In Need of Some Legal Advice
Discussion
Seems a bit nuts Deano. Think of it this way - why should the supplier of goods or a service be able to say when the clients requirements are met? Were this to be the situation, the supplier would be able to foist any old tat on the client and say that's good enough for you mate, we're done. Therefore I can't see how he can give you any grief over not paying. I can't comment on the trademark standpoint.
Steve.
Steve.
Edited by Steve_T on Thursday 7th February 18:37
They sound like a load of rubbish. Put in writing your rejection of any items which are imperfect, whilst you should offer payment for the ones that are to your specification and are OK - although it sounds like this has already been done. You are on good ground.
You should also put in writing that you are willing to pay for the order as planned as long as they are to specification. That also puts you on good ground.
With regard to the logo, if you have been using it as a trademark for some time, then legally if the printer was to sell the t-shirts, he may be seen as passing off, ie making himself look like your business. However, this is a gray area.
You may wish to consider at this stage registering your trademark. You dont have to pay solicitors to do it as long as the logo is not close to others. It cost me £200. On application, they check to see if the mark is similar to others and they will warn you that in their opinion would be objected. You can change it slightly to conform or go ahead as planned with the other similar logo owners informed with their rights to complain. It gets published in the trademarks journal for three months then after that the trade mark is yours!
The benefit is that in a legal sense you dont have to prove your losses when you take action to defend your trademark. They have infringed on your registered trademark and this is an offence in itself.
You should also put in writing that you are willing to pay for the order as planned as long as they are to specification. That also puts you on good ground.
With regard to the logo, if you have been using it as a trademark for some time, then legally if the printer was to sell the t-shirts, he may be seen as passing off, ie making himself look like your business. However, this is a gray area.
You may wish to consider at this stage registering your trademark. You dont have to pay solicitors to do it as long as the logo is not close to others. It cost me £200. On application, they check to see if the mark is similar to others and they will warn you that in their opinion would be objected. You can change it slightly to conform or go ahead as planned with the other similar logo owners informed with their rights to complain. It gets published in the trademarks journal for three months then after that the trade mark is yours!
The benefit is that in a legal sense you dont have to prove your losses when you take action to defend your trademark. They have infringed on your registered trademark and this is an offence in itself.
Cant help you Deano, im afraid...
I stand to be corrected of course.
JustinP1 said:
With regard to the logo, if you have been using it as a trademark for some time, then legally if the printer was to sell the t-shirts, he may be seen as passing off, ie making himself look like your business. However, this is a gray area.
...but this is an interesting and gray area. Correct me if Im wrong, but doesnt the designer of the logo own the design, unless something exists in writing stating otherwise? And you (assuming you paid a designer to design the logo) merely own unlimited rights to its use, in representing and promoting your business?I stand to be corrected of course.
Deano
I am in a similar industry and I would suggest the normal rules of the game are as follows:
The printer would reasonably expect an order in writing from the client with as many details on it as neccessary to process and complete the job. This should include position, colour, size of T-Shirts and any other relevant details of the work expected.
The client then provides the artwork either normally in a suitable format to print (whatever you're printing) or the printer creates a design which the client signs off. If the client pays for the design work, he owns it, if the printer doesn't charge then the printer ownes the copywrite of THAT design (not any logos/pictures supplied though).
If a proof is produced, particularly a 'working proof' and that is acceptable to the client the work would be expected to match that proof as closely as possible, givent the technology used. In this instance I would suggest every T-Shirt should in theory be the same or very, very similar.
Job done, delivered and the bill then paid.
You have to bear in mind that the onus is on the client to fully brief the printer, not the other way around, and ideally in writing to eliminate any possible confusion. If however the T-Shirts are not as signed off and not of reasonable quality then you have a right to reject them. It would be good practice to give the printer a chance to produce a satisfactory job, do this in writing so everything is formal in the event of a nasty little battle.
I would suggest in the scheme of things the value of the T-Shirts is nothing to nil to him and he's not likely to sell them as they have your logo on and are worthless (of course could wrong if you're a massive band or something similar!
)
As you are refusing to pay for them, you can only ask or suggest that he donates them to charity or you have to accept he has a right to do with them what he wants. I'm sure he could argue that goods remain his property until paid for in full.
I am in a similar industry and I would suggest the normal rules of the game are as follows:
The printer would reasonably expect an order in writing from the client with as many details on it as neccessary to process and complete the job. This should include position, colour, size of T-Shirts and any other relevant details of the work expected.
The client then provides the artwork either normally in a suitable format to print (whatever you're printing) or the printer creates a design which the client signs off. If the client pays for the design work, he owns it, if the printer doesn't charge then the printer ownes the copywrite of THAT design (not any logos/pictures supplied though).
If a proof is produced, particularly a 'working proof' and that is acceptable to the client the work would be expected to match that proof as closely as possible, givent the technology used. In this instance I would suggest every T-Shirt should in theory be the same or very, very similar.
Job done, delivered and the bill then paid.
