Job offer

[Mattt]

I've just been given an offer for a years time, and I have to accept by mid Sept - I assume there will be no issues with accepting, and then cancelling if something better comes along?

[tigger1]

How is that different from accepting a job starting next month, and then cancelling?

If they suffer a loss as a result of you not starting work, they could take action..but the likelihood is they wouldn't.

It'd be a bridge burned though, so probably just worth discussing your concerns with them. What is it that might change fo you to want to not work there?

[Mattt]

Because i've worked there before, i've been told things are different in this new region i'm going to. I also haven't even applied for any other jobs, so can't compare to other offers.

I've also considered a side step in career, and a lot can change in the year. It would be nice to have this as a backup if all else fails.

[stuartbuckell]

The question you want to be asking yourself is, why are they offering a job for a years time?

Secondly, how do you know the job will be there in a years time, if you're counting on it?

You might think you're trying to get out of it, but how do you know they aren't stringing you along?

[Mattt]

Sorry, didn't make it clear, it is a graduate position, and it is a year until I graduate. I worked for them on my industrial placement, and had a nightmare of a time, but told that it isn't the case everywhere - and colleagues have testified to this.

[JustinP1]

Mattt said:

Sorry, didn't make it clear, it is a graduate position, and it is a year until I graduate. I worked for them on my industrial placement, and had a nightmare of a time, but told that it isn't the case everywhere - and colleagues have testified to this.

If that is the case, then it should be your own experience as to whether that is the best way forward.

In either case, if you accept the job whether it is in a month or a years time then you are entering into a legally binding contract. That is should you decide to 'burn' them, they can seek damages in the same way you could should they decide to do the same to you!

My thoughts are although in effect they probably wont be sueing you - unless they are offering you some kind of sponsorship prior to employment, that I wouldnt string them along. If nothing else you will really be 'burning' a potential industy experience reference, which for a new graduate is the best thing going for you!

To get a job offer a year in advance is a great thing, and should take a lot of pressure off you later. I would take it. Should you dislike it whilst you are there you can take this up with them to see if things can change and if not you can always hand your notice in as a normal employee.

[Olf]

Sounds great. If you like the company then go for it. You can spend your final year reasonably confident that you have a job. Never forget though, if times get hard they'll drop you like a hot potato and if a better offer comes along before next September you shouldn't hesitate to do the same.

Numero Uno... and all that.

Edited by Olf on Wednesday 29th August 21:15

[che6mw]

I have heard of people at very senior levels getting in to legal bother when accepting jobs and then not taking them for whatever reason but I see there being no issues (except the moral one) for accepting a job offer and then in a year walking away from it. No company would force someone to work for them and it wouldn't be worth the hassle taking you to court or anything.

Only thing I would say is despite working in two global industries I've found the circle of people working in these sectors is much much smaller than you imagine. You could annoy people who you may end up bumping in to again and again.

[srebbe64]

Mattt said:

I've just been given an offer for a years time, and I have to accept by mid Sept - I assume there will be no issues with accepting, and then cancelling if something better comes along?

Let me turn this on its head Matt. How would you feel if they offered you the job, you accepted, because it was perfect for you, and then in a year they withdrew their offer because a better candidate showed up? That's the flip side to you accepting a job but later declining.

Legally, it's doubtful whether you'd get into any hot water but morally it's questionable in my view.

[Olf]

srebbe64 said:

Mattt said:

I've just been given an offer for a years time, and I have to accept by mid Sept - I assume there will be no issues with accepting, and then cancelling if something better comes along?

Let me turn this on its head Matt. How would you feel if they offered you the job, you accepted, because it was perfect for you, and then in a year they withdrew their offer because a better candidate showed up? That's the flip side to you accepting a job but later declining.

Legally, it's doubtful whether you'd get into any hot water but morally it's questionable in my view.

The scenario you painted happens all the time. If Matt sets out with every intention of taking up the job then IMO he's on the moral high ground. If he gets a better offer along the road great, take it.

[JustinP1]

Olf said:

srebbe64 said:

Mattt said:

I've just been given an offer for a years time, and I have to accept by mid Sept - I assume there will be no issues with accepting, and then cancelling if something better comes along?

