Evicting a tenant
Discussion
A bit of help needed here please.
Situation has come about through my lack of care in the whole process which i've been having serious words with myself about but now i'm just trying to resolve it as quickly as possible and learn to not make the same mistake ever again.
Its all started because a member of my family has emigrated, leaving a flat behind. Couldn't sell it so i offered to get it rented out. Found someone, and this person needed to move in quick and because of other personal things going on at the time and believing he was a decent guy i accepted a cheque for the deposit and first month's rent and that the references would be in the post. First mistake. Cheque bounced, and cheque was supposedly from previous landlord who the tenant then 'chased up' while giving it partly in cash in the meantime. References still had not turned up.
This was all supposed to be sorted the following week where they said they'd pay cash directly into the bank. Money never turned up. Kept fobbing me off with excuses, that the bank made an error etc and it was 2 weeks later before i saw the stub which had different name and account details on...yep apparently the cashiers fault. At this point i came to senses and sought the references, which have turned out to be fake, so i've been had.
So i'm trying to evict tenant now, who seems like they're one of those 'professional tenants' who know their stuff, he's contacted the local tenancy officer who's obviously on his side and i'm stuck. I'm now trying to serve a section 8 notice based on grounds 8, 10, 11 and 17 the latter being supply of fraudulent documents to deceive me.
I was advised by a police friend that i could have him arrested on suspicion of fraud, but what would they do exactly and what can happen to him? I wish to cause him the utmost inconvenience and trouble and damage his credit rating, anything and everything really.
In the meantime can anyone offer any input on the best way to sort out this mess? And any help on the whole section 8 notice to serve?
Many thanks in advance, we just want possession back mainly, though anything that we can do in revenge would probably help ease the anger!
Situation has come about through my lack of care in the whole process which i've been having serious words with myself about but now i'm just trying to resolve it as quickly as possible and learn to not make the same mistake ever again.
Its all started because a member of my family has emigrated, leaving a flat behind. Couldn't sell it so i offered to get it rented out. Found someone, and this person needed to move in quick and because of other personal things going on at the time and believing he was a decent guy i accepted a cheque for the deposit and first month's rent and that the references would be in the post. First mistake. Cheque bounced, and cheque was supposedly from previous landlord who the tenant then 'chased up' while giving it partly in cash in the meantime. References still had not turned up.
This was all supposed to be sorted the following week where they said they'd pay cash directly into the bank. Money never turned up. Kept fobbing me off with excuses, that the bank made an error etc and it was 2 weeks later before i saw the stub which had different name and account details on...yep apparently the cashiers fault. At this point i came to senses and sought the references, which have turned out to be fake, so i've been had.
So i'm trying to evict tenant now, who seems like they're one of those 'professional tenants' who know their stuff, he's contacted the local tenancy officer who's obviously on his side and i'm stuck. I'm now trying to serve a section 8 notice based on grounds 8, 10, 11 and 17 the latter being supply of fraudulent documents to deceive me.
I was advised by a police friend that i could have him arrested on suspicion of fraud, but what would they do exactly and what can happen to him? I wish to cause him the utmost inconvenience and trouble and damage his credit rating, anything and everything really.
In the meantime can anyone offer any input on the best way to sort out this mess? And any help on the whole section 8 notice to serve?
Many thanks in advance, we just want possession back mainly, though anything that we can do in revenge would probably help ease the anger!
Get proper legal advice from someone who knows the law in this area and who can go through the facts with you in detail. For example if you really aren't bothered about the arrears then perhaps s.21 accelerated possession might be possible?
Be sure of three things:
1. It will cost you to get possession back.
2. It will take time.
3. The tenant will have access to a vast array of free legal advisors who will try to prevent him being made homeless.
It's essential that you get this right otherwise it will drag on. I've come across numerous landlords who've had possession actions delayed or opened themselves up to counterclaims because they've got either the possession proceedings wrong or have screwed up something with the tenancy.
Be sure of three things:
1. It will cost you to get possession back.
2. It will take time.
3. The tenant will have access to a vast array of free legal advisors who will try to prevent him being made homeless.
It's essential that you get this right otherwise it will drag on. I've come across numerous landlords who've had possession actions delayed or opened themselves up to counterclaims because they've got either the possession proceedings wrong or have screwed up something with the tenancy.
It is a recent let (just over 1 month ago). I did not put the deposit in the TDS because no deposit materialised...
Is a s.21 the way to go then? Would not going through s.8 ground 17 for fraud be the best? As only 2 weeks notice needs to be given before court proceedings?
