5G no-no

[Super Slo Mo]

I can’t access it through my phone. It wants to charge me.

No, in my experience journalists either don’t understand what it is they’re writing about, or they have an agenda. I doubt independent bloggers are any better in that respect.
Maybe something from a scientific Journal, or maybe a number of articles so I can cross reference them and do some research.

[Bullitt Five-Oh]

Super Slo Mo said:

I can’t access it through my phone. It wants to charge me.

No, in my experience journalists either don’t understand what it is they’re writing about, or they have an agenda. I doubt independent bloggers are any better in that respect.
Maybe something from a scientific Journal, or maybe a number of articles so I can cross reference them and do some research.

Or maybe do your own research then, if the sources provided in the article don't sound credible to you (Swiss government/trade bodies I mean)? Luckily using google doesn't require PhD in rocket science or Nobel prize in physics.

[Super Slo Mo]

Bullitt Five-Oh said:

Or maybe do your own research then, if the sources provided in the article don't sound credible to you (Swiss government/trade bodies I mean)? Luckily using google doesn't require PhD in rocket science or Nobel prize in physics.

As I said, I can't read the article, so how would I know the sources? There is nothing else on Google that I can find.

[Corso Marche]

That article is indeed behind a paywall, but I found the text of it using a string search and by blocking any tracking.

It's very, very short and doesn't say much except the Swiss telco's are not happy with the work/investment required to upgrade to 5G because they feel as if they were previously hampered by the authorities, and say they have a number of obstacles to overcome to meet the brief set out by the authorities to have a new Swiss network comparable with the best internationally.
It's soundbites, as opposed to technical reasons.

From https://www.24heures.ch/suisse/5g-risque-arriver-r...
See below;
"La 5G risque d'arriver en retard en Suisse Téléphonie La nouvelle technologie est jugée comme indispensable à notre évolution numérique.Mais les obstacles à son introduction sont nombreux.

--- Missing photo from article ---
Installation d'une antenne sur les toits d'un immeuble zurichois: ces antennes indisposent physiquement une partie de la population.Doit-on les condamner ou les remplacer par une autre technologie?(Photo: CHRISTIAN BEUTLER/KEYSTONE) 255 3

Lucie Monnat Le Conseil fédéral veut une Suisse qui n'ait pas à rougir de ses capacités numériques.En matière de téléphonie, le gouvernement souhaite carrément placer la Suisse au plus haut niveau en comparaison internationale», selon ses déclarations lors de l'adoption de la stratégie «Suisse numérique», en avril 2016. Volonté répétée lors de la Journée suisse du numérique, le 21 novembre dernier.Pour y parvenir, le Conseil fédéral tente, entre autres, de planifier l'introduction de la 5G sur notre territoire.Une manoeuvre qui est pourtant en train de se transformer en véritable parcours d'obstacles.Début novembre, les sept Sages ont attribué des fréquences radio supplémentaires afin d'introduire la technologie 5G à l'horizon 2020, à l'instar des autres pays européens.Les trois grands opérateurs de Suisse - Swisscom, Salt et Sunrise ne sont pas à la fête pour autant.La Suisse applique des valeurs limites dix fois plus sévères que dans l'Union européenne.Le quota de rayonnement non ionisant dans les régions urbaines est ainsi déjà épuisé sur plus de 90% des stations de base existantes.Impossible d'installer la 5G sur ces antennes déjà saturées"

I can't find any sources quoted or referenced with what I could access, except credit for the photo used.

Edited by Corso Marche on Tuesday 11th December 09:32

[Super Slo Mo]

Thanks for taking the trouble to do that.

[smn159]

Where in that article does it point out the specific health dangers of 5G?

[Corso Marche]

Nowhere.

[smn159]

So any other sources backing up your concerns, Mr Five-Oh?

[Bullitt Five-Oh]

smn159 said:

So any other sources backing up your concerns, Mr Five-Oh?

