Thinking of going freelance in IT...

[Z064life]

I have graduated from university and right now I do freelance work for my mate as it is easy money and it's great for me to get experience in programming, web dev, etc. P.S. this thread is suitable for the computing or business section. If the mods on here want to move the thread, then be my guest. It's down to your discretion, I don't mind either way.

One of the problems I have is that the process of development can be slow. For example, I've made a CRM app using .NET and I'll be charging a few hundred pounds for what is simply just a database-driven app which took a few hours to produce (could have been quicker but inexperience meant it would take a bit of time). The client I am working with is a bit slow to check the prototype and email me back with feedback. What is even more annoying is that the client says this has to be implemented very quickly, and then I don't hear back from them for ages. Fair enough, they are busy being the sole person to run a small shop. Some clients like this are on my msn and say they will check their email for my message, but don't. Thus the stage for me to get paid can take a lot longer than usual. Does anyone here have this problem? How do you deal with this?

Often I have to make web apps (which I enjoy doing). These include ecommerce systems, intranets, corporate portals with CM systems, but because I am working with small businesses and the client doesn't understand or would care about the technical effort required, I can only get away with charging 2k for dynamic web apps built in ASP.NET. This feels like I am undercharging, as some of these web applications are extremely complicated. How do IT freelancers on here cope with this problem? Can it be solved with good marketing or a good client base? I want to do contract work too so I can put companies like Nike or Toyota on my CV.

How do freelancers on here cope with planning for a pension. Furthermore, does working freelance make it harder to have a mortgage, take out a loan, or carry out a major purchase such as buying a new car?

Thanks

[slapmatt]

If you're only just out of uni I'd suggest getting a job doing development with a decent sized software house/Web design company. That way you'll gain much needed experience and you should be able to get some decent names on your CV. Otherwise, I fear that you'll always be stuck with a "small-fry label" and as you described yourself, you'll be doing quite large projects for small amounts.

The real money (IMHO) is to be made doing contract work, especially in .NET (you are using c#, aren't you?) and in London.

[dern]

Z064life said:

Often I have to make web apps (which I enjoy doing). These include ecommerce systems, intranets, corporate portals with CM systems, but because I am working with small businesses and the client doesn't understand or would care about the technical effort required, I can only get away with charging 2k for dynamic web apps built in ASP.NET. This feels like I am undercharging, as some of these web applications are extremely complicated. How do IT freelancers on here cope with this problem? Can it be solved with good marketing or a good client base? I want to do contract work too so I can put companies like Nike or Toyota on my CV.

How do freelancers on here cope with planning for a pension. Furthermore, does working freelance make it harder to have a mortgage, take out a loan, or carry out a major purchase such as buying a new car?

I get round the above problems by not doing bespoke work for non IT savvy people. They see MSoft Office for sale in the shops for £100 quid and think that either that's what software costs. I almost did a bit of work for my father in law for his business but it quickly became apparent that the process of finding out what he actually wanted it to do was going to take some time. After that you'd be in to prototypes and so on. Given that at the time I was charging £500 a day for my time (happy days) it just wasn't worth it for either of us. The other difficulty is that he was then able to find someone who would do the work for a few hundred quid. Now in my opinon (and this is the only thing I'd take issue with you on) no piece of software beyond the trivial utility can be done properly in a few hours or days. You cannot build in reliability in to it in that time and knocking out apps rapidly without this bomb-proof reliability will be making a rod for your own back in the future.

You say you want to go contracting... have you just graduated? There may be the odd contract position for a new grad but not many. If you want to do that then get yourself in a big company like IBM for a few years and learn the ropes. As a new grad you may know the tech but you'll need to know the business processes.

I contract for largish companies on a day rate and it's reliable if not spectacular income. In my spare time I'm writing a piece of software aimed at small business owners like the ones you work for. However, it isn't a bespoke thing but a shrink wrapped package to sell to them as a developed piece of software. Firstly I will be able to sell that to them at a price that won't cause them heart failure (hundred of pounds at most although I'm thinking of giving it away and then charging for extra features) and secondly you're not limiting your income to the amount of code you write because you're reselling the same piece of software. I've no idea if it'll work but I think it will and you have to try these things.

Good luck.

Mark

[rich1231]

Z064life said:

I have graduated from university and right now I do freelance work for my mate as it is easy money and it's great for me to get experience in programming, web dev, etc. P.S. this thread is suitable for the computing or business section. If the mods on here want to move the thread, then be my guest. It's down to your discretion, I don't mind either way.