I read from somewhere that with a s.21 I can still sue the tenant for costs and missing rent...is this correct? I know the tenant makes decent money...but is just a c*ck
Is a s.21 the way to go then? Would not going through s.8 ground 17 for fraud be the best? As only 2 weeks notice needs to be given before court proceedings?
I read from somewhere that with a s.21 I can still sue the tenant for costs and missing rent...is this correct? I know the tenant makes decent money...but is just a c*ck
Seany88 said:
Is a s.21 the way to go then? Would not going through s.8 ground 17 for fraud be the best? As only 2 weeks notice needs to be given before court proceedings?
This is why you need to see someone who can go through all the facts. S21 has the benefit of being a paper exercise and doesn't always need a hearing, which does add more delay. It also depends how far through the AST period the tenant is as to what might be quickest / least trouble.You have served a s.48 notice havent you?
Grounds 8, 10 and 11 deal with rent arrears. Ground 8 is mandatory (ie the court must order possession) there needs to be 2 months rent arrears (if paid monthly, 8 weeks if paid weekly) at the date of service of the notice and the date of the hearing for possession. You might not be in this position yet depending on exact dates and when rent falls due, you need to work it out.
As you are in the fixed term period you must ensure there is a forfeiture clause in the agreement (please, please tell me you have a written contract?) otherwise you are stuffed.
Failing the two months rent arrears under ground 8, grounds 10 and 11 can be relied upon
10 = some rent lawfully due on date of issue of proceedings and at date of service of s8 notice
11 = persistent delay in payment of rent.
I dont think you can make out ground 11 because delay must be persistent, hes only been there 1 month and so I would suggest that cannot be persistent. Ground 10 you could rely upon, note as above that rent must be lawfully due - rent is not lawfully due unless you have served a s48 notice.
Even if grounds 10/11 are made out these are discretionary (as is 17, suggested above) and therefore the judge must also deem it reasonable to grant possession. If possession is granted he can suspend that order for possession upon terms, or he can adjourn the matter upon terms.
Ground 17 is not 'fraud' as you mention, it is a false statement, made knowingly or recklessly by the tenant or tenants agent which induced you to grant the tenancy. I'm really not sure what your policeman friend is suggesting but whatever it is I dont think will help you in the civil courts. I don't know the circumstances so cant really comment on this ground.
Also consider ground 12 - Any obligation of the tenancy (other than payment of rent) has been broken or not performed. I hope you have written into your tenancy an obligation regarding payment of deposit for instance?)
Lastly I do no understand your point about ground 17 allowing you to issue proceedings in only two weeks - all of the grounds which you have suggested under the 1988 Act have the same provision (see section 8(3)(a), s(8)(4A) and s8(4B) of the HA 1988 for timescales).
If you are comparing the provisions of a s8 notice with the provisions of a s21 notice, regarding time scales, your considerations are unfortunately futile here, due to the reasons in my above post (cant rely on a s21 notice to quit inside the first 6 months - or more accurately you can issue the notice but the date to quit cannot be inside the initial 6 months.
ETA if you dont understand my post you will probably make a mistake (no offence intended) in dealing with this issue - if you have an opponent who is on the ball your claim can be dismissed, with costs awarded against you if you make procedural errors (eg defective s8 notice). I have seen landlords try to do it themselves to save money and end up costing themselves a fortune in paying the other sides legal costs, and then having to instruct solicitors to sort out the mess, whilst during that period tenant remains happily in the property paying no rent and thus costing you more money.
Average 'agency' style assistance will cost you £500 or so, a decent solicitor will probably be between £900 and £1200 if this has to be pursued all the way to a hearing I would guess.
As you are in the fixed term period you must ensure there is a forfeiture clause in the agreement (please, please tell me you have a written contract?) otherwise you are stuffed.
Failing the two months rent arrears under ground 8, grounds 10 and 11 can be relied upon
10 = some rent lawfully due on date of issue of proceedings and at date of service of s8 notice
11 = persistent delay in payment of rent.
I dont think you can make out ground 11 because delay must be persistent, hes only been there 1 month and so I would suggest that cannot be persistent. Ground 10 you could rely upon, note as above that rent must be lawfully due - rent is not lawfully due unless you have served a s48 notice.
Even if grounds 10/11 are made out these are discretionary (as is 17, suggested above) and therefore the judge must also deem it reasonable to grant possession. If possession is granted he can suspend that order for possession upon terms, or he can adjourn the matter upon terms.
Ground 17 is not 'fraud' as you mention, it is a false statement, made knowingly or recklessly by the tenant or tenants agent which induced you to grant the tenancy. I'm really not sure what your policeman friend is suggesting but whatever it is I dont think will help you in the civil courts. I don't know the circumstances so cant really comment on this ground.
