Thoughts and opinions on accoutaning software
Discussion
i'm having some issues getting the right accountancy software for my various business activities, and wondered what other peoples experiences are, and if someone had any recommendations.
I used to have a whole load of spreadsheets which i had designed which met my needs very well when i was quite small and had less than 20ish employees. Unfortunately no-one else could use the spreadsheets as they were very un-user friendly- i just made alterations as i went along.
As i grew i took on a couple of admin staff, who are very good at admin but have little accounting experience- one has very little experience of excel. So i thought, why not go to a supported package- i moved 4 of my businesses to Sage.
Well it was a total nightmare- starting sage from scratch was no fun- and getting anything wrong caused more problems. The staff i had found using it very difficult- and they only needed half of it- invoicing is done outside of sage! Being in the retails and service sector there are loads of smallish transactions to account for, and sage doesn't make this very user friendly.
i have now had enough and as i am altering business structures for which i need to start new accounts, i though i would have a clean start on software too.
What do people recommend:
- Back to spreadsheets? easy to use but not the most functional
-Another accountancy package?- if so what? it needs to be very very easy to use, self explanatory almost, and very easy to get your head around.
-sack one of my staff and farm it out to an accountant- who i don't beleive would be as cheap or as adaptable.
-another option which i haven't thought of yet?
thanks all
Jim
I used to have a whole load of spreadsheets which i had designed which met my needs very well when i was quite small and had less than 20ish employees. Unfortunately no-one else could use the spreadsheets as they were very un-user friendly- i just made alterations as i went along.
As i grew i took on a couple of admin staff, who are very good at admin but have little accounting experience- one has very little experience of excel. So i thought, why not go to a supported package- i moved 4 of my businesses to Sage.
Well it was a total nightmare- starting sage from scratch was no fun- and getting anything wrong caused more problems. The staff i had found using it very difficult- and they only needed half of it- invoicing is done outside of sage! Being in the retails and service sector there are loads of smallish transactions to account for, and sage doesn't make this very user friendly.
i have now had enough and as i am altering business structures for which i need to start new accounts, i though i would have a clean start on software too.
What do people recommend:
- Back to spreadsheets? easy to use but not the most functional
-Another accountancy package?- if so what? it needs to be very very easy to use, self explanatory almost, and very easy to get your head around.
-sack one of my staff and farm it out to an accountant- who i don't beleive would be as cheap or as adaptable.
-another option which i haven't thought of yet?
thanks all
Jim
Sage is a bit inflexible at times although it can be "forced" to do what you want it to do if necessary.
Quickbooks is a popular alternative - although it is a bit TOO flexible at times.
I agree that farming out day to day book=keeping to an external accountant is not usually a satisfactory alternative.
Maybe hiring a "good" part-time (and maybe qualified - AAT) book-keeper might be the answer. They are, however, rather thin on the ground.
Quickbooks is a popular alternative - although it is a bit TOO flexible at times.
I agree that farming out day to day book=keeping to an external accountant is not usually a satisfactory alternative.
Maybe hiring a "good" part-time (and maybe qualified - AAT) book-keeper might be the answer. They are, however, rather thin on the ground.
There is a market opportunity here I believe. For many small businesses an accountant is overkill, but spreadsheets can only take you so far. I don't think many of the software offerings really hit the spot in terms of completely hiding the nastiness of "doing the books" - many try, dressing data entry forms to look like cheques and deposit slips etc, but it never takes long before you scratch the surface and run into nasties like double-entry, journals, trial balances, P&L etc.
Some years my business turnover has been as low as 20k, yet it still costs me 1k to take a few invoices and receipts and turn them into statutory accounts, which is madness - turning a just about viable business into a financial millstone.
A service providing some simple and useable software, and a couple of hours a week of handholding from someone to make sure the softwae is being used correctly and records kept properly, and output that an accountant could quickly turn into proper accounts; does this exist?
What do accountants think of the various software offerings? Which are the easiest for them to deal with? MYOB, Quickbooks, Sage? Maybe I have just had bad experiences with accountants who are overly keen to protect their bottom line, but I have lost count of how many times I've asked that of my own accountants without ever getting a satisfactory answer.
Some years my business turnover has been as low as 20k, yet it still costs me 1k to take a few invoices and receipts and turn them into statutory accounts, which is madness - turning a just about viable business into a financial millstone.
A service providing some simple and useable software, and a couple of hours a week of handholding from someone to make sure the softwae is being used correctly and records kept properly, and output that an accountant could quickly turn into proper accounts; does this exist?