One of the problems I have is that the process of development can be slow. For example, I've made a CRM app using .NET and I'll be charging a few hundred pounds for what is simply just a database-driven app which took a few hours to produce (could have been quicker but inexperience meant it would take a bit of time). The client I am working with is a bit slow to check the prototype and email me back with feedback. What is even more annoying is that the client says this has to be implemented very quickly, and then I don't hear back from them for ages. Fair enough, they are busy being the sole person to run a small shop. Some clients like this are on my msn and say they will check their email for my message, but don't. Thus the stage for me to get paid can take a lot longer than usual. Does anyone here have this problem? How do you deal with this?

Often I have to make web apps (which I enjoy doing). These include ecommerce systems, intranets, corporate portals with CM systems, but because I am working with small businesses and the client doesn't understand or would care about the technical effort required, I can only get away with charging 2k for dynamic web apps built in ASP.NET. This feels like I am undercharging, as some of these web applications are extremely complicated. How do IT freelancers on here cope with this problem? Can it be solved with good marketing or a good client base? I want to do contract work too so I can put companies like Nike or Toyota on my CV.

How do freelancers on here cope with planning for a pension. Furthermore, does working freelance make it harder to have a mortgage, take out a loan, or carry out a major purchase such as buying a new car?

Thanks

Please take this in the happy and positive way it is intended.

To be any good at developing business related apps, you need to work close to the business and have a good understanding of what they are trying to do.

Its easy to have developed a few apps etc, but Uni and a few one offs dont a great career make.

You need depth of experience to go contracting in the London market and get a decent rate.

I'd look for a good permy role first if i were you, you will be stunned at the the things you dont know you dont know.

[Z064life]

I graduated with a 2.1. I use vb.net.

I usually work closely with the business, as I spend an entire day down there.

I agree that getting a permanant job is the best option, and I am looking around and applying right now but if I don't get anything I don't want to do an Msc. Instead I want to make money so I can support a car etc and the only way would be to work freelance (contract work can come later with experience). I have the contacts required and constantly make new contacts. If I apply for graduate positions in the 2007/8 cycle, I have to wait a year (next summer) to start working. What will I do in the mean time? I'm not going to tide myself over with an unskilled job like being a checkout operator.

Working only for people who are savvy in IT is a good idea, but this will mean they will know about the effort required for what they want and you can't charge extra etc.

This work tempts me as I'd be making solutions all on my own and that's where the real sense of achievement is. Furthermore, as a freelancer, I'd be doing all types of work (db design, web design, programming, etc) rather than just one discipline in a full time job. I fear this would mean my other skills would detoriate.

Edited by Z064life on Thursday 26th July 12:32

[Z064life]

I graduated with a 2.1. I use vb.net.

I usually work closely with the business, as I spend an entire day down there.

I agree that getting a permanant job is the best option, and I am looking around and applying right now but if I don't get anything I don't want to do an Msc. Instead I want to make money so I can support a car etc and the only way would be to work freelance (contract work can come later with experience). I have the contacts required and constantly make new contacts. If I apply for graduate positions in the 2007/8 cycle, I have to wait a year (next summer) to start working. What will I do in the mean time? I'm not going to tide myself over with an unskilled job like being a checkout operator.

Working only for people who are savvy in IT is a good idea, but this will mean they will know about the effort required for what they want and you can't charge extra etc.

This work tempts me as I'd be making solutions all on my own and that's where the real sense of achievement is. Furthermore, as a freelancer, I'd be doing all types of work (db design, web design, programming, etc) rather than just one discipline in a full time job. I fear this would mean my other skills would detoriate. The oppurtunity to say on my CV that I, and only I, built an intranet, ecommerce system, corporate portal with CMS (all things I have in the pipeline) really appeals to me.

Edited by Z064life on Thursday 26th July 12:33

Edited by Z064life on Thursday 26th July 12:33

[bigandclever]

What's your profile name on freelancers.net?

[Plotloss]

Z064life said:

The oppurtunity to say on my CV that I, and only I, built an intranet, ecommerce system, corporate portal with CMS (all things I have in the pipeline) really appeals to me.

Again, like Rich, this is meant in a positive way.

It may well appeal to you but from an employers perspective, even as a contractor, it doesn't display any hiring signals.