You have to bear in mind that the onus is on the client to fully brief the printer, not the other way around, and ideally in writing to eliminate any possible confusion. If however the T-Shirts are not as signed off and not of reasonable quality then you have a right to reject them. It would be good practice to give the printer a chance to produce a satisfactory job, do this in writing so everything is formal in the event of a nasty little battle.
I would suggest in the scheme of things the value of the T-Shirts is nothing to nil to him and he's not likely to sell them as they have your logo on and are worthless (of course could wrong if you're a massive band or something similar!
)As you are refusing to pay for them, you can only ask or suggest that he donates them to charity or you have to accept he has a right to do with them what he wants. I'm sure he could argue that goods remain his property until paid for in full.
UKbob said:
Cant help you Deano, im afraid...
I stand to be corrected of course.
Quite agreed.JustinP1 said:
With regard to the logo, if you have been using it as a trademark for some time, then legally if the printer was to sell the t-shirts, he may be seen as passing off, ie making himself look like your business. However, this is a gray area.
...but this is an interesting and gray area. Correct me if Im wrong, but doesnt the designer of the logo own the design, unless something exists in writing stating otherwise? And you (assuming you paid a designer to design the logo) merely own unlimited rights to its use, in representing and promoting your business?I stand to be corrected of course.
The reason I said it was a grey area is that with regard to the fact that the owner in this instance authorised the use of the trademark, and at this stage the shirt is owned by the printer - legally I personally do not know what a court would find. Of course, that is also hypothetical as with all legal theorising it only becomes actuality until you start legal proceedings. Until then, theory is theory, and for ten shirts I dont think this will end up in court.
I think the shirts will be worthless to either party. I would be suggesting that the printer prints them again and uses the profit from these to pay the minimum costs of binning the original shirts.
JustinP1 said:
UKbob said:
Cant help you Deano, im afraid...
I stand to be corrected of course.
I think the shirts will be worthless to either party. I would be suggesting that the printer prints them again and uses the profit from these to pay the minimum costs of binning the original shirts.JustinP1 said:
With regard to the logo, if you have been using it as a trademark for some time, then legally if the printer was to sell the t-shirts, he may be seen as passing off, ie making himself look like your business. However, this is a gray area.
...but this is an interesting and gray area. Correct me if Im wrong, but doesnt the designer of the logo own the design, unless something exists in writing stating otherwise? And you (assuming you paid a designer to design the logo) merely own unlimited rights to its use, in representing and promoting your business?I stand to be corrected of course.
) to keep him happy. Yet I emailed an existing client just to point out that his latest payment was precisely a fiver short of the settlement due. Its not about the fiver(!) or having to correct the accounts, its that dastardly principle thingy
Interestingly (well, if you're interested ) I rounded down another quote today, this time for a mate - by exactly £5 (again) without even thinking, yet he, on principle, insisted I invoice him for the full £105, which is what we had agreed. Go figure.Naturally, when people start throwing unacceptable products around, regardless of whether they cost a hundred quid or a grand, we demand what we feel we are rightly entitled to.
Edited by UKbob on Thursday 7th February 23:59
Again cheers for the responses guys.
I agree the situation is totally petty. We wanted the run re-done in the correct manner but the other party has made no efforts to rectify the issue whatsoever and has instead gone straight to offering us threats. As this person was meant to be a so called 'friend' it quite simply defies belief and I am rather shocked and upset by the whole situation. Myself and my business partner have both supported his business as friends would and this situation is a proper kick in the nuts. We have easily given him enough business to cover his expenses for the run (the final run was for 70 off) through previous personal purchases but I guess he is choosing to look past this and is willing to loose our friendship over a small amount of money.
If he shoe was on the other foot I would like to think firstly I would hold up my hands and say that they clearly weren't done correctly and secondly would do everything in my power to correct the issue. It saddens me to think that people can be like this but you live and learn I guess.
Although I have made sure not to include any identifying information I will remove my initial posting in case of any legal proceedings.
Once again thanks for your time and I will endeavour to detail the outcome if a resolution occurs in the near future.
I agree the situation is totally petty. We wanted the run re-done in the correct manner but the other party has made no efforts to rectify the issue whatsoever and has instead gone straight to offering us threats. As this person was meant to be a so called 'friend' it quite simply defies belief and I am rather shocked and upset by the whole situation. Myself and my business partner have both supported his business as friends would and this situation is a proper kick in the nuts. We have easily given him enough business to cover his expenses for the run (the final run was for 70 off) through previous personal purchases but I guess he is choosing to look past this and is willing to loose our friendship over a small amount of money.
If he shoe was on the other foot I would like to think firstly I would hold up my hands and say that they clearly weren't done correctly and secondly would do everything in my power to correct the issue. It saddens me to think that people can be like this but you live and learn I guess.
Although I have made sure not to include any identifying information I will remove my initial posting in case of any legal proceedings.
Once again thanks for your time and I will endeavour to detail the outcome if a resolution occurs in the near future.
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