What do accountants think of the various software offerings? Which are the easiest for them to deal with? MYOB, Quickbooks, Sage? Maybe I have just had bad experiences with accountants who are overly keen to protect their bottom line, but I have lost count of how many times I've asked that of my own accountants without ever getting a satisfactory answer.
Thanks for uick replies chaps.
I perosnally quite like using SAGE, but then i have some accounting qualifications and understand the underlying accounting principles. Most admin staff don't get double entry (and trying to explain why a credit to a nominal isn't often a good thing goes right over their heads!).
As you say eric finding an AAT is just about impossible and the financial outlay makes using an accountant a more attractive option.
Whats quickbooks like to use in comparison- i have never enven seen a copy let along used a copy!
As victor says, there must be hundreds of businesses which are really past the stage of spreadhseets (and mine where pretty all encompassing- they had about 60 worksheets in them all linked together with formulae) but don't have th time/money/inclination to hire an accountant full time.
It's the part of the growth problem from going small time to big time in business- it's like a no-mans wasteland where you have to keep growing or you have to get down small again and work on the shopfloor yourself. It's a problem for me and others i beleive.
Does anyone have any interesting ideas?
I perosnally quite like using SAGE, but then i have some accounting qualifications and understand the underlying accounting principles. Most admin staff don't get double entry (and trying to explain why a credit to a nominal isn't often a good thing goes right over their heads!).
As you say eric finding an AAT is just about impossible and the financial outlay makes using an accountant a more attractive option.
Whats quickbooks like to use in comparison- i have never enven seen a copy let along used a copy!
As victor says, there must be hundreds of businesses which are really past the stage of spreadhseets (and mine where pretty all encompassing- they had about 60 worksheets in them all linked together with formulae) but don't have th time/money/inclination to hire an accountant full time.
It's the part of the growth problem from going small time to big time in business- it's like a no-mans wasteland where you have to keep growing or you have to get down small again and work on the shopfloor yourself. It's a problem for me and others i beleive.
Does anyone have any interesting ideas?
Accountants are probably the WORST people to give advice on accounting software packages. As we understand (supposedly) all the basic accounting principles, conventions, double entry, accounting and audit standards etc etc etc, we usually can work with most packages that exist. Consequently we find it hard to be objective about such systems when asked our opinion of them - tending to forget how difficult (and downright weird) some accounting techniques seem to "non-accountants".
For the "lay person", Quickbooks, in my experience is without doubt the most user friendly system out there. However, as has already been mentioned, sooner or later a person using Quickbooks will eventually have to face the dreaded "Journals". However, on a day to day baisis, for posting sales and purchase invoices and bank and cash receipts and payments, Quickbooks is pretty good.
I actually have never really used the book-keeping side of it - but I have reviewed accounts prepared on Quickbooks and find it very easy to interrogate the various accounts and to run-off whatever reports are needed.
For the "lay person", Quickbooks, in my experience is without doubt the most user friendly system out there. However, as has already been mentioned, sooner or later a person using Quickbooks will eventually have to face the dreaded "Journals". However, on a day to day baisis, for posting sales and purchase invoices and bank and cash receipts and payments, Quickbooks is pretty good.
I actually have never really used the book-keeping side of it - but I have reviewed accounts prepared on Quickbooks and find it very easy to interrogate the various accounts and to run-off whatever reports are needed.
pugwash
I have been a QuickBooks user for over 10 years, as EricMC says it can be a bit too flexible at times, but if you know the pitfalls (and with your accounting experience you should do) then it won't be a problem. The latest incarnations are a lot tighter (especially regarding VAT).
Quickbooks is miles more flexible and intuitive than Sage (I have used Sage as well) and I happily had accounts of a £2m T/O business in QuickBooks.
However most accountants prefer Sage as you cannot cheat!
davidy
I have been a QuickBooks user for over 10 years, as EricMC says it can be a bit too flexible at times, but if you know the pitfalls (and with your accounting experience you should do) then it won't be a problem. The latest incarnations are a lot tighter (especially regarding VAT).
Quickbooks is miles more flexible and intuitive than Sage (I have used Sage as well) and I happily had accounts of a £2m T/O business in QuickBooks.
However most accountants prefer Sage as you cannot cheat!
davidy
The comments here are right, I've spent several years working in accountancy working for a small practise. In recent years I have found endless problems where clients have moved to Sage and other packages and got into real trouble I blame this partly on software advertising account packages are sold as too easy to use and they don't mention that they all take time to setup and 'bed in'.