Je suis toujours ouvert aux défis, en particulier ceux des hienas en ligne comme vous, monsieur smn159.

Your boy Corso Marche (bonsoir monsieur Corso, comment ça va) did a very stty job at finding the article in it's entirety. It's at least 2x as long. Not to mention that if you collectively cannot find any subject on 5G in Switzerland in English using google or a way to read that article in full without subscription (hint, I didn't even know there was a paywall) then all the pretending that you know that 5G is ok has very weak foundations. I just hope that those who set the radiation limits are at least capable of using google properly.

[deckster]

Bullitt Five-Oh said:

Je suis toujours ouvert aux défis, en particulier ceux des hienas en ligne comme vous, monsieur smn159.

Your boy Corso Marche (bonsoir monsieur Corso, comment ça va) did a very stty job at finding the article in it's entirety. It's at least 2x as long. Not to mention that if you collectively cannot find any subject on 5G in Switzerland in English using google or a way to read that article in full without subscription (hint, I didn't even know there was a paywall) then all the pretending that you know that 5G is ok has very weak foundations. I just hope that those who set the radiation limits are at least capable of using google properly.

So, out of interest, are you ever going to articulate your concerns and back them up properly?

Or are you going to continue to evade, post snide remarks about using google, and generally make yourself look like a bit of an arse?

[Bullitt Five-Oh]

deckster said:

Bullitt Five-Oh said:

Je suis toujours ouvert aux défis, en particulier ceux des hienas en ligne comme vous, monsieur smn159.

Your boy Corso Marche (bonsoir monsieur Corso, comment ça va) did a very stty job at finding the article in it's entirety. It's at least 2x as long. Not to mention that if you collectively cannot find any subject on 5G in Switzerland in English using google or a way to read that article in full without subscription (hint, I didn't even know there was a paywall) then all the pretending that you know that 5G is ok has very weak foundations. I just hope that those who set the radiation limits are at least capable of using google properly.

So, out of interest, are you ever going to articulate your concerns and back them up properly?

Or are you going to continue to evade, post snide remarks about using google, and generally make yourself look like a bit of an arse?

I will just give me 10 years. I'd love to do what you guys do so the career change (study in the field then getting a grant and then doing the research) ain't an easy ting. Hopefully you can wait that long?

[smn159]

Bullitt Five-Oh said:

Je suis toujours ouvert aux défis, en particulier ceux des hienas en ligne comme vous, monsieur smn159.

Your boy Corso Marche (bonsoir monsieur Corso, comment ça va) did a very stty job at finding the article in it's entirety. It's at least 2x as long. Not to mention that if you collectively cannot find any subject on 5G in Switzerland in English using google or a way to read that article in full without subscription (hint, I didn't even know there was a paywall) then all the pretending that you know that 5G is ok has very weak foundations. I just hope that those who set the radiation limits are at least capable of using google properly.

Yeah, thought not

[Bullitt Five-Oh]

smn159 said:

Bullitt Five-Oh said:

Je suis toujours ouvert aux défis, en particulier ceux des hienas en ligne comme vous, monsieur smn159.

Your boy Corso Marche (bonsoir monsieur Corso, comment ça va) did a very stty job at finding the article in it's entirety. It's at least 2x as long. Not to mention that if you collectively cannot find any subject on 5G in Switzerland in English using google or a way to read that article in full without subscription (hint, I didn't even know there was a paywall) then all the pretending that you know that 5G is ok has very weak foundations. I just hope that those who set the radiation limits are at least capable of using google properly.

Yeah, thought not

Let me just quote the poet here, since your position in this thread is quite clear to anyone who can use the find function in their browser:

"When seagulls follow the trawler it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea"

It's the position of merde stuck to the pelle, in case you didn't understand what the poet meant by that seagull reference,

[Corso Marche]

Bullitt Five-Oh said:

Your boy Corso Marche (bonsoir monsieur Corso, comment ça va) did a very stty job at finding the article in it's entirety.

