Return to office - your situation
Discussion
ElectricSoup said:
Yes Ok, customer facing roles are different.
I don concur that IT project roles are probably suited to WFH but i really think that it depends on the role and the type of person that is subsequently employed within it An IT professional or middle management should be able to be trusted to work effectively from home and balance their priorities accordingly. A 22 year old working in a call centre or customer service role - less so.
Candellara said:
ElectricSoup said:
Yes Ok, customer facing roles are different.
I don concur that IT project roles are probably suited to WFH but i really think that it depends on the role and the type of person that is subsequently employed within it An IT professional or middle management should be able to be trusted to work effectively from home and balance their priorities accordingly. A 22 year old working in a call centre or customer service role - less so.
I'm 51 already and not got long left in the workplace (I hope), but in some regards I'd rather my manager was a young digital native these days than a dinosaur presenteeist.
Candellara said:
Depends on their role. For us, it starts at 9.00 as our customers are active from this time forward and seeking timely responses etc so it's not acceptable that someone has gone shopping or is walking the dog when they have a customer awaiting an immediate response from them. It is, in our line of work wholly inadequate. Some staff can be trusted to work well from home (depending on their role) but unfortunately there will always be a percentage of staff that cannot be trusted to work productively.
If you've got a problem with a percentage of your staffs' productivity, why are you letting that dictate how you manage the productive majority of your staff too?If you've got an unproductive member of staff, why not sit down with them and say things have got to improve and come up with a plan with them to try to achieve that improvement? That could include having them work from the office.
ATG said:
If you've got a problem with a percentage of your staffs' productivity, why are you letting that dictate how you manage the productive majority of your staff too?
If you've got an unproductive member of staff, why not sit down with them and say things have got to improve and come up with a plan with them to try to achieve that improvement? That could include having them work from the office.
It's not compromising the way we manage the overall staff as the overwhelming majority of staff wish to return to the office (notably all of the one's that work effectively). In my experience, if you have an unproductive member of staff - they'll be unproductive either at home or at work. They are just easier to manage at work.If you've got an unproductive member of staff, why not sit down with them and say things have got to improve and come up with a plan with them to try to achieve that improvement? That could include having them work from the office.
Every business needs soldiers and with the best will in the world, there are many staff in monotonous, relatively unskilled roles that simply turn up to work in order to receive a monthly pay cheque. Nothing more, nothing less and these roles need fulfilling. They are either managed by customer demand / workload or middle management. It is "generally" these individuals that don't work effectively unmanaged.
Why is it easier to manage them "at work" by which you mean "in the office"? Why does it make it easier to track how many calls their dealing with, how much time they're spending interacting with customers, how the customers feel after the interaction, etc. ? If you're not gathering those sorts of metrics, then how are you managing your business?
ro250 said:
Aunty Pasty said:
ro250 said:
It's the 50% thing which worries me if my employer pushes for it.
Living in a commuter belt for London, going in 3 days a week costs about the same as every day (if buying annual season ticket) so although it will save time and energy I am not inclined to do 3 days.
I am hoping for 1-2 days (or just ad-hoc which would seem most sensible).
Same here. The whole weekly/monthly/yearly season ticket pricing model just doesn't suit ad-hoc or irregular commuting. I wish they'd switch to something a bit more flexible such as bulk buy tickets to be used more flexibly.Living in a commuter belt for London, going in 3 days a week costs about the same as every day (if buying annual season ticket) so although it will save time and energy I am not inclined to do 3 days.
I am hoping for 1-2 days (or just ad-hoc which would seem most sensible).
If I was forced to do a 50% in-office routine I'll try to angle for an alternate Mon, Tue, Wed one week followed by a Thur, Fri the other week.
Edited by Aunty Pasty on Friday 14th May 11:52
Annoyingly, the flexible ticket does exist for some operators. C2C do it and it looks great value. Greater Anglia also do but the discount is pennies so not worth it. Guess which line I use...