Let me turn this on its head Matt. How would you feel if they offered you the job, you accepted, because it was perfect for you, and then in a year they withdrew their offer because a better candidate showed up? That's the flip side to you accepting a job but later declining.

Legally, it's doubtful whether you'd get into any hot water but morally it's questionable in my view.

The scenario you painted happens all the time. If Matt sets out with every intention of taking up the job then IMO he's on the moral high ground. If he gets a better offer along the road great, take it.

So if the company wants to invest in a graduate and Matt accepts, so the company stop looking for someone for the job and another graduate cannot benefit from the position and Matt decides to drop them if and when he wants he has the moral high ground!?

I don't think so.

Indeed if Matt were to do that he *could* be sued. In effect though they wont bother, and if they were really annoyed speak to the Graduate HR departments of other firms.

I would also contend that a company would not be able to do this to an employee either... not unless they want to give substantial damages. This will of course happen out of court, as the case is open and shut and would mean that the company would have to pay the legal costs too!

[Olf]

JustinP1 said:

Olf said:

srebbe64 said:

Mattt said:

I've just been given an offer for a years time, and I have to accept by mid Sept - I assume there will be no issues with accepting, and then cancelling if something better comes along?

Let me turn this on its head Matt. How would you feel if they offered you the job, you accepted, because it was perfect for you, and then in a year they withdrew their offer because a better candidate showed up? That's the flip side to you accepting a job but later declining.

Legally, it's doubtful whether you'd get into any hot water but morally it's questionable in my view.

The scenario you painted happens all the time. If Matt sets out with every intention of taking up the job then IMO he's on the moral high ground. If he gets a better offer along the road great, take it.

So if the company wants to invest in a graduate and Matt accepts, so the company stop looking for someone for the job and another graduate cannot benefit from the position and Matt decides to drop them if and when he wants he has the moral high ground!?

I don't think so.

Indeed if Matt were to do that he *could* be sued. In effect though they wont bother, and if they were really annoyed speak to the Graduate HR departments of other firms.

I would also contend that a company would not be able to do this to an employee either... not unless they want to give substantial damages. This will of course happen out of court, as the case is open and shut and would mean that the company would have to pay the legal costs too!

You're not really serious are you? I can't help wondering whether some of you guys have been exposed to the big bad world. A year is a long time in industry. I know plenty of companies who have withdrawn offers of employment. What damages do you expect that these would be by the way? Loss of earnings? Even with a written contract in place the protection for the prospective employee would be very very limited. As for substantial damages, well stop trying to scare the guy you're not actually helping with this moral conjecture and ill founded assumptions.

[sleep envy]

Matt - check the Ts & Cs of your contract as if you decide to change your mind you could be up the swanny

after today's events nothing, but nothing surprises me anymore in this industry

it's become a load of wank

[Mattt]

The situation is that I have worked with them for several years doing work experience, placements etc - however only doing one type of work. I don't like being pigeon holed, and at my stage of career, it is not great for the CV.

I have been promised other types of work, however have a suspicion that they may fall back on this.

My first while at the company is a weeks notice either way, so will go along, and hope they deliver. They are a good company on the whole, just in the past I worked for the worst bit.

[sleep envy]

Mattt - YHM in 5

[Mattt]

Back at you

[JustinP1]

Olf said:

JustinP1 said:

Olf said:

srebbe64 said:

Mattt said:

I've just been given an offer for a years time, and I have to accept by mid Sept - I assume there will be no issues with accepting, and then cancelling if something better comes along?

Let me turn this on its head Matt. How would you feel if they offered you the job, you accepted, because it was perfect for you, and then in a year they withdrew their offer because a better candidate showed up? That's the flip side to you accepting a job but later declining.

Legally, it's doubtful whether you'd get into any hot water but morally it's questionable in my view.

The scenario you painted happens all the time. If Matt sets out with every intention of taking up the job then IMO he's on the moral high ground. If he gets a better offer along the road great, take it.

So if the company wants to invest in a graduate and Matt accepts, so the company stop looking for someone for the job and another graduate cannot benefit from the position and Matt decides to drop them if and when he wants he has the moral high ground!?