First off, I'm not anybody's 'boy'.

Secondly, I'm always interested in new technologies and impacts on society, especially health and social behaviour. This is why I spent about 20 seconds this morning on my phone trying to find the contents of the article. Once I'd found that section above it was clear it was just column filler, with no substance. Sorry. I would've been interested if it had some facts or research studies as sources, but alas no. You could've just saved us all the trouble by posting it yourself though.

Or did you choose not to because it doesn't indicate any health dangers from 5G ? It merely states some members of the public are concerned because they don't have an understanding of the technology and are worried. Followed by;
"Aucune étude internationale n’a établi ce danger pour la santé" which translates to "No international study has established this danger to health."

In the interests of balance (which is what my 20 seconds this morning also were), I've taken the time (all 40-50 secs.) to locate and copy the full text to below;

From https://www.24heures.ch/suisse/5g-risque-arriver-r...
"La 5G risque d'arriver en retard en Suisse Téléphonie La nouvelle technologie est jugée comme indispensable à notre évolution numérique.Mais les obstacles à son introduction sont nombreux.

--- Missing photo from article ---
Installation d'une antenne sur les toits d'un immeuble zurichois: ces antennes indisposent physiquement une partie de la population.Doit-on les condamner ou les remplacer par une autre technologie?(Photo: CHRISTIAN BEUTLER/KEYSTONE) 255 3

Lucie Monnat Le Conseil fédéral veut une Suisse qui n'ait pas à rougir de ses capacités numériques.En matière de téléphonie, le gouvernement souhaite carrément placer la Suisse au plus haut niveau en comparaison internationale», selon ses déclarations lors de l'adoption de la stratégie «Suisse numérique», en avril 2016. Volonté répétée lors de la Journée suisse du numérique, le 21 novembre dernier.Pour y parvenir, le Conseil fédéral tente, entre autres, de planifier l'introduction de la 5G sur notre territoire.Une manoeuvre qui est pourtant en train de se transformer en véritable parcours d'obstacles.Début novembre, les sept Sages ont attribué des fréquences radio supplémentaires afin d'introduire la technologie 5G à l'horizon 2020, à l'instar des autres pays européens.Les trois grands opérateurs de Suisse - Swisscom, Salt et Sunrise ne sont pas à la fête pour autant.La Suisse applique des valeurs limites dix fois plus sévères que dans l'Union européenne.Le quota de rayonnement non ionisant dans les régions urbaines est ainsi déjà épuisé sur plus de 90% des stations de base existantes.Impossible d'installer la 5G sur ces antennes déjà saturées.

--- Missing photo from article ---

Désactiver les anciennes technologies pour laisser la place aux nouvelles, comme cela a été fait pour la 4G (la 2G avait alors été mise hors service), se révélerait également insuffisant. «Aujourd’hui déjà, la demande en bande passante est exponentielle, explique le porte-parole de Swisscom, Christian Neuhaus. Sur notre réseau mobile, nous constatons d’année en année un doublement du trafic des données. D’ici à 2020, nous estimons que la Suisse comptera plus de 200 millions d’objets connectés, essentiellement par le réseau mobile. De nouvelles fréquences sont essentielles pour faire face à cette demande.»

Augmenter le nombre d’antennes ne représente pas non plus une solution satisfaisante, tant pour les défenseurs de l’environnement que pour l’économie: non seulement la mesure serait coûteuse, mais elle ralentirait fortement le processus.

