

The massive growth in the pipeline of new London commercial tower construction suggests, however, that companies still want the physical element and a coherent/controllable structure...

[Welshbeef]

HappySilver said:

I asked out of interest as I have heard that many companies, including some/all of the big 4 accountants, have recently stopped people doing any work from abroad apart from when on a legitimate business trip ie no logging in when on holiday or extended visits to family overseas splitting the time between work and vacation. They seem really worried that people carrying out any work in another jurisdiction will potentially create both the employee and employer tax liabilities. It sounds like a reaction to people heading off to live overseas during lockdown. I suppose it makes sense, we would all probably be a bit miffed if people were living and working in the UK but paying no tax here but it could stuff a lot of people with seconds homes etc (I hear there are a few pissed of partners at the aforementioned companies). It is interesting to hear real world examples of where companies have made this work, I’m glad you have taken proper advice to minimise risk.

Surely a practical solution to this for an employee who say wants to base out of Chamonix for the entire ski season simply needs a VPN & not broadcast the fact to his other work mates.
Fly back for any actually required meetings.

[HappySilver]

Welshbeef said:

HappySilver said:

I asked out of interest as I have heard that many companies, including some/all of the big 4 accountants, have recently stopped people doing any work from abroad apart from when on a legitimate business trip ie no logging in when on holiday or extended visits to family overseas splitting the time between work and vacation. They seem really worried that people carrying out any work in another jurisdiction will potentially create both the employee and employer tax liabilities. It sounds like a reaction to people heading off to live overseas during lockdown. I suppose it makes sense, we would all probably be a bit miffed if people were living and working in the UK but paying no tax here but it could stuff a lot of people with seconds homes etc (I hear there are a few pissed of partners at the aforementioned companies). It is interesting to hear real world examples of where companies have made this work, I’m glad you have taken proper advice to minimise risk.

Surely a practical solution to this for an employee who say wants to base out of Chamonix for the entire ski season simply needs a VPN & not broadcast the fact to his other work mates.
Fly back for any actually required meetings.

So your solution is to commit tax fraud in the country you are working in 😊

The underlying problem is we have a state based tax system, every country wants their cut, but technology operates and we now think on a more global basis.

[Welshbeef]

HappySilver said:

So your solution is to commit tax fraud in the country you are working in ??

The underlying problem is we have a state based tax system, every country wants their cut, but technology operates and we now think on a more global basis.

I was merely pointing out a workable solution.

There have been digital nomads for some time but in tiny numbers - I know / have met some in Bansko Bulgaria, they live there year round it’s dirt cheap and a quiet outdoors style of life which they enjoy.

The biggest worry with WFH forever not just short medium term is jobs will leave the expensive salaried U.K. to any other country with much lower salaries and equality skilled countries.

[TTOBES]

My HR dept a couple of months ago came up with two days a week working from home.

Turns out that speech wasn't delivered correctly - they meant two days a week working from home between then and June, but nobody has started doing that.

Now our CEO is suggesting, in coordination with the founders of the company, that the whole group work from home on a Wednesday. During a UK office call however, it dawned on him that this idea wouldn't be as simple as different teams have different requirements and preferences etc.

With less than a month to go there is still no WFH policy. This is financial services. We also signed a lease on our own office in February last year, oops. Prior to that we were in a WeWork with just a month's notice so things might have been different if we were still there.

[Bullett]

I'm not 100% convinced. People like to work with those who are similar to themselves from a work culture. Even working across Europe/America/Asia and UK the practices and approaches are different along with the expectations. Time zones will keep people reasonably close to your customers otherwise you are working ooh in your location.
Ironically, the fact that covid has enabled this wholesale shift to WFH I think it will also keep people local due to potential travel restrictions. No more popping to France/UK for the day. The green agenda/carbon credits may play into that as well.

My industry has had extensive homeworking for years, there are pockets of cheaper countries but they tend to be backroom technical staff, all the customer facing 'build a relationship' stuff is in region.