Also consider ground 12 - Any obligation of the tenancy (other than payment of rent) has been broken or not performed. I hope you have written into your tenancy an obligation regarding payment of deposit for instance?)
Lastly I do no understand your point about ground 17 allowing you to issue proceedings in only two weeks - all of the grounds which you have suggested under the 1988 Act have the same provision (see section 8(3)(a), s(8)(4A) and s8(4B) of the HA 1988 for timescales).
If you are comparing the provisions of a s8 notice with the provisions of a s21 notice, regarding time scales, your considerations are unfortunately futile here, due to the reasons in my above post (cant rely on a s21 notice to quit inside the first 6 months - or more accurately you can issue the notice but the date to quit cannot be inside the initial 6 months.
ETA if you dont understand my post you will probably make a mistake (no offence intended) in dealing with this issue - if you have an opponent who is on the ball your claim can be dismissed, with costs awarded against you if you make procedural errors (eg defective s8 notice). I have seen landlords try to do it themselves to save money and end up costing themselves a fortune in paying the other sides legal costs, and then having to instruct solicitors to sort out the mess, whilst during that period tenant remains happily in the property paying no rent and thus costing you more money.
Average 'agency' style assistance will cost you £500 or so, a decent solicitor will probably be between £900 and £1200 if this has to be pursued all the way to a hearing I would guess.
Edited by soprano on Wednesday 5th August 22:10
Edited by soprano on Wednesday 5th August 23:01
Taita said:
I would suggest a bunch of mates, 3am and a transit van. Worked for my Dad's friend when he was getting rid of squatters.
I'm surprised more people dont do this. Were talking a lot of money if it drags on , with a professional squatter imo its theft of goods/services./internet tough guy mode off.
"ETA if you dont understand my post you will probably make a mistake (no offence intended) in dealing with this issue - if you have an opponent who is on the ball your claim can be dismissed, with costs awarded against you if you make procedural errors (eg defective s8 notice). I have seen landlords try to do it themselves to save money and end up costing themselves a fortune in paying the other sides legal costs, and then having to instruct solicitors to sort out the mess, whilst during that period tenant remains happily in the property paying no rent and thus costing you more money.
Average 'agency' style assistance will cost you £500 or so, a decent solicitor will probably be between £900 and £1200 if this has to be pursued all the way to a hearing I would guess.
[/quote]
As a Landlord, having used both Section 8 and 21 Notices to evict tenants, I have to agree with Soprano that possibly the best course of action for the OP to take would be to employ expert legal advice,preferably an experience solicitor. Using professional help will achieve an early eviction, where as a botched attempt by the OP will incure further losses in achievable rental income.
Average 'agency' style assistance will cost you £500 or so, a decent solicitor will probably be between £900 and £1200 if this has to be pursued all the way to a hearing I would guess.
Edited by soprano on Wednesday 5th August 22:10
[/quote]
As a Landlord, having used both Section 8 and 21 Notices to evict tenants, I have to agree with Soprano that possibly the best course of action for the OP to take would be to employ expert legal advice,preferably an experience solicitor. Using professional help will achieve an early eviction, where as a botched attempt by the OP will incure further losses in achievable rental income.
Jazzer77 said:
Taita said:
I would suggest a bunch of mates, 3am and a transit van. Worked for my Dad's friend when he was getting rid of squatters.
I'm surprised more people dont do this. Were talking a lot of money if it drags on , with a professional squatter imo its theft of goods/services./internet tough guy mode off.
I know Landlords who supply keys to a couple of their mates, in order that they can rent/sleep over in the “other” part of the tenanted premises, really for the OP to work out who he his (tenant) dealing with, will repercussions follow etc.
Wings said:
soprano said:
You cannot rely on a section 21 notice to quit within the first 6 months of the AST (see s21(5) of the HA 1988).
You can, but being still a 2 months Notice, then the Notice under a section 21 must be served on the 4th month of the Tenancy.Wings said:
Jazzer77 said:
Taita said:
I would suggest a bunch of mates, 3am and a transit van. Worked for my Dad's friend when he was getting rid of squatters.
I'm surprised more people dont do this. Were talking a lot of money if it drags on , with a professional squatter imo its theft of goods/services./internet tough guy mode off.
I know Landlords who supply keys to a couple of their mates, in order that they can rent/sleep over in the “other” part of the tenanted premises, really for the OP to work out who he his (tenant) dealing with, will repercussions follow etc.
you said first cheque bounced and then they paid some in cash. If I were the nasty tenant, I would say that the cheque bouncing was for the rent and cash was towards the deposit. As you have not regisitered the deposit you are going to get shafted even more.
