Return to office - your situation
Discussion
mw88 said:
Welshbeef said:
The biggest worry for people who WFH since covid is - why pay UK or SE UK rates when say India you can get 5-10 individuals equally skilled to deliver the role.
I doubt it's a worry for most people.We've outsourced stuff for years, but from my experience
The quality of work is never as good.
They don't understand the business or the sector.
They don't understand how to product is used.
They need clear/direct instructions, they never offer ideas or innovation to push the product forward.
Agree, have onboarded an India development team over the last 5 years and it still a very basic transactional relationship with little innovation.
As always it works in some areas, but find a western leadership is still needed to keep them on track (much like China 10 years ago)
I'm debating a move, but would only jump if the role came with more guaranteed office time.
As always it works in some areas, but find a western leadership is still needed to keep them on track (much like China 10 years ago)
I'm debating a move, but would only jump if the role came with more guaranteed office time.
Wow for the casual racism / stereotypes presented in the last 3 posts.
If you assume that the west is smart and elsewhere isn’t then you deserve everything you get and should take a long hard look at your views.
My experience is the opposite - I grew a team in India that were as innovative and as good as any other in the company. We had great local management and some really smart folk in the team.
Yes comms was a bit trickier due to timezones but the advantage of being able to hire large numbers of software engineers quickly in India vs the incredibly difficult hiring process in the uk is night and day.
Until you’ve hired 30+ engineers in both locations I’m not sure presenting the usual fear of outsourcing based stereotypes is that accurate anymore….
P.s. the cost of an engineer in Bangalore is about the same as the cost in the UK, so it isn’t actually about money either…
If you assume that the west is smart and elsewhere isn’t then you deserve everything you get and should take a long hard look at your views.
My experience is the opposite - I grew a team in India that were as innovative and as good as any other in the company. We had great local management and some really smart folk in the team.
Yes comms was a bit trickier due to timezones but the advantage of being able to hire large numbers of software engineers quickly in India vs the incredibly difficult hiring process in the uk is night and day.
Until you’ve hired 30+ engineers in both locations I’m not sure presenting the usual fear of outsourcing based stereotypes is that accurate anymore….
P.s. the cost of an engineer in Bangalore is about the same as the cost in the UK, so it isn’t actually about money either…
fat80b said:
Wow for the casual racism / stereotypes presented in the last 3 posts.
If you assume that the west is smart and elsewhere isn’t then you deserve everything you get and should take a long hard look at your views.
My experience is the opposite - I grew a team in India that were as innovative and as good as any other in the company. We had great local management and some really smart folk in the team.
Yes comms was a bit trickier due to timezones but the advantage of being able to hire large numbers of software engineers quickly in India vs the incredibly difficult hiring process in the uk is night and day.
Until you’ve hired 30+ engineers in both locations I’m not sure presenting the usual fear of outsourcing based stereotypes is that accurate anymore….
P.s. the cost of an engineer in Bangalore is about the same as the cost in the UK, so it isn’t actually about money either…
Its not casual racism / stereotypes. Its a factual account of people's experiences.If you assume that the west is smart and elsewhere isn’t then you deserve everything you get and should take a long hard look at your views.
My experience is the opposite - I grew a team in India that were as innovative and as good as any other in the company. We had great local management and some really smart folk in the team.
Yes comms was a bit trickier due to timezones but the advantage of being able to hire large numbers of software engineers quickly in India vs the incredibly difficult hiring process in the uk is night and day.
Until you’ve hired 30+ engineers in both locations I’m not sure presenting the usual fear of outsourcing based stereotypes is that accurate anymore….
P.s. the cost of an engineer in Bangalore is about the same as the cost in the UK, so it isn’t actually about money either…
Its certainly in line with my experience - quality of work done wasnt fantastic and requiring clear / direct instructions and processes to follow to the letter and not innovating above that.
Our most recent hiring experience was that notice periods are very long and that people often apply for other jobs as leverage with their current employer, so even when you make an offer and its accepted (on the anticipation of a 2+ month notice period), then some weeks down the line they will withdraw, which is a ball ache all round.
Your experience may well be different but that doesnt make our experience racist.
Edited by Deep Thought on Wednesday 19th January 10:33
With some of our staff now wanting to continue WFH we're outsourcing alot of roles. We've recently hired two customer service / administration positions - in Ukraine. Initial impressions are that they are bloody brilliant. They already work for may Western Technology brands and they are a 1/3 of the cost of an entitled UK worker. They are hungry for more business so wherever it's practical, we'll continue to use Eastern European's in the home countries as a resource.
fat80b said:
Deep Thought said:
Its not casual racism / stereotypes. Its a factual account of people's experiences.
It may be based on experiences but lumping together an entire group of people and saying “they are all the same” is literally the dictionary definition of a racial stereotype….fat80b said:
Deep Thought said:
Its not casual racism / stereotypes. Its a factual account of people's experiences.
It may be based on experiences but lumping together an entire group of people and saying “they are all the same” is literally the dictionary definition of a racial stereotype….
Candellara said:
With some of our staff now wanting to continue WFH we're outsourcing alot of roles. We've recently hired two customer service / administration positions - in Ukraine. Initial impressions are that they are bloody brilliant. They already work for may Western Technology brands and they are a 1/3 of the cost of an entitled UK worker. They are hungry for more business so wherever it's practical, we'll continue to use Eastern European's in the home countries as a resource.