If people go back on these hybrid work/home timetables maybe some of them will look to offer more flexible ticketing to ensure they retain more commuters. My suspicion is that they will just raise the prices further and no doubt the drivers/inspectors etc will be shouting for their pay rise. I think my ticket price is already at the point where a single day return in peak time is about the same as driving a gas guzzler in to work and parking for the day. If I'm only required to go in 1 or 2 days I'd rather travel in my own metal bubble.
Candellara said:
It's not compromising the way we manage the overall staff as the overwhelming majority of staff wish to return to the office (notably all of the one's that work effectively). In my experience, if you have an unproductive member of staff - they'll be unproductive either at home or at work. They are just easier to manage at work.
Every business needs soldiers and with the best will in the world, there are many staff in monotonous, relatively unskilled roles that simply turn up to work in order to receive a monthly pay cheque. Nothing more, nothing less and these roles need fulfilling. They are either managed by customer demand / workload or middle management. It is "generally" these individuals that don't work effectively unmanaged.
I’m not sure the business you work for is a glowing beacon of modern employment. I’m seem to remember the theme of your posts in a different thread were that if anyone doesn’t wish to come back into the office full time they can sod off and work somewhere else.Every business needs soldiers and with the best will in the world, there are many staff in monotonous, relatively unskilled roles that simply turn up to work in order to receive a monthly pay cheque. Nothing more, nothing less and these roles need fulfilling. They are either managed by customer demand / workload or middle management. It is "generally" these individuals that don't work effectively unmanaged.
There are many businesses which operate call centre and customers service type roles from home perfectly well, and can effectively manage their staff. I work with some of these businesses.
If the business is falling down on managing the performance of employees, then that is a failure of management and not necessarily a failure of working from home.
nunpuncher said:
It'll be an interesting time for the rail operators. I'd imagine their profits will be massively down over the last year. Were they subsidised by the government to fill this hole? If so will that continue?
If people go back on these hybrid work/home timetables maybe some of them will look to offer more flexible ticketing to ensure they retain more commuters. My suspicion is that they will just raise the prices further and no doubt the drivers/inspectors etc will be shouting for their pay rise. I think my ticket price is already at the point where a single day return in peak time is about the same as driving a gas guzzler in to work and parking for the day. If I'm only required to go in 1 or 2 days I'd rather travel in my own metal bubble.
I believe most lines have pretty much been put back into State ownership / renationalised, effectively.If people go back on these hybrid work/home timetables maybe some of them will look to offer more flexible ticketing to ensure they retain more commuters. My suspicion is that they will just raise the prices further and no doubt the drivers/inspectors etc will be shouting for their pay rise. I think my ticket price is already at the point where a single day return in peak time is about the same as driving a gas guzzler in to work and parking for the day. If I'm only required to go in 1 or 2 days I'd rather travel in my own metal bubble.
Lord Marylebone said:
I’m not sure the business you work for is a glowing beacon of modern employment.
I guess there's a modicum of truth in that as i come from an era where the company is graciously providing one with employment rather than the staff member doing you a favour by working for you. "Modern employment" or the tail wagging the dog? I must stress that this of course is a minority of staff members but as you mention call centre's etc - i know full well that you have staff issues so it'd be wrong to suggest that all members of staff at all times are 100% committed to their jobs.Most of the staff where i work are extremely long standing members of the team with most having received their ten year watch and are remunerated very handsomely but that said, no one is indispensable from the very junior members of the team through to the most senior. Everyone likes to thing they are but the reality is that the wheels keep turning and on business goes.
I guess times are changing with the amount of Covid redundancies so hopefully staff will start learning to appreciate their employment / employers a little more.
Edited by Candellara on Friday 14th May 14:40
Lord Marylebone said:
I’m not sure the business you work for is a glowing beacon of modern employment. I’m seem to remember the theme of your posts in a different thread were that if anyone doesn’t wish to come back into the office full time they can sod off and work somewhere else.
There are many businesses which operate call centre and customers service type roles from home perfectly well, and can effectively manage their staff. I work with some of these businesses.
If the business is falling down on managing the performance of employees, then that is a failure of management and not necessarily a failure of working from home.