Contractors need to be able to work with a team, they need to be able to devolve their (in theory) expert knowledge to permanent employees over their course of their contract.

They key with commercial IT is not being able to design systems from a blank piece of paper, as in reality that opportunity rarely presents itself, its being able to do the job when the shit hits the fan and its experience that will allow you to do that. That's why clients look for real world experience in contractors and demonstrable experience of being able to deliver under pressure. Book learning means very little in reality.

[rich1231]

Z064life said:

I graduated with a 2.1. I use vb.net.

I usually work closely with the business, as I spend an entire day down there.

I agree that getting a permanant job is the best option, and I am looking around and applying right now but if I don't get anything I don't want to do an Msc. Instead I want to make money so I can support a car etc and the only way would be to work freelance (contract work can come later with experience). I have the contacts required and constantly make new contacts. If I apply for graduate positions in the 2007/8 cycle, I have to wait a year (next summer) to start working. What will I do in the mean time? I'm not going to tide myself over with an unskilled job like being a checkout operator.

Working only for people who are savvy in IT is a good idea, but this will mean they will know about the effort required for what they want and you can't charge extra etc.

This work tempts me as I'd be making solutions all on my own and that's where the real sense of achievement is. Furthermore, as a freelancer, I'd be doing all types of work (db design, web design, programming, etc) rather than just one discipline in a full time job. I fear this would mean my other skills would detoriate.

Edited by Z064life on Thursday 26th July 12:32

Sorry.. you seem to be asking a question for which 1 you dont want an answer and 2.. why are you asking about long term cinsiderations if you are only doing it to tide you over until you get a "proper job"

I am telling you as someone that interviews IT people often, that fresh out of uni developers would not get an interview, nor would I allow them to tender for work. Technically you are unlikely to be rounded, and spending a day with business is not what I meant before. It's very easy to capture requirements incorrectly.

You need some proper commercial experience behind you to consider "contracting" as a profession. But if you just want some cash to tide you over then carry on as you are for a few months.

[Z064life]

rich1231 said:

Z064life said:

I graduated with a 2.1. I use vb.net.

I usually work closely with the business, as I spend an entire day down there.

I agree that getting a permanant job is the best option, and I am looking around and applying right now but if I don't get anything I don't want to do an Msc. Instead I want to make money so I can support a car etc and the only way would be to work freelance (contract work can come later with experience). I have the contacts required and constantly make new contacts. If I apply for graduate positions in the 2007/8 cycle, I have to wait a year (next summer) to start working. What will I do in the mean time? I'm not going to tide myself over with an unskilled job like being a checkout operator.

Working only for people who are savvy in IT is a good idea, but this will mean they will know about the effort required for what they want and you can't charge extra etc.

This work tempts me as I'd be making solutions all on my own and that's where the real sense of achievement is. Furthermore, as a freelancer, I'd be doing all types of work (db design, web design, programming, etc) rather than just one discipline in a full time job. I fear this would mean my other skills would detoriate.

Edited by Z064life on Thursday 26th July 12:32

Sorry.. you seem to be asking a question for which 1 you dont want an answer and 2.. why are you asking about long term cinsiderations if you are only doing it to tide you over until you get a "proper job"

I am telling you as someone that interviews IT people often, that fresh out of uni developers would not get an interview, nor would I allow them to tender for work. Technically you are unlikely to be rounded, and spending a day with business is not what I meant before. It's very easy to capture requirements incorrectly.

You need some proper commercial experience behind you to consider "contracting" as a profession. But if you just want some cash to tide you over then carry on as you are for a few months.

The above seems fair enough. Capturing requirements is easy for a simple system, but doing so for a large system only happens in a large company, which I would have to work for.

You say that a fresh out of uni developer is unlikely to be rounded technically, and I agree, as many of my friends are not. That's why working freelance appeals to me. My dad works in IT and only really knows programming, a bit of Unix, and database design. I know all of that and web design, web development, graphics design, etc. I feel that if I get a permenant job it would be unlikely I use all of these disciplines so my skillset will not be managed well. The freelance work I have already done and am doing has called on all of these disciplines. And of course, my problem solving skills and so forth have been brought into play.

As for reading books, I agree they only help to a point. I've read many books but experience is much better, hence why I have done self-initiated projects.

I agree working freelance kills the social aspect and working in teams, unless you hire someone to do part of a project.