Dans le doute, on s’abstient

La solution serait donc d’assouplir l’ordonnance sur la protection contre le rayonnement non ionisant (ORNI). «Pour l’instant, la Suisse n’est pas encore en retard, vu que l’introduction de la 5G est prévue pour 2020, poursuit Christian Neuhaus. Mais il est clair qu’à terme, nous risquons d’être largués. Il faut qu’il y ait une discussion au niveau politique.» Elle a déjà été amorcée au parlement. L’an passé, le Conseil national, soutenu par le Conseil fédéral, a accepté une motion allant dans ce sens. Celle-ci a cependant été rejetée en décembre 2016 par le Conseil des États, à l’issue d’un débat animé. Le point de discorde? Les potentiels effets de l’augmentation des ondes sur notre santé. Une majorité de sénateurs ont tenu compte des préoccupations d’une partie de la population. Selon deux sondages menés par l’OFS en 2011 et en 2015, la méfiance face aux ondes est partagée par près de la moitié des Suisses. Quant à savoir si cette crainte est fondée ou non, la réponse n’est pas arrêtée (lire encadré).

«Il est clair qu’à terme, nous risquons d’être largués. Il faut qu’il y ait une discussion au niveau politique»
Dans le doute, on s’abstient, a donc estimé la Chambre des cantons, au grand dam du PLR. «Cette ordonnance est une grande erreur. À l’heure actuelle, la Suisse n’a aucune chance d’accueillir la 5G, déplore Christian Wasserfallen (PLR/BE). Aucune étude internationale n’a établi ce danger pour la santé. Actuellement, les valeurs de l’ORNI sont à 5 volts par mètre. L’OMS recommande un maximum de 50. Si l’on augmentait à 30, nous serions encore bien loin de ces recommandations.» Pour le conseiller national, ces restrictions entraînent une situation paradoxale: «Plus le réseau est faible, plus le rayonnement émis par le portable est fort et plus les ondes qui passent par la tête sont importantes. Ce n’est pas de la politique, c’est de la physique!»

Oliver Francais (PLR/VD) se situe un peu en porte-à-faux de son parti sur cette question. «C’est vrai, il n’y a pas de base scientifique, mais on arrive à suivre les effets des ondes. Que la petite antenne sur mon portable produise des fréquences qui passent par mon cerveau est un fait avéré», souligne le conseiller aux États, qui évoque également des connaissances souffrant d’électrosensibilité. «Il existe des personnes plus sensibles que d’autres, dont le corps élimine moins facilement que d’autres ces expositions.»

Solutions alternatives?

Olivier Français reconnaît l’importance et le caractère inéluctable de l’évolution de la technologie. «C’est fondamental. Mais il tient aussi de la responsabilité des opérateurs de trouver des solutions alternatives. On peut très bien augmenter les normes maintenant, mais avec l’évolution et l’augmentation des échanges de données, il est fort à parier que le même problème se posera plus tard.»

Un avis partagé par l’Office fédéral de l’environnement (OFEV), qui met pour sa part en avant l’exemple de la ville de Saint-Gall et sa connexion Internet sans fil (WLAN), mise gratuitement à disposition du public. La Municipalité a installé en 2012 quarante antennes WLAN au centre-ville. La portée de celles-ci est plus faible que les antennes de téléphonie mobile – il en faut donc plus pour parvenir à la même efficacité – mais leur rayonnement est sensiblement inférieur. Ainsi, malgré la forte augmentation du volume de données depuis le lancement du projet, le rayonnement a diminué d’environ un quart. En cas d’épuisement des capacités, un émetteur WLAN supplémentaire peut tout simplement être ajouté. Comme la puissance de ces antennes est inférieure à 0,1 watt, il ne faut ni permis de construire ni autorisation d’exploitation. Selon les conducteurs du projet, à long terme la téléphonie via Internet pourrait se développer grâce à ces antennes. Les grandes agglomérations pourraient ainsi supprimer, à moyen terme, bon nombre de grandes antennes à rayonnement intensif."

If you've some other pieces or any information indicating dangers, or potential dangers of 5G please feel free to share. Otherwise please pull back on the snide remarks and petty insults. This is the article you linked to, not anybody else on here.

[Bullitt Five-Oh]

Corso Marche said:

Bullitt Five-Oh said:

Your boy Corso Marche (bonsoir monsieur Corso, comment ça va) did a very stty job at finding the article in it's entirety.