Yes totally agree. If anything it’s easier to monitor, quantify and therefore manage lower tier staff. The output tends to be easier to measure?There are many businesses which operate call centre and customers service type roles from home perfectly well, and can effectively manage their staff. I work with some of these businesses.
If the business is falling down on managing the performance of employees, then that is a failure of management and not necessarily a failure of working from home.
One thing I hope to see... for those orgs whose productivity went up when they moved to working from home, I hope they do some research into why it went up.
For example, as an IT consultant, a huge amount of the work I do is thought work. To do this best I need a quiet place with no distractions. The kind of thing that simply doesn't exist in a modern office. I'd be more inclined to be in favour of returning to an office full time, if said office gave me the ability to quietly concentrate as my home office does. There is nothing worse than open plan hot desking.
I've often thought in a modern office, the 'private offices' should be given to the technical producers of thought-based work, not the execs.
For example, as an IT consultant, a huge amount of the work I do is thought work. To do this best I need a quiet place with no distractions. The kind of thing that simply doesn't exist in a modern office. I'd be more inclined to be in favour of returning to an office full time, if said office gave me the ability to quietly concentrate as my home office does. There is nothing worse than open plan hot desking.
I've often thought in a modern office, the 'private offices' should be given to the technical producers of thought-based work, not the execs.
An example of what Lord Marylebone was saying above; a friend does some part-time work for Auto Trader (I think?) providing customer support for people trying to place car ads on the website. They provide her with a laptop and she is free to work from wherever she's got a decent internet connection. She's a freelance photographer and just wanted a bit of stable income alongside her self-employed activities.
All very 21st century. Everyone benefiting from the flexibility. Cheap and efficient for the employer. Provides the employee with some low risk income that allows her to also be entrepreneurial. It's not just a productivity booster for AutoTrader, there's a multiplier effect for the wider economy by letting the employee take more risk elsewhere.
I was talking to a Plaid Cymru county councillor last week, and he made a couple very good points (!) about how having good quality state-financed education and healthcare is a great enabler for entrepreneurs given that so many earn bugger all or have their businesses fail in the first couple of years. If you provide a safety net for their failures, they can then afford to keep trying new ideas until they manage to establish viable businesses which then benefit all of us. Flexible part-time work is another risk-reducer that lets people then take on more entrepreneurial risk.
All very 21st century. Everyone benefiting from the flexibility. Cheap and efficient for the employer. Provides the employee with some low risk income that allows her to also be entrepreneurial. It's not just a productivity booster for AutoTrader, there's a multiplier effect for the wider economy by letting the employee take more risk elsewhere.
I was talking to a Plaid Cymru county councillor last week, and he made a couple very good points (!) about how having good quality state-financed education and healthcare is a great enabler for entrepreneurs given that so many earn bugger all or have their businesses fail in the first couple of years. If you provide a safety net for their failures, they can then afford to keep trying new ideas until they manage to establish viable businesses which then benefit all of us. Flexible part-time work is another risk-reducer that lets people then take on more entrepreneurial risk.
Candellara said:
I guess there's a modicum of truth in that as i come from an era where the company is graciously providing one with employment rather than the staff member doing you a favour by working for you.
...
I guess times are changing with the amount of Covid redundancies so hopefully staff will start learning to appreciate their employment / employers a little more.
Not sure if serious?...
I guess times are changing with the amount of Covid redundancies so hopefully staff will start learning to appreciate their employment / employers a little more.
Respect should be shown from both sides, and employment should be a contract between equals. Gratitude and appreciation should work both ways.
If this stuff isn't mutual you get the "them and us" divides that riddled and knackered British industry a generation ago. High-handed, incompetent, ivory-tower management and resentful, inflexible and obstructive workforces.
The 22yo in the call centre is very easy to manage remotely.
Call centre workers are monitored and managed to within an inch of their lives. They have schedules they must stick to, you can easily count the calls they have handled, and the outcomes analysed.
Mostly automatically.