I don't think so.

Indeed if Matt were to do that he *could* be sued. In effect though they wont bother, and if they were really annoyed speak to the Graduate HR departments of other firms.

I would also contend that a company would not be able to do this to an employee either... not unless they want to give substantial damages. This will of course happen out of court, as the case is open and shut and would mean that the company would have to pay the legal costs too!

You're not really serious are you? I can't help wondering whether some of you guys have been exposed to the big bad world. A year is a long time in industry. I know plenty of companies who have withdrawn offers of employment. What damages do you expect that these would be by the way? Loss of earnings? Even with a written contract in place the protection for the prospective employee would be very very limited. As for substantial damages, well stop trying to scare the guy you're not actually helping with this moral conjecture and ill founded assumptions.

My comments come from my degree level education in contract and employment law as well as personal knowledge and experience of its use as an employer.

I am certainly serious about all of the comments I have made and if you read my posts I think I have given a balanced overview of both sides of the legal perspective, and also the moral perspective. I then followed this up with a practical and legal solution to Matt's situation which I hope has helped.

It is in my legal opinon that Matt would certainly be in the wrong if he were to agree to the job, enter into a contract, and then drop it if suits him later on. It is also my moral opinion that this would be a bad idea, as I put forward the scenario of how he would be affected should it happen to him. I also gave the practical points that if he were to do this that although the chances of him being sued are slim, his actions may not do him any favours with regard to a valuable reference.

I stand by everything I have written, and believe I am qualified to give advice, and if needed could reel off the relevant employment and case law, however I am not writing this to score points, just help the OP.

I suggest that from:

"Even with a written contract in place the protection for the prospective employee would be very very limited.",

- you have no understanding of contract or employment law or its application.

and from:

"As for substantial damages, well stop trying to scare the guy you're not actually helping with this moral conjecture and ill founded assumptions."

- if you had read my post accurately you would have noted that I actually stated that if an employer were to let him down HE could claim 'substantial damages'. There is no scaremongering at all, I have given a balanced moral outlook, and as my post is written on both accuarate education and professional experience if you believe I have 'ill founded assumptions', although I will beg to differ, you are quite free to believe this. However if you want to post disputing what I have stated in such an attacking way, or add in comments such as-

"I can't help wondering whether some of you guys have been exposed to the big bad world.", I am afraid you may have been the one who has made a poor assumption, and it would help if your comments were also backed up with the facts or it may indeed be a hinderance to the OP who is if you remember the point of the thread in the first place!?

Edited by JustinP1 on Thursday 30th August 03:22

[Olf]

JustinP1 said:

Olf said:

JustinP1 said:

Olf said:

srebbe64 said:

Mattt said:

I've just been given an offer for a years time, and I have to accept by mid Sept - I assume there will be no issues with accepting, and then cancelling if something better comes along?

Let me turn this on its head Matt. How would you feel if they offered you the job, you accepted, because it was perfect for you, and then in a year they withdrew their offer because a better candidate showed up? That's the flip side to you accepting a job but later declining.

Legally, it's doubtful whether you'd get into any hot water but morally it's questionable in my view.

The scenario you painted happens all the time. If Matt sets out with every intention of taking up the job then IMO he's on the moral high ground. If he gets a better offer along the road great, take it.

So if the company wants to invest in a graduate and Matt accepts, so the company stop looking for someone for the job and another graduate cannot benefit from the position and Matt decides to drop them if and when he wants he has the moral high ground!?

I don't think so.

Indeed if Matt were to do that he *could* be sued. In effect though they wont bother, and if they were really annoyed speak to the Graduate HR departments of other firms.

I would also contend that a company would not be able to do this to an employee either... not unless they want to give substantial damages. This will of course happen out of court, as the case is open and shut and would mean that the company would have to pay the legal costs too!

You're not really serious are you? I can't help wondering whether some of you guys have been exposed to the big bad world. A year is a long time in industry. I know plenty of companies who have withdrawn offers of employment. What damages do you expect that these would be by the way? Loss of earnings? Even with a written contract in place the protection for the prospective employee would be very very limited. As for substantial damages, well stop trying to scare the guy you're not actually helping with this moral conjecture and ill founded assumptions.