First off, I'm not anybody's 'boy'.

No worries, gringo!

Corso Marche said:

If you've some other pieces or any information indicating dangers, or potential dangers of 5G please feel free to share. Otherwise please pull back on the snide remarks and petty insults. This is the article you linked to, not anybody else on here.

Can I just remind you (because I can see that you're lost) that the development of Swiss discussion started from this

Bullitt Five-Oh said:

If there are any concerns or health related obstacles to 5G we can just push the boundaries and force the regulators to increase 3x the "acceptable" limits. Like in Switzerland for example where 5G wasn't possible until the change in acceptable radiation limits that happened recently (finally, what a relief for all the telco executives out there), all in the name of being progressive and accepting towards new technology.

And this

Super Slo Mo said:

Incidentally, I did a little googling when I had a spare few minutes regarding the Swiss '5G' limits that the OP alluded to. I couldn't find anything, so a definitive link to that would be nice.

Here, because I feel sorry for you lot, I'm going to get charitable n st

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/sci-tech/can-you-hear...
https://www.telecompaper.com/news/swiss-govt-plans...

Yes the second link is behind paywall and yes I know you don't know how to use google so won't be able to work out how to circumvent most paywalls but just have a read through the available bits on this particular site. Hopefully we can now close the "I couldn't find anything on the Swiss '5G' limits" and move on to another ststorm?

[Corso Marche]

I didn't ask for info on the Swiss changing their regs on RF frequencies so as to be inline with EU regs.

I asked if you could share any info or indicators on potential dangers of 5G.

Corso Marche said:

If you've some other pieces or any information indicating dangers, or potential dangers of 5G please feel free to share.

You seem a tad confused, so I've placed my original comment/request above, for simplicity.

[Bullitt Five-Oh]

Corso Marche said:

I didn't ask for info on the Swiss changing their regs on RF frequencies so as to be inline with EU regs.

Just as a reminder, this is your first post in this thread:

Corso Marche said:

That article is indeed behind a paywall, but I found the text of it using a string search and by blocking any tracking.

It's very, very short and doesn't say much except the Swiss telco's are not happy with the work/investment required to upgrade to 5G because they feel as if they were previously hampered by the authorities, and say they have a number of obstacles to overcome to meet the brief set out by the authorities to have a new Swiss network comparable with the best internationally.
It's soundbites, as opposed to technical reasons.

(...)

I can't find any sources quoted or referenced with what I could access, except credit for the photo used.

Plutôt cool, innit?

Corso Marche said:

I asked if you could share any info or indicators on potential dangers of 5G.

Yes you did, there's no denying that you did but you did that in context of the Swiss discussion, i.e. you changed the subject for some reason. The context was Swiss regs and you asking a broad question demanding answers in this context indicate that you have either short attention span, or you thought that I'm your fkboy.

Here's a rappel:

Corso Marche said:

If you've some other pieces or any information indicating dangers, or potential dangers of 5G please feel free to share.

Also plutôt cool, safe fam?

Corso Marche said:

You seem a tad confused

Oh the irony.

Corso Marche said:

so I've placed my original comment/request above, for simplicity.

I think that you should practice simplicity, it's pretty clear that you drown in more complex discussions.

[deckster]

Bullitt Five-Oh said:

I think that you should practice simplicity, it's pretty clear that you drown in more complex discussions.

So, still nothing on those reasons why 5G is going to kill us all then?

[Pothole]

jurbie said:

Percy Spencer is the chap to speak to about that though.

His cousin Pearly was quite something in his day, I hear.

[Bullitt Five-Oh]

deckster said:

Bullitt Five-Oh said:

I think that you should practice simplicity, it's pretty clear that you drown in more complex discussions.

So, still nothing on those reasons why 5G is going to kill us all then?

As I said earlier, I need some time man. I'm at the "research" stage at the moment. Which university did you attend to gain your PhD in wave propagation?