Paypal and money laundering regs
Discussion
Generally speaking, if you take payment by credit card you will not be protected against charge-backs. Fraud works slightly differently to chargebacks in terms of the regs.
Charge backs can be made by the CC company without the customer who made the payment even knowing on occasion and it is not always obvious why a chargeback has been made or who actully requested it.
Charge backs can be made by the CC company without the customer who made the payment even knowing on occasion and it is not always obvious why a chargeback has been made or who actully requested it.
Latest - I used saynoto0870 to get me an 020 number and after about 10 minutes got through to someone called Kevin (who sounded like the Irish bloke that runs Ryanair).
So I reasoned with Kevin for another 10 minutes about the issue of demanding CC details as a PID, and he came out with the 'EU Directive' angle. I reminded him that a Directive is only a suggestion. 'Ah yes' he replied. 'So you just need PID?' I enquired? Yes, assured Kevin. I ran through several different options that normally work perfectly well as PIDs - passport, driving licence, utility bills etc. Why wouldn't they accept any of those? Why was the ONLY form of PID that they'd accept coincidentally a method to take money? Kevin was masterful - he ducked and dived and dodged every punch I threw. He understand my point, but...
I reminded him that they had my bank current account details already, for funding/sweeping purposes. My account is Premier and Verified as well. All of which seem like a pretty damn good PID to me. But no, Kevin wanted CC details.
Eventually he relented and gave me an option to 'upload document' on my account. This allows me to fax something to them as PID. But then it turned out what he wanted was my CC statement, which of course has my CC details on it
So I said NO< this is pointless, we're not gettting anywhere.
Kevin then gave me the e-mail address compliance@paypal.com to whom I could send my dispute. He said they'd reply in 48 hours.
Well that was Friday last week - no reply.
So I went back to the Paypal website to find an address so I can write a letter instead. No address. So I sent them an e-mail yesterday saying 'What is your postal address please?'. No reply yet.
Currently they are holding over £600 hostage, and demanding CC details to release it. That's blackmail in my book.
A final point... all this 'send us your CC details etc' is explained by 'money-laundering regulations'. Well I've driven a horse and cart through that - I opened another Paypal account using a different e-mail address. No problem at all.
So I reasoned with Kevin for another 10 minutes about the issue of demanding CC details as a PID, and he came out with the 'EU Directive' angle. I reminded him that a Directive is only a suggestion. 'Ah yes' he replied. 'So you just need PID?' I enquired? Yes, assured Kevin. I ran through several different options that normally work perfectly well as PIDs - passport, driving licence, utility bills etc. Why wouldn't they accept any of those? Why was the ONLY form of PID that they'd accept coincidentally a method to take money? Kevin was masterful - he ducked and dived and dodged every punch I threw. He understand my point, but...
I reminded him that they had my bank current account details already, for funding/sweeping purposes. My account is Premier and Verified as well. All of which seem like a pretty damn good PID to me. But no, Kevin wanted CC details.
Eventually he relented and gave me an option to 'upload document' on my account. This allows me to fax something to them as PID. But then it turned out what he wanted was my CC statement, which of course has my CC details on it
So I said NO< this is pointless, we're not gettting anywhere.Kevin then gave me the e-mail address compliance@paypal.com to whom I could send my dispute. He said they'd reply in 48 hours.
Well that was Friday last week - no reply.
So I went back to the Paypal website to find an address so I can write a letter instead. No address. So I sent them an e-mail yesterday saying 'What is your postal address please?'. No reply yet.
Currently they are holding over £600 hostage, and demanding CC details to release it. That's blackmail in my book.
A final point... all this 'send us your CC details etc' is explained by 'money-laundering regulations'. Well I've driven a horse and cart through that - I opened another Paypal account using a different e-mail address. No problem at all.
Simpo Two said:
But then it turned out what he wanted was my CC statement, which of course has my CC details on it So I said NO< this is pointless, we're not gettting anywhere.
No it doesn't. The expiry date & CVV2 data is not printed on statements - ergo it's useless as far as taking unauthorised funds is concerned. And quite often the "account number" on your statement isn't actually your CC number anyway. So I said NO< this is pointless, we're not gettting anywhere.timskipper said:
No it doesn't. The expiry date & CVV2 data is not printed on statements - ergo it's useless as far as taking unauthorised funds is concerned. And quite often the "account number" on your statement isn't actually your CC number anyway.
Fair point, although my card number most definitely IS on the statement. Did you see Watchdog last night - the one where from a very bits of info someone could steal an identity? I'm not saying PayPal will do that - but it's made me think twice about sending info to people that don't really need it.So we've smashed Paypal's two assertions. IF they only wanted PID, then they would accept other forms of PID. IF they were really concerned about 'money laundering', then they would stop people opening a new account with a new e-mail address.
So the question remains unanswered - why do they *really* want CC details? The harder I dig, the deeper the answer goes.
JustinP1 said:
Me.
Paypal are just nasty. IMHO it has nothing to do with them fulfilling regulations, just a way of semi-forcing you to sign up for a business account. Did you get to that bit too?