I might detect a hint of resentment for WFH 
On the other end of the scale, one of my team members recently handed in his notice.
He was outsourced by a SoCal tech company in a mostly remote role. Great way to walk into 6 figure salary.
Doofus said:
Welshbeef said:
The biggest worry for people who WFH since covid is - why pay UK or SE UK rates when say India you can get 5-10 individuals equally skilled to deliver the role.
It's really not. UK Companies have outsourced offshore for years, and they still employ people in the UK as well. The biggest worry for people WFH is physical space and the mental health issues that can arise from isolation.
anxious_ant said:
I might detect a hint of resentment for WFH
On the other end of the scale, one of my team members recently handed in his notice.
He was outsourced by a SoCal tech company in a mostly remote role. Great way to walk into 6 figure salary.
Hmmmm :-) For some roles, it works and works fine. The problem is that then everybody thinks they have the right to work from home etc We've had more instances of requests for flexible working and WFH (that in the main get rejected due to the nature of work)On the other end of the scale, one of my team members recently handed in his notice.
He was outsourced by a SoCal tech company in a mostly remote role. Great way to walk into 6 figure salary.
IT project work, sales, online / telephone customer service - all works no problem but we now have production workers requesting to work from home! It has taught us one thing though, if we can make the WFH thing work for some roles - we're recruiting throughout Europe (both West & East) which has opened up a massive new labour pool to us often at lower costs.
jwilco said:
Where are you both getting these facts from? I WFH and don't worry about either of these things - should I?
Lots of variables contribute to this answer that only you can answer honestly.- It depends on your job
- Can your job be performed in a country with cheaper labour?
- Do you have a leadership team in the company you work for that are looking to reduce labour costs? (I know of a Pakistani led company that are offshoring lots of roles to Pakistan)
- Are your competitors doing it and thus reducing their costs?
I do see over the long term WFH suppressing wages in the South East and raising wages in the north, Scotland, Wales, etc. If the roles do not get outsourced to another country. WFH does promote globalisation
jwilco said:
Doofus said:
Welshbeef said:
The biggest worry for people who WFH since covid is - why pay UK or SE UK rates when say India you can get 5-10 individuals equally skilled to deliver the role.
It's really not. UK Companies have outsourced offshore for years, and they still employ people in the UK as well. The biggest worry for people WFH is physical space and the mental health issues that can arise from isolation.
The mental health issues are fairly well documented, and one of the reasons why a lot of people do want to get back to the office.
Ashfordian said:
jwilco said:
Where are you both getting these facts from? I WFH and don't worry about either of these things - should I?
Lots of variables contribute to this answer that only you can answer honestly.- It depends on your job
- Can your job be performed in a country with cheaper labour?
- Do you have a leadership team in the company you work for that are looking to reduce labour costs? (I know of a Pakistani led company that are offshoring lots of roles to Pakistan)
- Are your competitors doing it and thus reducing their costs?
I do see over the long term WFH suppressing wages in the South East and raising wages in the north, Scotland, Wales, etc. If the roles do not get outsourced to another country. WFH does promote globalisation
Big opportunities for individuals too, especially in big companies that have global offices.
fat80b said:
Deep Thought said:
Its not casual racism / stereotypes. Its a factual account of people's experiences.
It may be based on experiences but lumping together an entire group of people and saying “they are all the same” is literally the dictionary definition of a racial stereotype….vulture1 said:
Well having just had a teams training session today, 2 facilitators and 6 of us in to learn. 3 said nothing the whole meeting and no camera on. no real ability to read the room and no personal interation or ability to read body language.
You need to manage people. You wouldn't let them turn up to an in-person training session and leave the room for most of it.Remote training = camera on.
Candellara said:
With some of our staff now wanting to continue WFH we're outsourcing alot of roles. We've recently hired two customer service / administration positions - in Ukraine. Initial impressions are that they are bloody brilliant. They already work for may Western Technology brands and they are a 1/3 of the cost of an entitled UK worker. They are hungry for more business so wherever it's practical, we'll continue to use Eastern European's in the home countries as a resource.
Sounds like you were already looking to resource offshore to save money. Are you making your 'entitled' UK workers redundant somehow? Sporky said:
vulture1 said:
Well having just had a teams training session today, 2 facilitators and 6 of us in to learn. 3 said nothing the whole meeting and no camera on. no real ability to read the room and no personal interation or ability to read body language.
You need to manage people. You wouldn't let them turn up to an in-person training session and leave the room for most of it.Remote training = camera on.
The one i'm with currently is cameras off. Quite disconcerting sitting looking at a black screen - hard to read your audience - and i definitely think they loose something by not having them on.
Candellara said:
With some of our staff now wanting to continue WFH we're outsourcing alot of roles. We've recently hired two customer service / administration positions - in Ukraine. Initial impressions are that they are bloody brilliant. They already work for may Western Technology brands and they are a 1/3 of the cost of an entitled UK worker. They are hungry for more business so wherever it's practical, we'll continue to use Eastern European's in the home countries as a resource.
Let us know how they get on when Vlad's missiles are hitting the building, yeah? Slightly tongue-in-cheek but perhaps not. Time will tell.
The UK is a popular place for people to be based as it is generally stable.
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