In the middle of a major ecommerce legal dilemma
Discussion
I was developing an ecommerce site for a local small business, and the site has gone live (url not disclosed), and it got a visit from someone in the USA.
Problem is, he placed an order of 80 items (£10 each), and I had added these products for testing purposes but out of naivety I didn't set prices for everything.
The customer took screen prints and is now threatening legal action if he doesn't get what he wants at the set prices. Is there a way out of this where we all get what we want? The best solution I have is for him to get his order, I implement the system for free as I am responsible for the problem, then I get experience, the client gets his system for free as I've incurred him costs, the customer gets his order, and there is no fuss or legal problems.
Out of further naivety, yet having done enough reading etc, I didn't write any disclaimers etc. I didn't sign a contract with this client as I'm still yet to get the templates.
Is there perhaps a better solution? I'm reading about internet law since developing this system but guess I haven't read enough.
Problem is, he placed an order of 80 items (£10 each), and I had added these products for testing purposes but out of naivety I didn't set prices for everything.
The customer took screen prints and is now threatening legal action if he doesn't get what he wants at the set prices. Is there a way out of this where we all get what we want? The best solution I have is for him to get his order, I implement the system for free as I am responsible for the problem, then I get experience, the client gets his system for free as I've incurred him costs, the customer gets his order, and there is no fuss or legal problems.
Out of further naivety, yet having done enough reading etc, I didn't write any disclaimers etc. I didn't sign a contract with this client as I'm still yet to get the templates.
Is there perhaps a better solution? I'm reading about internet law since developing this system but guess I haven't read enough.
The person who placed the order is unrelated to you or your customer? Your customer has accepted the site and agreed that it should go 'live'?
I'm no lawyer, but surely by analogy with a normal shop the web site is making an invitation to trade, and his order is an offer to purchase which you can either accept or reject (or negotiate, if you feel like it). The customer has absolutely no way to force you to accept his offer. Even if you did (if your web site sent back some reply saying his order had been accepted, rather than just saying it had been received) I believe that you would still have grounds to decline the trade on the grounds of errors/omissions.
But if you *did* automatically say the order had been accepted, then that was probably a bad move. Assuming from your description you created the web site for somebody else's company. Presumably you had a contract to do this, it is their responsibility to make sure that the site meets their requirements before accepting it, this includes all the legal aspects such as terms of sale as well as pricing etc.
I'm no lawyer, but surely by analogy with a normal shop the web site is making an invitation to trade, and his order is an offer to purchase which you can either accept or reject (or negotiate, if you feel like it). The customer has absolutely no way to force you to accept his offer. Even if you did (if your web site sent back some reply saying his order had been accepted, rather than just saying it had been received) I believe that you would still have grounds to decline the trade on the grounds of errors/omissions.
But if you *did* automatically say the order had been accepted, then that was probably a bad move. Assuming from your description you created the web site for somebody else's company. Presumably you had a contract to do this, it is their responsibility to make sure that the site meets their requirements before accepting it, this includes all the legal aspects such as terms of sale as well as pricing etc.
GreenV8S said:
The person who placed the order is unrelated to you or your customer? Your customer has accepted the site and agreed that it should go 'live'?
I'm no lawyer, but surely by analogy with a normal shop the web site is making an invitation to trade, and his order is an offer to purchase which you can either accept or reject (or negotiate, if you feel like it). The customer has absolutely no way to force you to accept his offer. Even if you did (if your web site sent back some reply saying his order had been accepted, rather than just saying it had been received) I believe that you would still have grounds to decline the trade on the grounds of errors/omissions.
But if you *did* automatically say the order had been accepted, then that was probably a bad move. Assuming from your description you created the web site for somebody else's company. Presumably you had a contract to do this, it is their responsibility to make sure that the site meets their requirements before accepting it, this includes all the legal aspects such as terms of sale as well as pricing etc.
I missed out a few important details.I'm no lawyer, but surely by analogy with a normal shop the web site is making an invitation to trade, and his order is an offer to purchase which you can either accept or reject (or negotiate, if you feel like it). The customer has absolutely no way to force you to accept his offer. Even if you did (if your web site sent back some reply saying his order had been accepted, rather than just saying it had been received) I believe that you would still have grounds to decline the trade on the grounds of errors/omissions.