It can actually work better, a lot of call centres have a morning and afternoon peak. It's not practical to have people come in then go home to come back later but I can do that with homeworkers, 2 hours in the morning 2 in the afternoon for example.
Several of the largest I work with have already stated they have no intention of returning to everyone in the building working.
Call centre workers are monitored and managed to within an inch of their lives. They have schedules they must stick to, you can easily count the calls they have handled, and the outcomes analysed.
Mostly automatically.
It can actually work better, a lot of call centres have a morning and afternoon peak. It's not practical to have people come in then go home to come back later but I can do that with homeworkers, 2 hours in the morning 2 in the afternoon for example.
Several of the largest I work with have already stated they have no intention of returning to everyone in the building working.
ATG said:
Respect should be shown from both sides, and employment should be a contract between equals. Gratitude and appreciation should work both ways.
Very much so - and similarly, the relationship between suppliers and customers. One party wants the other's money, and regards it as more valuable than the goods or services. The customer regards the goods or services as more valuable than the money. Everyone wins, and this is how you can be in sales without being even a little bit evil.Very interesting thread and contributions. I'm seeing it from two perspectives;
1) Me - PH trope guy, IT senior manager, global consultancy. Have a dedicated home office and will be quite happy spending 90% of my time at home for ever more.
2) Two early-20s sons, one started his first job three months before the first lockdown and has worked from home ever since, the other started his first job six months ago and has also been WFH 100%. One has commandeered the dining room for a dual monitor setup and the other has put a desk and dual monitors in his bedroom.
I really feel that the youngsters are missing out on the office interaction; I also see it with the new grads in my team. As much as you try to keep engagement up with Kahoot quizzes and virtual beers it's just not the same. I hope for both their sakes that they will be back in the office soon.
1) Me - PH trope guy, IT senior manager, global consultancy. Have a dedicated home office and will be quite happy spending 90% of my time at home for ever more.
2) Two early-20s sons, one started his first job three months before the first lockdown and has worked from home ever since, the other started his first job six months ago and has also been WFH 100%. One has commandeered the dining room for a dual monitor setup and the other has put a desk and dual monitors in his bedroom.
I really feel that the youngsters are missing out on the office interaction; I also see it with the new grads in my team. As much as you try to keep engagement up with Kahoot quizzes and virtual beers it's just not the same. I hope for both their sakes that they will be back in the office soon.
CheesecakeRunner said:
One thing I hope to see... for those orgs whose productivity went up when they moved to working from home, I hope they do some research into why it went up.
For example, as an IT consultant, a huge amount of the work I do is thought work. To do this best I need a quiet place with no distractions. The kind of thing that simply doesn't exist in a modern office. I'd be more inclined to be in favour of returning to an office full time, if said office gave me the ability to quietly concentrate as my home office does. There is nothing worse than open plan hot desking.
I've often thought in a modern office, the 'private offices' should be given to the technical producers of thought-based work, not the execs.
I've always worked roles that require thought or generation of solutions and ideas. I've worked several places that have had "ideas rooms" or solo working booths but I've always found there's either never enough for the staff, they're not actually set up for working ie some sort of uncomfortable bench, crap monitor, couple of bean bags etc or they are always occupied by someone visiting from another office or someone on a (no doubt personal) call. When they start putting booking systems in for them the whole thing just stops working.For example, as an IT consultant, a huge amount of the work I do is thought work. To do this best I need a quiet place with no distractions. The kind of thing that simply doesn't exist in a modern office. I'd be more inclined to be in favour of returning to an office full time, if said office gave me the ability to quietly concentrate as my home office does. There is nothing worse than open plan hot desking.
I've often thought in a modern office, the 'private offices' should be given to the technical producers of thought-based work, not the execs.
I expect your sons, as they are from the digital native generation, see it differently to you and don't think they're missing out on anything. They're used to virtual communication so much more than we are as middle aged dinosaurs. They were born to it, we've had to learn it and and are emotionally attached to the old ways, which they will never really experience.
New world, new paradigm.
New world, new paradigm.
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