The contractor thing was just something that I said without much thought, really. Bit of an afterthought. I'm looking to work freelance as it's unlikely I'm going to get a job now (partly because I have a lot of work on as well). Also, now is the best time for me as my mate needs several web apps.

Most systems I have made have not been a smooth process when dealing with the client or on the technical side. I have plenty of stories there so I can handle problems and put that in my C.V. In fact, it's harder for me as I have nobody to refer to as I would perhaps have if I was in a team.

To the other member: I'm not a member of freelancers.net.

Edited by Z064life on Thursday 26th July 15:30

[rich1231]

Z064life said:

rich1231 said:

Z064life said:

I graduated with a 2.1. I use vb.net.

I usually work closely with the business, as I spend an entire day down there.

I agree that getting a permanant job is the best option, and I am looking around and applying right now but if I don't get anything I don't want to do an Msc. Instead I want to make money so I can support a car etc and the only way would be to work freelance (contract work can come later with experience). I have the contacts required and constantly make new contacts. If I apply for graduate positions in the 2007/8 cycle, I have to wait a year (next summer) to start working. What will I do in the mean time? I'm not going to tide myself over with an unskilled job like being a checkout operator.

Working only for people who are savvy in IT is a good idea, but this will mean they will know about the effort required for what they want and you can't charge extra etc.

This work tempts me as I'd be making solutions all on my own and that's where the real sense of achievement is. Furthermore, as a freelancer, I'd be doing all types of work (db design, web design, programming, etc) rather than just one discipline in a full time job. I fear this would mean my other skills would detoriate.

Edited by Z064life on Thursday 26th July 12:32

Sorry.. you seem to be asking a question for which 1 you dont want an answer and 2.. why are you asking about long term cinsiderations if you are only doing it to tide you over until you get a "proper job"

I am telling you as someone that interviews IT people often, that fresh out of uni developers would not get an interview, nor would I allow them to tender for work. Technically you are unlikely to be rounded, and spending a day with business is not what I meant before. It's very easy to capture requirements incorrectly.

You need some proper commercial experience behind you to consider "contracting" as a profession. But if you just want some cash to tide you over then carry on as you are for a few months.

The above seems fair enough. Capturing requirements is easy for a simple system, but doing so for a large system only happens in a large company, which I would have to work for.

You say that a fresh out of uni developer is unlikely to be rounded technically, and I agree, as many of my friends are not. That's why working freelance appeals to me. My dad works in IT and only really knows programming, a bit of Unix, and database design. I know all of that and web design, web development, graphics design, etc. I feel that if I get a permenant job it would be unlikely I use all of these disciplines so my skillset will not be managed well. The freelance work I have already done and am doing has called on all of these disciplines. And of course, my problem solving skills and so forth have been brought into play.

As for reading books, I agree they only help to a point. I've read many books but experience is much better, hence why I have done self-initiated projects.

I agree working freelance kills the social aspect and working in teams, unless you hire someone to do part of a project.

The contractor thing was just something that I said without much thought, really. Bit of an afterthought. I'm looking to work freelance as it's unlikely I'm going to get a job now (partly because I have a lot of work on as well). Also, now is the best time for me as my mate needs several web apps.

Most systems I have made have not been a smooth process when dealing with the client or on the technical side. I have plenty of stories there so I can handle problems and put that in my C.V. In fact, it's harder for me as I have nobody to refer to as I would perhaps have if I was in a team.

To the other member: I'm not a member of freelancers.net.

Edited by Z064life on Thursday 26th July 15:30

You are twincam arnt you!


I started out offering advice... but you didnt listen..

Requirements capture is neither simple or easy.. there are some that make careers out of it as in many respects its the most important part of any project.

Care to expand on the work you have done..

Lets start with CMS system... even the free ones have large communities building them.. can I assume that you are suggesting that you have installed one and configured it.. or developed a complete CMS system from scratch.

You have not worked in an industry and seen medium and large projects or i imagine had to develop to others specs or standards. This is why Im sure the work you are doing is the best ever... that you lack depth.. and im saying this again.. you dont know what you dont know. Read that a few times until it sinks in.

You think you use your entire skillset.. but how much credence do you think any serious client will place in your skills when you have only worked on a few bits and pieces.. alone and lacking process and depth.