But if you *did* automatically say the order had been accepted, then that was probably a bad move. Assuming from your description you created the web site for somebody else's company. Presumably you had a contract to do this, it is their responsibility to make sure that the site meets their requirements before accepting it, this includes all the legal aspects such as terms of sale as well as pricing etc.
The order system is not functional as the client has to sign up to Paypal and then the details go into the system for the orders to work. There is therefore no contact between the client and customer (except the customer got the client's number). I checked if I recieved any orders, and there are none (obviously).
My client said to the customer via phone "we'll ship your order if you tell us your address as the order didn't come through" (see above point). He said something like this when he was trying to get to grips with the situation as he got a phone call from the customer. A verbal contract is not legally binding, I learnt when I studied law at uni (business and management).
There is no contract. The website is for someone else's company. Yea the client wanted the site to go live. The customer is unrelated to me and the client (great thing about net).
Contract = Offer, Acceptance, and Consideration (money).
In this case, the Offer comes from the person wanting to buy the items. The offer is at a price that is not accepted by the "seller", so a legally binding contract has not been made.
The "buyer" is just being a silly tit. They will get nowhere if they try to take things further. That is my formal legal advice!
In this case, the Offer comes from the person wanting to buy the items. The offer is at a price that is not accepted by the "seller", so a legally binding contract has not been made.
The "buyer" is just being a silly tit. They will get nowhere if they try to take things further. That is my formal legal advice!
There have been a few cases of large online retailers (Dabs and Argos spring immediately to mind) who have made pricing mistakes on expensive items. They usually find a way out of it.
How much more than £10 do these items normally cost? Would any reasonable person believe that they could be purchased for £10?
I think you can happily tell the customer to go away without any legal ramifications.
How much more than £10 do these items normally cost? Would any reasonable person believe that they could be purchased for £10?
I think you can happily tell the customer to go away without any legal ramifications.
GreenV8S said:
The customer has absolutely no way to force you to accept his offer.
"Out of stock " is all you have to say , and dont most sites or even email offers have disclaimers EAOE for example, Errors and Omissions Excluded ?? We have this every day , send out offers and by the time the lazy purchaser gets around to ordering the item is sold out
trunnie said:
You may want to ask for your money back from the University, a verbal contract can be legally binding, it is just that bit more difficult to prove evidentially. There are exceptions such as the sale of land however where writing is required.
Who is this directed to?A verbal contract CAN be legally binding, but a verbal cointract hasn't been agreed to to in the OP's post, so that's irrelevant.
And what does land have to do with the OP's post?
As already covered, it's simply an offer etc... and even if you have autoresponded with thanks for your order I wouldn't fret too much.
The contract doens't exist until you've accepted payment - i.e. taken the money.
Ask Amazon - thats exactly what they said to me when I ordered 150 iPaqs at £7.50 when they made a pricing error a few years back. Even though they sent me an email confirming the order and confirming that a contract did exist.
Ultimately, your client signed off the site so they should have done their own testing and checks - it's a bit like my accountant, he does my accounts, but it's my signature at the bottom and my responsibility if he's made a mistake.
Apologise, reassure your customer this guy is just chancing his hand and move on.
Cheers,
JC
The contract doens't exist until you've accepted payment - i.e. taken the money.
Ask Amazon - thats exactly what they said to me when I ordered 150 iPaqs at £7.50 when they made a pricing error a few years back. Even though they sent me an email confirming the order and confirming that a contract did exist.
Ultimately, your client signed off the site so they should have done their own testing and checks - it's a bit like my accountant, he does my accounts, but it's my signature at the bottom and my responsibility if he's made a mistake.
Apologise, reassure your customer this guy is just chancing his hand and move on.
Cheers,
JC
The OP posted twice. The second referred to a verbal contract not being binding from a uni. course in business. Oh and also the idea put forward that no contract exists until a payment is made is also wrong.
If you want a (slightly dated) view of the law then have a look at www.venables.co.uk/n0203mistakes.htm
The answer will rather depend on what is the exact nature of the contract between your website customer and his US customer and in turn your contract with the website customer.
If you want a (slightly dated) view of the law then have a look at www.venables.co.uk/n0203mistakes.htm
The answer will rather depend on what is the exact nature of the contract between your website customer and his US customer and in turn your contract with the website customer.
Edited by trunnie on Wednesday 29th August 11:02
trunnie said:
The OP posted twice. The second referred to a verbal contract not being binding from a uni. course in business. Oh and also the idea put forward that no contract exists until a payment is made is also wrong.