This is where my fairly new business came from, recently set up to offer support to small and medium sized businesses for accountancy and computer services. We are resellers for Sage because we do feel that they do offer a good overall service. Sage is flexible but as Eric says it does take some force! and it does pay to take time to decide what you really need from the software before you buy.
This is where my fairly new business came from, recently set up to offer support to small and medium sized businesses for accountancy and computer services. We are resellers for Sage because we do feel that they do offer a good overall service. Sage is flexible but as Eric says it does take some force! and it does pay to take time to decide what you really need from the software before you buy.
What about 'Microsoft Office Accounting Express 2007'? www.ideawins.com/
I know noting about this software, just remembered seeing a link to it the other day when downloading IE7. Free download
(though 340mbs IIRC)
My accounts peeps use Sage something or other.
I know noting about this software, just remembered seeing a link to it the other day when downloading IE7. Free download
(though 340mbs IIRC) My accounts peeps use Sage something or other.
pugwash4x4 said:
It's the part of the growth problem from going small time to big time in business- it's like a no-mans wasteland where you have to keep growing or you have to get down small again and work on the shopfloor yourself. It's a problem for me and others i beleive.
Ain't that the truth! There are so many areas where you need specialists (HR, IT, bookkeeping just for starters) and until your business has a critical mass to support specific people with those skills you are reliant on either part time help, outsourcing, or just DIY. It's a miracle any small businesses grow. Respect to those that do! Edited by victormeldrew on Thursday 2nd November 12:24
As I am only a little one person show I was doing all my accounts by paper, basically with cash received book and one of those Collins Self Assesment books, I just modified parts of the Collins book to fit my needs. But I was getting in a bit of a mess as adding everything up was a nightmare.
Then one day in my local Staples they were selling some things off half price, and in one of the plastic boxes was QuickBooks SimpleStart. As it was vastly reduced, I thought I would give it ago, and so far have been quite happy with it. When I get an order off a customer I create an invoice, then when I get paid I do a payments recived. At the end of the day I 'deposit' the days takings into the petty cash account. Expenses are tranferred from the petty cash account to whatever 'account' needed. And I can do all sorts of great reports.... sales by customer, sales by item, how much I have spent on stationary since year dot etc etc. Recipts in last year, month, week etc.
It's sinmple and it does the job for me, and I see no need to have to upgrade to the bigger system.
Then one day in my local Staples they were selling some things off half price, and in one of the plastic boxes was QuickBooks SimpleStart. As it was vastly reduced, I thought I would give it ago, and so far have been quite happy with it. When I get an order off a customer I create an invoice, then when I get paid I do a payments recived. At the end of the day I 'deposit' the days takings into the petty cash account. Expenses are tranferred from the petty cash account to whatever 'account' needed. And I can do all sorts of great reports.... sales by customer, sales by item, how much I have spent on stationary since year dot etc etc. Recipts in last year, month, week etc.
It's sinmple and it does the job for me, and I see no need to have to upgrade to the bigger system.
That's the secret. Avoid upgrading if possible - unless you have to. Upgrading becomes a necessity when your business expands and you NEED more sophisticated accounting controls and enhanced reporting.
It can also become necessary if the software manufacturer withdraws technical support - which they are wont to do after a number of years.
It can also become necessary if the software manufacturer withdraws technical support - which they are wont to do after a number of years.
Intresting thread. I come from the other side in that I develop business management software which includes and accounts module. There seems to be a great emphasis on the accounting aspect of software like Sage where as to me this is the least important part of the software. The basic rules of double entry book keeping have been around for over 500 years and any accounting software will manage it along with the VAT, Payroll etc.
The far more important part is finding software which will manage a business and best reflect the businesses process and workflow. It should not be necessary to fight the software to do this. The software should be a vital asset in helping manage the business rather than a hindrance to it.
I have seen many failed installations of "accounting software" (none of mine have failed I hasten to add). They basically fall into three categories:
1. The vendor mis-sold the software.
2. The business did not allocate enough resource to training, implementation or consultation (or all three).
3. The business bought the wrong software having failed to ascertain their requirements could be met by the software.
1. is usually down to the vendor not warning the client that they don’t have a cat in hells chance of actually implementing the software without training and consultancy. Less often it is down to the vendor lying about the software’s capabilities.
The far more important part is finding software which will manage a business and best reflect the businesses process and workflow. It should not be necessary to fight the software to do this. The software should be a vital asset in helping manage the business rather than a hindrance to it.