[dilbert]

Mr 06,

Don't listen to him. He's just trying to kick you in the boocks. The thing is that IT is like that at the moment. If I were you, I'd keep a low profile, and save your energies, for those times that you need them.

I have no doubt that you can whip their butts if you want to, but you gotta wait until they are vulnerable, otherwise they'll just whip yours.

[JonRB]

rich1231 said:

This is why Im sure the work you are doing is the best ever... that you lack depth.. and im saying this again.. you dont know what you dont know. Read that a few times until it sinks in.

Indeed. Old proverb - "the fool thinks he knows everything, whilst the wise man knows that he knows little".

I've been a professional Software Developer for over 14 years now and even I come across stuff I haven't seen before.

Funnily enough, I was just discussing my first project with a colleague today and almost cringing when I recounted some of the designs and solutions I came up with due to inexperience and how I would have come up with a totally different and vastly superior design these days.

The fact of the matter is that in this industry experience counts more than qualifications, although the latter are a useful stepping stone for gaining the former.

[rich1231]

dilbert said:

Mr 06,

Don't listen to him. He's just trying to kick you in the boocks. The thing is that IT is like that at the moment. If I were you, I'd keep a low profile, and save your energies, for those times that you need them.

I have no doubt that you can whip their butts if you want to, but you gotta wait until they are vulnerable, otherwise they'll just whip yours.

WTF are you whittering on about?

[dilbert]

rich1231 said:

dilbert said:

Mr 06,

Don't listen to him. He's just trying to kick you in the boocks. The thing is that IT is like that at the moment. If I were you, I'd keep a low profile, and save your energies, for those times that you need them.

I have no doubt that you can whip their butts if you want to, but you gotta wait until they are vulnerable, otherwise they'll just whip yours.

WTF are you whittering on about?

[bga]

JonRB said:

The fact of the matter is that in this industry experience counts more than qualifications, although the latter are a useful stepping stone for gaining the former.

I couldn't agree more. I get the CV's of certified SAP bods sent to me all the time but would I pick one over someone with experience but no cert? Not a chance. If it came down to two similar candidates, there are numerous other factors that I take into consideration before the quals.

Z064life - these guys speak sense. I don't know about anyone else but I've seen numerous situations where someone with tech skills but still a bit green has got themselves & projects into a whole world of pain. Not a problem if you have people mentoring or guiding you, but IMO if you are going freelance/contracting then you are expected not to need that stuff as you would have already done a lot of your learning at the expense of others......

[JonRB]

bga said:

Z064life - these guys speak sense. I don't know about anyone else but I've seen numerous situations where someone with tech skills but still a bit green has got themselves & projects into a whole world of pain. Not a problem if you have people mentoring or guiding you, but IMO if you are going freelance/contracting then you are expected not to need that stuff as you would have already done a lot of your learning at the expense of others......

Indeed.

Z064life - please take all these comments in the positive way they are intended. Nobody is trying to put you down here, just give you the benefit of experience.

(Not that youth ever listens to experience, of course. )

[dern]

JonRB said:

Funnily enough, I was just discussing my first project with a colleague today and almost cringing when I recounted some of the designs and solutions I came up with due to inexperience and how I would have come up with a totally different and vastly superior design these days.

The one unchanging thing about IT (specifically development) is that people are shit at it when they start out despite thinking they're superb at it.

Edited by dern on Thursday 26th July 22:01

[Z064life]

Gotta agree with everything here...

Inexperience is something that plagues me in so many areas of my life, like in driving. That's why I'm so keen to read books (the least helpful resource I feel), talk to fellow industry professionals about the latest in web development, programming, etc, and most importantly, why I am keen to even do small projects for free - because of the experience factor. I always keep myself busy by also working on my own self-initiated projects.

If I don't get a perm job for a September/October start, then I could do an MSc but my BSc degree has given me more knowledge then experience. Most of what I have made in my degree, apart from my dissertation ecommerce system, cannot be put down on my cv because it was such basic work designed in home software like Access. We learnt a lot of complex theory I feel, but the systems we made did not warrant this theory. At uni level I would expect to be using Oracle (I took the initiative and used this instead of Access though). Uni itself says the experience comes from the employment, logically leaving the labs for strictly theory. Doing a large project with one supervisor is not real experience as your supervisor would not necessarily know about your chosen topic, as in the case of my dissertation.

[edc]

I think you are going to miss the boat for acceptance onto a decent Msc course for a start this Sept.