If you want a (slightly dated) view of the law then have a look at www.venables.co.uk/n0203mistakes.htm
The answer will rather depend on what is the exact nature of the contract between your website customer and his US customer and in turn your contract with the website customer.
My apologies, they did indeed make a verbal statement in the second post. I'm sorry for the confusion,a nd the mistake!If you want a (slightly dated) view of the law then have a look at www.venables.co.uk/n0203mistakes.htm
The answer will rather depend on what is the exact nature of the contract between your website customer and his US customer and in turn your contract with the website customer.
Edited by trunnie on Wednesday 29th August 11:02
Z064life said:
A verbal contract is not legally binding, I learnt when I studied law at uni (business and management).
Yes it is...just harder to prove it exists.Cannot have a verbal contract for property / land though IIRC.
Depends what the T+Cs are for the site as to whether their has been an acceptance of the offer of payment. Also, if it can be shown to be an error, then there's no requirement (I think) to fulfil the order at that price. See Woolworths and their £50 LCD TV's a couple of months back
I am sure it's not enforceable. First of all, I don't think the same laws apply when buying outside the EU (correct me if I'm wrong?)
You cannot assume an internet trader is based in the UK simply because the web address has ".co.uk" in it. Although EU countries have similar legislation to the UK the law is very different in the USA. Generally, you will find it difficult to solve consumer problems outside the EU so it's not a good idea to buy computer equipment from traders based on the other side of the globe.
Source: http://money.guardian.co.uk/experts/legal/story/0,...
Hope this helps.
Also it is advisable that before you put ANYTHING live for a customer, you get a written agreement that the customer is happy and has checked everything.
Another thing we include on ecommerce shops, in the email sent to the customer automatically after purchase is:
This email is conformation that we have received your order. It does not constitude contractual acceptance of the order you have placed. We are currently checking that the price remains available at the price(s) advertising on yourwebsite.co.uk website when you placed your order. If the price or availability has changed we will contact you by telephone or email within one business working day on receipt of this email.
This usually gets you out of trouble. Also make sure you set credit card authorisation to "pre-auth" rather than taking the monies, as I believe (again correct me if I am wrong) you cannot accept money for a product you do not have in stock.
Therefore, if it's pre-auth, and you havent accepted the money, no contract.
You'll be fine, the guys trying it on and being an w****r.
You cannot assume an internet trader is based in the UK simply because the web address has ".co.uk" in it. Although EU countries have similar legislation to the UK the law is very different in the USA. Generally, you will find it difficult to solve consumer problems outside the EU so it's not a good idea to buy computer equipment from traders based on the other side of the globe.
Source: http://money.guardian.co.uk/experts/legal/story/0,...
Hope this helps.
Also it is advisable that before you put ANYTHING live for a customer, you get a written agreement that the customer is happy and has checked everything.
Another thing we include on ecommerce shops, in the email sent to the customer automatically after purchase is:
This email is conformation that we have received your order. It does not constitude contractual acceptance of the order you have placed. We are currently checking that the price remains available at the price(s) advertising on yourwebsite.co.uk website when you placed your order. If the price or availability has changed we will contact you by telephone or email within one business working day on receipt of this email.
This usually gets you out of trouble. Also make sure you set credit card authorisation to "pre-auth" rather than taking the monies, as I believe (again correct me if I am wrong) you cannot accept money for a product you do not have in stock.
Therefore, if it's pre-auth, and you havent accepted the money, no contract.
You'll be fine, the guys trying it on and being an w****r.
Edited by stuartbuckell on Wednesday 29th August 17:29
PetrolTed said:
davidd said:
Tell him to sod off, you have not taken any money, he is in the usa what is he going to do ?
Correct.Which the technical side of contract law can be discussed, as it does seem that without further information that this particular case is a grey area.
A reasonable customer who has not yet paid for the goods should understand that there has been a mistake made - however the reason why they desperately want to continue with the order is that they believe they are getting something they really should not be entitled to.
I wonder what the buyers attitude would be if tomorrow the website goes up for real and the actual price per item is £5 each instead of the £10 he paid... I am quite sure in that situation he would fully expect the mistaken order to be cancelled!!!
My advice would be to try to keep the customer, even if it means doing the order at cost price, but not to pander to his demands at all costs, as the practical issue is that I believe the law is on your side, and despite his threats, in actuality they are empty.
Edited by JustinP1 on Wednesday 29th August 18:50
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