I have seen many failed installations of "accounting software" (none of mine have failed I hasten to add). They basically fall into three categories:
1. The vendor mis-sold the software.
2. The business did not allocate enough resource to training, implementation or consultation (or all three).
3. The business bought the wrong software having failed to ascertain their requirements could be met by the software.
1. is usually down to the vendor not warning the client that they don’t have a cat in hells chance of actually implementing the software without training and consultancy. Less often it is down to the vendor lying about the software’s capabilities.
No accounting software can work without the data inputters having SOME basic knowledge of double entry book-keeping and how it operates. That is the fundamental problem. If the basics aren't inputted properly, all the fancy reports in the world will be meaningless - and probably downright misleading.
My experience with small client's is that they buy the accounting software, have a go at using it, get disillousioned and then give up using it.
Or worse, continue using it in a half hearted way but continue to maintain a manual or a spreadheet based alternative for their REALLY important accounting information.
My experience with small client's is that they buy the accounting software, have a go at using it, get disillousioned and then give up using it.
Or worse, continue using it in a half hearted way but continue to maintain a manual or a spreadheet based alternative for their REALLY important accounting information.
I did an accounting GCSE, which to my surprise I passed with flying colours. So I have the basics for book keeping. Basically I do know that for every entry there has to be a corresponding entry elsewhere. I was manually doing my books, but I was having trouble with adding all the right figures together to put them in the right places in the SA form (the nice tax man did point out one small error that I made )
This QuickBook SimpleStart program has really helped me with keeping track of it all, but then I suppose that having a basic knowledge of what probably should go where and the impact that entry will have somewhere else is a big help. I admit that if I hadn't have had this bit of very rusty knowledge then I probably would have been totally flummoxed by it.
) This QuickBook SimpleStart program has really helped me with keeping track of it all, but then I suppose that having a basic knowledge of what probably should go where and the impact that entry will have somewhere else is a big help. I admit that if I hadn't have had this bit of very rusty knowledge then I probably would have been totally flummoxed by it.
Eric Mc said:
No accounting software can work without the data inputters having SOME basic knowledge of double entry book-keeping and how it operates. That is the fundamental problem. If the basics aren't inputted properly, all the fancy reports in the world will be meaningless - and probably downright misleading.
Why do they need this? Would you care to give me an example? Off hand I cant think of one instance where this is required for day to day input in our software.
I agree that many elements of computerised book-keeping allow a "one sided" entry in that the "other" aspect of the entry is automatically taken care of by the computer.
The main area where a knowledge of double entry would be very helpful (if not essential) is the processing of correcting entries - either by the "entry cancellation" facility usually provided in the software or by straightforward journals.
Time and time again I come across incorrect transactions posted by clients purely because they didn't understand the impact of the "hidden" side of the transaction they were posting or trying to correct.
Most non-bookkeepers or non-accountants avoid making journal entries because they don''t undrstand them. But, in fact, for true up to date bookkeeping, journals would be expected to be part of the noraml set of entries (after all, the word "Journal" comes from the fact that they would be posted in a "Journal Book" i.e a "Daily" book).
Other aspects of book-keeping not properly understood by non-trained individuals centre around the difference between Revenue and Capital. Therefore loan repayments are posted directly to Profit and Loss headings, Interest and other financial charges are not properly accounted for. Fixed Assets are incorrectly posted to the Profit and Loss account or, conversly, ordinary costs sometimes posted to the balance sheet.
The list is endless.
The main area where a knowledge of double entry would be very helpful (if not essential) is the processing of correcting entries - either by the "entry cancellation" facility usually provided in the software or by straightforward journals.
Time and time again I come across incorrect transactions posted by clients purely because they didn't understand the impact of the "hidden" side of the transaction they were posting or trying to correct.
Most non-bookkeepers or non-accountants avoid making journal entries because they don''t undrstand them. But, in fact, for true up to date bookkeeping, journals would be expected to be part of the noraml set of entries (after all, the word "Journal" comes from the fact that they would be posted in a "Journal Book" i.e a "Daily" book).
Other aspects of book-keeping not properly understood by non-trained individuals centre around the difference between Revenue and Capital. Therefore loan repayments are posted directly to Profit and Loss headings, Interest and other financial charges are not properly accounted for. Fixed Assets are incorrectly posted to the Profit and Loss account or, conversly, ordinary costs sometimes posted to the balance sheet.
The list is endless.
Ok I see where you are coming from. A lot of what you describe can be handled by templates which have been setup by an expert and are task orientated rather than asking for a list of nominal codes to debit and credit. The only thing the end user needs to enter are the amounts. There are obviously exceptions where you do need someone who knows book keeping but these can be kept to a minimum. I certainly wouldnt expect to see journals on a daily basis in a small comapny.
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