The courts may also view a cheque being paid, is sufficent grounds that you should have registered the deposit, the issue that it did not clear my not matter to them. Just thinking worst case.
I think you have really screwed up on this and you need to get professional help asap.
Why did you not use an agent?
The courts may also view a cheque being paid, is sufficent grounds that you should have registered the deposit, the issue that it did not clear my not matter to them. Just thinking worst case.
I think you have really screwed up on this and you need to get professional help asap.
Why did you not use an agent?
soprano said:
Wings said:
soprano said:
You cannot rely on a section 21 notice to quit within the first 6 months of the AST (see s21(5) of the HA 1988).
You can, but being still a 2 months Notice, then the Notice under a section 21 must be served on the 4th month of the Tenancy.Thanks for all the replies so far. I might not be able to answer all questions at the moment as i'm on my phone and it can't cope with the formatting very well.
The property was initially up with a very well known international estate agent but they weren't able to find anyone so i thought i'd give it a go.
The tenant moved in 22th june and has so far paid £600 when rent is £800/mth and deposit should be £1200. Shockingly this morning he has paid £1400 which has cleared so now he is just owing rent for august. So firstly i should get the deposit registered is that correct?
There is a tenancy agreement, the one offered on RLA though i can't seem to find a clause about the deposit, though i don't suppose it matters now that we've received the deposit?
A section 48 notice has not been issued, i guess this is the next thing to do?
We are looking to get professional advice from a solicitor now but just want to know other opinions etc just to be fully aware of the situation.
With regards to ground 17 well the reference is a letter from a private bank manager who doesn't exist so does this not count?
What's the best step to take now, especially in light of him paying the deposit and initial month's rent? Can i still use ground 17 to seek possession?
The property was initially up with a very well known international estate agent but they weren't able to find anyone so i thought i'd give it a go.
The tenant moved in 22th june and has so far paid £600 when rent is £800/mth and deposit should be £1200. Shockingly this morning he has paid £1400 which has cleared so now he is just owing rent for august. So firstly i should get the deposit registered is that correct?
There is a tenancy agreement, the one offered on RLA though i can't seem to find a clause about the deposit, though i don't suppose it matters now that we've received the deposit?
A section 48 notice has not been issued, i guess this is the next thing to do?
We are looking to get professional advice from a solicitor now but just want to know other opinions etc just to be fully aware of the situation.
With regards to ground 17 well the reference is a letter from a private bank manager who doesn't exist so does this not count?
What's the best step to take now, especially in light of him paying the deposit and initial month's rent? Can i still use ground 17 to seek possession?
Seany88 said:
Thanks for all the replies so far. I might not be able to answer all questions at the moment as i'm on my phone and it can't cope with the formatting very well.
The property was initially up with a very well known international estate agent but they weren't able to find anyone so i thought i'd give it a go.
The tenant moved in 22th june and has so far paid £600 when rent is £800/mth and deposit should be £1200. Shockingly this morning he has paid £1400 which has cleared so now he is just owing rent for august. So firstly i should get the deposit registered is that correct?
There is a tenancy agreement, the one offered on RLA though i can't seem to find a clause about the deposit, though i don't suppose it matters now that we've received the deposit?
A section 48 notice has not been issued, i guess this is the next thing to do?
We are looking to get professional advice from a solicitor now but just want to know other opinions etc just to be fully aware of the situation.
With regards to ground 17 well the reference is a letter from a private bank manager who doesn't exist so does this not count?
What's the best step to take now, especially in light of him paying the deposit and initial month's rent? Can i still use ground 17 to seek possession?
Best bet is to move another squatter in, surely? The property was initially up with a very well known international estate agent but they weren't able to find anyone so i thought i'd give it a go.
The tenant moved in 22th june and has so far paid £600 when rent is £800/mth and deposit should be £1200. Shockingly this morning he has paid £1400 which has cleared so now he is just owing rent for august. So firstly i should get the deposit registered is that correct?
There is a tenancy agreement, the one offered on RLA though i can't seem to find a clause about the deposit, though i don't suppose it matters now that we've received the deposit?
A section 48 notice has not been issued, i guess this is the next thing to do?
We are looking to get professional advice from a solicitor now but just want to know other opinions etc just to be fully aware of the situation.
With regards to ground 17 well the reference is a letter from a private bank manager who doesn't exist so does this not count?
What's the best step to take now, especially in light of him paying the deposit and initial month's rent? Can i still use ground 17 to seek possession?
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