To get access to my money I basically had to tell them company details, a VAT number etc even though it was a personal account. I ended up havingto ring them.
I used to run a Mail Order business on Ebay and very quickly learnt why paypal are better known as PainPal. There are plenty of horror stories about them on the internet. I had to go through the same loop jumping with them.Paypal are just nasty. IMHO it has nothing to do with them fulfilling regulations, just a way of semi-forcing you to sign up for a business account. Did you get to that bit too?
To get access to my money I basically had to tell them company details, a VAT number etc even though it was a personal account. I ended up havingto ring them.
CIS121 said:
[I used to run a Mail Order business on Ebay and very quickly learnt why paypal are better known as PainPal. There are plenty of horror stories about them on the internet. I had to go through the same loop jumping with them.
How did you resolve it? Merely hand over your CC details?Well I've made a little headway - I now have the following option:
site said:
PayPal requires a copy of certain documents for verification purposes to return your account to regular standing.
Please submit each of the following documents: Help
- Proof of address
* Utility Bill
* Bank/Building Society/Credit Union Statement or Passbook
* Council Tax Bill or Payment Book
Do you think this is reasonable? I've e-mail then twice last week but had no reply. Do I jump through these hoops or contact the Banking Ombudsman?Please submit each of the following documents: Help
- Proof of address
* Utility Bill
* Bank/Building Society/Credit Union Statement or Passbook
* Council Tax Bill or Payment Book
Simpo Two said:
Well I've made a little headway - I now have the following option:
I think you might have a problem with taking things further with authorities. Recently they moved and notified everyone that our contract is now with their company based in Luxembourg. They are also not not part of the FSA for the same reason!site said:
PayPal requires a copy of certain documents for verification purposes to return your account to regular standing.
Please submit each of the following documents: Help
- Proof of address
* Utility Bill
* Bank/Building Society/Credit Union Statement or Passbook
* Council Tax Bill or Payment Book
Do you think this is reasonable? I've e-mail then twice last week but had no reply. Do I jump through these hoops or contact the Banking Ombudsman?Please submit each of the following documents: Help
- Proof of address
* Utility Bill
* Bank/Building Society/Credit Union Statement or Passbook
* Council Tax Bill or Payment Book
It stinks really, but they have a hold on the market. If you want to sell on ebay and make anything like what the item is worth you need to use Paypal.
JustinP1 said:
Simpo Two said:
Well I've made a little headway - I now have the following option:
I think you might have a problem with taking things further with authorities. Recently they moved and notified everyone that our contract is now with their company based in Luxembourg. They are also not not part of the FSA for the same reason!site said:
PayPal requires a copy of certain documents for verification purposes to return your account to regular standing.
Please submit each of the following documents: Help
- Proof of address
* Utility Bill
* Bank/Building Society/Credit Union Statement or Passbook
* Council Tax Bill or Payment Book
Do you think this is reasonable? I've e-mail then twice last week but had no reply. Do I jump through these hoops or contact the Banking Ombudsman?Please submit each of the following documents: Help
- Proof of address
* Utility Bill
* Bank/Building Society/Credit Union Statement or Passbook
* Council Tax Bill or Payment Book
It stinks really, but they have a hold on the market. If you want to sell on ebay and make anything like what the item is worth you need to use Paypal.
What they are now offering you is more reasonable but still above the requirements of the AML regs I think.
Update.
I finally keeled over and entered my credit card number. Well done Paypal, you ground me down, you win, I hope you're happy. Multinational conglomerate 1, Helpless peasant 0.
Ha. Now they want me to enter an Expanded Use number. They want to charge my credit card £1, then a number appears on my statement, then I put this number back into box. Apparently this will allow me to enjoy the 'full range of benefits'.
I don't want the full range of benefits, I just want my £700 back.
Warning to all - if you get a warning that you've turned over more than £4,500 - take your money out pronto and open a new account.
I finally keeled over and entered my credit card number. Well done Paypal, you ground me down, you win, I hope you're happy. Multinational conglomerate 1, Helpless peasant 0.
Ha. Now they want me to enter an Expanded Use number. They want to charge my credit card £1, then a number appears on my statement, then I put this number back into box. Apparently this will allow me to enjoy the 'full range of benefits'.
I don't want the full range of benefits, I just want my £700 back.
Warning to all - if you get a warning that you've turned over more than £4,500 - take your money out pronto and open a new account.
To put it bluntley, DO NOT USE PAYPAL.
They are just legal criminals in suits if you like, as a seller they give you absolutley no protection. You are better of dealing in good old fashion cheques etc, or other means, they robbed me of £1500 after a fraudster picked up items he had paid for and then did this "chargeback" and paypal treated me as the criminal!! so keep well away from paypal.
They are just legal criminals in suits if you like, as a seller they give you absolutley no protection. You are better of dealing in good old fashion cheques etc, or other means, they robbed me of £1500 after a fraudster picked up items he had paid for and then did this "chargeback" and paypal treated me as the criminal!! so keep well away from paypal.
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