My comments come from my degree level education in contract and employment law as well as personal knowledge and experience of its use as an employer.

I am certainly serious about all of the comments I have made and if you read my posts I think I have given a balanced overview of both sides of the legal perspective, and also the moral perspective. I then followed this up with a practical and legal solution to Matt's situation which I hope has helped.

It is in my legal opinon that Matt would certainly be in the wrong if he were to agree to the job, enter into a contract, and then drop it if suits him later on. It is also my moral opinion that this would be a bad idea, as I put forward the scenario of how he would be affected should it happen to him. I also gave the practical points that if he were to do this that although the chances of him being sued are slim, his actions may not do him any favours with regard to a valuable reference.

I stand by everything I have written, and believe I am qualified to give advice, and if needed could reel off the relevant employment and case law, however I am not writing this to score points, just help the OP.

I suggest that from:

"Even with a written contract in place the protection for the prospective employee would be very very limited.",

- you have no understanding of contract or employment law or its application.

and from:

"As for substantial damages, well stop trying to scare the guy you're not actually helping with this moral conjecture and ill founded assumptions."

- if you had read my post accurately you would have noted that I actually stated that if an employer were to let him down HE could claim 'substantial damages'. There is no scaremongering at all, I have given a balanced moral outlook, and as my post is written on both accuarate education and professional experience if you believe I have 'ill founded assumptions', although I will beg to differ, you are quite free to believe this. However if you want to post disputing what I have stated in such an attacking way, or add in comments such as-

"I can't help wondering whether some of you guys have been exposed to the big bad world.", I am afraid you may have been the one who has made a poor assumption, and it would help if your comments were also backed up with the facts or it may indeed be a hinderance to the OP who is if you remember the point of the thread in the first place!?

Edited by JustinP1 on Thursday 30th August 03:22

Not sure what you want from me in the way of facts as you haven't given facts, only experienced based opinion which is exactly what I'm offering.

I'm afraid I don't have the inclination to post a verbose response that will not sway your opinion of the situation.

Matt. Do what is right for you. The above talk of legal action, damages and compensation is not grounded in the reality of the situation. Employers shaft employees and employees shaft employers. If you do the right thing by yourself it is likely you'll be looking at 4-5 years in your first position and, unlikely as it is, any pent up bad feeling will be long long long forgotten by then. If you do have to let them down just phrase it sensibly, not 'I've got a better job elsewhere brag brag brag' but I'm sure you wouldn't do that anyway.

[JustinP1]

Olf said:

JustinP1 said:

Olf said:

JustinP1 said:

Olf said:

srebbe64 said:

Mattt said:

I've just been given an offer for a years time, and I have to accept by mid Sept - I assume there will be no issues with accepting, and then cancelling if something better comes along?

Let me turn this on its head Matt. How would you feel if they offered you the job, you accepted, because it was perfect for you, and then in a year they withdrew their offer because a better candidate showed up? That's the flip side to you accepting a job but later declining.

Legally, it's doubtful whether you'd get into any hot water but morally it's questionable in my view.

The scenario you painted happens all the time. If Matt sets out with every intention of taking up the job then IMO he's on the moral high ground. If he gets a better offer along the road great, take it.

So if the company wants to invest in a graduate and Matt accepts, so the company stop looking for someone for the job and another graduate cannot benefit from the position and Matt decides to drop them if and when he wants he has the moral high ground!?

I don't think so.

Indeed if Matt were to do that he *could* be sued. In effect though they wont bother, and if they were really annoyed speak to the Graduate HR departments of other firms.

I would also contend that a company would not be able to do this to an employee either... not unless they want to give substantial damages. This will of course happen out of court, as the case is open and shut and would mean that the company would have to pay the legal costs too!

You're not really serious are you? I can't help wondering whether some of you guys have been exposed to the big bad world. A year is a long time in industry. I know plenty of companies who have withdrawn offers of employment. What damages do you expect that these would be by the way? Loss of earnings? Even with a written contract in place the protection for the prospective employee would be very very limited. As for substantial damages, well stop trying to scare the guy you're not actually helping with this moral conjecture and ill founded assumptions.