However, as with most situations its likely to be the lower level, entry and 24hr operating staff that get outsourced. So long term if no one is coming in at the bottom locally then those skill will eventually be elsewhere.

[Welshbeef]

TTOBES said:

My HR dept a couple of months ago came up with two days a week working from home.

Turns out that speech wasn't delivered correctly - they meant two days a week working from home between then and June, but nobody has started doing that.

Now our CEO is suggesting, in coordination with the founders of the company, that the whole group work from home on a Wednesday. During a UK office call however, it dawned on him that this idea wouldn't be as simple as different teams have different requirements and preferences etc.

With less than a month to go there is still no WFH policy. This is financial services. We also signed a lease on our own office in February last year, oops. Prior to that we were in a WeWork with just a month's notice so things might have been different if we were still there.

And that is where it falls down the whole hybrid thing in theory sounds good until you then realise all meetings would have to be organised throughout the company for those days.

Add in - like I experienced a week or so ago. Meeting arranged face to face but I was already in the office when he had to cancel Face2 face as kids were home from school/normal sick non covid. So rearrange to another day (in the office). Whilst in the office a few were on zooms so was I and simply inadequate meeting rooms (for hardly anyone in) zoom doesn’t work when in an open office as it picks up calls other meetings and and chat between people. I wonder will conf calls make a come back or are they deader than dead.

The flex working is supposed to free up more office space. However plenty always WFH on Fridays anyway (meetings etc Mon-Thurs and Friday admin day).
Busy periods / month ends/Pricing / online training etc was always done from home anyway.

[Jaguar99]

We had an email through today from the MD/HR saying that if the Gov goes ahead with the next stage of lockdown on 21/06 and assuming this includes adjustment of the WFH advice then they will be looking to bring people back into the office from the first week in July. No mention of hybrid or flexible working.

I just hope that the Gov wind back the mask wearing advice at the same time so that the Company can adjust the policy on that (currently masks required everywhere except sitting at a desk...)

[Steve Campbell]

We are still waiting for the higher ups to decide what the new normal will be after very early confirmation we wouldn't be back in the offices before end June. at the earliest.

Given the company has continued to grow since March 2020, and there are actually more people than seats now, I fully expect the organisation to move to a much more flexible arrangement with full hot desk / booking systems if you are in the London office with a focus on being in the office when collaboration / team meetings are required rather than visible every day.

I expect the office location will be re-modelled to suite this new normal aswell, with potentially less seats and more meeting space

Edited by Steve Campbell on Tuesday 25th May 14:31

[anonymous-user]

Jaguar99 said:

We had an email through today from the MD/HR saying that if the Gov goes ahead with the next stage of lockdown on 21/06 and assuming this includes adjustment of the WFH advice then they will be looking to bring people back into the office from the first week in July. No mention of hybrid or flexible working.

I just hope that the Gov wind back the mask wearing advice at the same time so that the Company can adjust the policy on that (currently masks required everywhere except sitting at a desk...)

The masks thing is purely your company policy, and nothing to do with the government advice. The company could drop the requirement to wear masks right now. Not sure why they are waiting for the government to change anything?

I've been back working in several different client offices over the last few weeks and masks have not been required in any of them, at any time. In fact the only time I wore a mask at all over the course of last week was for 20 seconds as we walked through a restaurant to our table when going for after work dinner and drinks, and when I popped into the local sandwich shop to buy lunch.

[Jaguar99]

Lord Marylebone said:

The masks thing is purely your company policy, and nothing to do with the government advice. The company could drop the requirement to wear masks right now. Not sure why they are waiting for the government to change anything?

I've been back working in several different client offices over the last few weeks and masks have not been required in any of them, at any time. In fact the only time I wore a mask at all over the course of last week was for 20 seconds as we walked through a restaurant to our table when going for after work dinner and drinks, and when I popped into the local sandwich shop to buy lunch.

I know it’s Company policy rather than anything else but the hope is that if the Gov knocks masks on the head the Company will follow suit