My comments come from my degree level education in contract and employment law as well as personal knowledge and experience of its use as an employer.

I am certainly serious about all of the comments I have made and if you read my posts I think I have given a balanced overview of both sides of the legal perspective, and also the moral perspective. I then followed this up with a practical and legal solution to Matt's situation which I hope has helped.

It is in my legal opinon that Matt would certainly be in the wrong if he were to agree to the job, enter into a contract, and then drop it if suits him later on. It is also my moral opinion that this would be a bad idea, as I put forward the scenario of how he would be affected should it happen to him. I also gave the practical points that if he were to do this that although the chances of him being sued are slim, his actions may not do him any favours with regard to a valuable reference.

I stand by everything I have written, and believe I am qualified to give advice, and if needed could reel off the relevant employment and case law, however I am not writing this to score points, just help the OP.

I suggest that from:

"Even with a written contract in place the protection for the prospective employee would be very very limited.",

- you have no understanding of contract or employment law or its application.

and from:

"As for substantial damages, well stop trying to scare the guy you're not actually helping with this moral conjecture and ill founded assumptions."

- if you had read my post accurately you would have noted that I actually stated that if an employer were to let him down HE could claim 'substantial damages'. There is no scaremongering at all, I have given a balanced moral outlook, and as my post is written on both accuarate education and professional experience if you believe I have 'ill founded assumptions', although I will beg to differ, you are quite free to believe this. However if you want to post disputing what I have stated in such an attacking way, or add in comments such as-

"I can't help wondering whether some of you guys have been exposed to the big bad world.", I am afraid you may have been the one who has made a poor assumption, and it would help if your comments were also backed up with the facts or it may indeed be a hinderance to the OP who is if you remember the point of the thread in the first place!?

Edited by JustinP1 on Thursday 30th August 03:22

Not sure what you want from me in the way of facts as you haven't given facts, only experienced based opinion which is exactly what I'm offering.

I'm afraid I don't have the inclination to post a verbose response that will not sway your opinion of the situation.

Matt. Do what is right for you. The above talk of legal action, damages and compensation is not grounded in the reality of the situation. Employers shaft employees and employees shaft employers. If you do the right thing by yourself it is likely you'll be looking at 4-5 years in your first position and, unlikely as it is, any pent up bad feeling will be long long long forgotten by then. If you do have to let them down just phrase it sensibly, not 'I've got a better job elsewhere brag brag brag' but I'm sure you wouldn't do that anyway.

The facts I have given are ones which are familiar to most users of this forum, it is the basic principle of contract law.

It is one thing to state that it is moralistic to sign a contract and then not follow through for whatever reason, that is your own opinion. However, the fact is that it IS unlawful to do this. Even if you believe that the other side will not enforce the contract, then at least it is not moral, and could end up with you worse off in the end.

If your experience is that 'employers shaft employees and employees shaft employers' then that is unfortunate, however that does not make it lawful, or right. Indeed if it is the case that someone you know has an employment contract and was literally dropped by an employer then they would have instant cause to claim damages - however in practicality the huge majority of employers are savvy enough to know that this is such a clear cut and simple issue they wont!

The 'facts' I speak of are indeed basic areas of law. If you have any 'facts' such as ways indeed that this can be circumnavigated rather than your generalised opinion that the law is irrelevant or ignored then for the good of the OP I urge you to post them. Whilst I stand by the advice I have given with regard to the law is completely correct and will stand by if Matt were to come back to the thread in a years time, I am not sure that if you were to give advice which would leave him in a potentially unlawful and very sticky situation, that your advice would be much help then!

My personal advice is simple:

Don't sign a contract unless you want to be bound by the terms.

If you want to do otherwise then don't bury your head in the sand and do it with the knowledge that it may come back to affect you later.

Edited by JustinP1 on Thursday 30th August 14:15

[Olf]

Justin,

If a company wishes to dispense of an employees services within the first 2 years of service for reasons of non-performance, business pressures or any other legal reason, what rights does the employee have to seek compensation or fight the severance?

Edited by Olf on Thursday 30th August 14:21