Weapons-grade home WiFi suggestions

[otolith]

I put in Orbi. Works really well, though I ended up putting both units on the same floor - it would appear that the roof of the ground floor extension is more permeable to wifi than the walls.

[dmsims]

ffc said:

I am unsure why a controller based system such as the UniFi set-up will be worse at handoff than a mesh system?

Not quite certain about the question but roaming is a bh

Standards got implemented - 802.11 k/r/v

Unifi does not adhere to any of those and sometimes a packet trace is the only thing that will tell you what is actually happening

[ging84]

Unifi had 'zero handoff' which was thier own system that did not require client support, but had seemingly random support on the access point versions with little in the way of documentation , and all access points had to support it for you to be able to use it.
Fast roaming was thier attempt at 802.11 r which sort of works but seems to suffer the exact same problem of it being very difficult to find out if a specific access point supports it.

[ffc]

dmsims said:

Not quite certain about the question but roaming is a bh

Standards got implemented - 802.11 k/r/v

Unifi does not adhere to any of those and sometimes a packet trace is the only thing that will tell you what is actually happening

The unifi logs will tell you that roaming is happening between AP's, see below for an example. It works seamlessly here:

[2018-12-27 18:32:17,988] <inform_stat-7> INFO event - [event] User[74:b5:87:xx:xx:xx] roams from AP[f0:9f:c2:xx:xx:xx] to AP[78:8a:20:xx:xx:xx] from "channel 44(na)" to "channel 36(na)" on "MYSSID"

Unifi does have a 'fast roaming" setting but it broke stuff when I tried it.

[DoubleSix]

rsbmw said:

My wifi has been rock solid since moving to Orbi a couple of years ago. I chose it over the competition because I can hard wire the PC to the repeater for WoL purposes, I don't think the competition (Google etc) offered that at the time.

At home I had previously used a variety, including Ubiquiti, without a great deal of success.

I have extensive experience in enterprise WiFi, having PoC'd and subsequently implemented solutions with thousands of access points over hundreds of sites, and I still think for home use Orbi is brilliant.

You’ve always been able to do with Google Wifi too. Agree that Orbi are indeed excellent!

[a7x88]

ffc said:

I am unsure why a controller based system such as the UniFi set-up will be worse at handoff than a mesh system?

It's not. People are confusing a Wireless mesh network, a managed wireless network and an autonomous style network

Mesh network is managed but features at least some wireless backhaul (i.e. Access points that communicate back to the LAN via wireless instead of hardwired)

A managed WLAN - this is where a controller manages clients and access points to help ensure optimum performance - i.e. managing handoffs between APs and clients etc. Obviously here if all your APs are hardwired you will get best performance as no wireless bandwidth is being consumed by a Mesh's need for wireless backhaul.

I'm guessing you are running an autonomous style network where you have set two wireless access devices (routers/AP's etc) to the same SSID and password however they don't speak to each other - autonomous. In this instance where they are unmanaged there is no controller seeing that the client has a stronger signal from the other AP so the handoff process is not taking place (Google 802.11r if you want to understand the handoff process). As mobile devices are typically very "sticky" clients they will cling onto the connected access point for as long as possible (unless something like 802.11r gives them a hug and tells them it's ok to move to the other AP). When you turn WiFi on and off it will just pick up the strongest signal and jump into that - which is what you are seeing.

In summary

Managed WLAN - what you want
Mesh - a managed WLAN with wireless backhaul to save cables, at the expense of outright performance
Autonomous - bit of a bodge in reality but can solve certain use cases

Edited by a7x88 on Thursday 3rd January 00:03

[AJB88]

Just got a 2nd hand Google Wifi set up cheap, piece of p155 to set up, literally plug it into EE router, disable wifi on EE router and follow the set up on app.

Has been working fine since installing, signal around the house is a lot stronger now. No the cheapest option but works well with the rest of my Google/Nest kit.

[dmsims]

a7x88 said:

Obviously here if all your APs are hardwired you will get best performance as no wireless bandwidth is being consumed by a Mesh's need for wireless backhaul.

No absolutely not obvious and not always true

[a7x88]

dmsims said:

No absolutely not obvious and not always true

I disagree - It was a bit of a generalisation, but in the vast majority of cases a decent (as in standard GbE) copper backhaul will outperform a wireless backhaul. Latency, less chance of bottleneck (remember all Mesh AP traffic coming off and going to the WLAN goes through the/a root AP), reduced wireless contention to name a few.

Mesh WLAN is great but it's not a performance orientated design - it has other features which make it vastly more appealing for some use cases though.

Now if you are comparing a decent mesh system to some AP's with a backhaul via some crappy power line adapters or some old 10/100mb ethernet then I'd be inclined to agree!

[dmsims]

a7x88 said:

I disagree - It was a bit of a generalisation, but in the vast majority of cases a decent (as in standard GbE) copper backhaul will outperform a wireless backhaul. Latency, less chance of bottleneck (remember all Mesh AP traffic coming off and going to the WLAN goes through the/a root AP), reduced wireless contention to name a few.

Mesh WLAN is great but it's not a performance orientated design - it has other features which make it vastly more appealing for some use cases though.

Now if you are comparing a decent mesh system to some AP's with a backhaul via some crappy power line adapters or some old 10/100mb ethernet then I'd be inclined to agree!

Yes you make some valid points but in 99.999% of cases in this scenario they simply don't matter

Okay let's do the comparison for the UAC pro hardwired (touted in this thread) vesus Orbi

Which will win ?

[DoubleSix]

AJB88 said:

Just got a 2nd hand Google Wifi set up cheap, piece of p155 to set up, literally plug it into EE router, disable wifi on EE router and follow the set up on app.

Has been working fine since installing, signal around the house is a lot stronger now. No the cheapest option but works well with the rest of my Google/Nest kit.

It’s a great user experience isn’t it? Fab software and app - which is what the market has been crying out for, gone are the days of frustrating WiFi!

[ffc]

dmsims said:

a7x88 said:

Obviously here if all your APs are hardwired you will get best performance as no wireless bandwidth is being consumed by a Mesh's need for wireless backhaul.

No absolutely not obvious and not always true

I'm puzzled by this. In a controller based system if each AP is backhauled to a switch over 1 or more 1Gb links then radio traffic is only between client and AP. With a mesh system radio traffic runs between client an d AP and AP and AP. Given that radio traffic is contended how would you get better performance from a mesh set-up than controller based, wired AP's?

[dmsims]

ffc said:

I'm puzzled by this. In a controller based system if each AP is backhauled to a switch over 1 or more 1Gb links then radio traffic is only between client and AP. With a mesh system radio traffic runs between client an d AP and AP and AP. Given that radio traffic is contended how would you get better performance from a mesh set-up than controller based, wired AP's?

As I said it's not always the case but given some of the nonsense spouted about Unifi

Orbi Vs Unifi Ac pro - where are you going to put your money ?

[ffc]

dmsims said:

As I said it's not always the case but given some of the nonsense spouted about Unifi

Orbi Vs Unifi Ac pro - where are you going to put your money ?

I already put my money on Unifi and it's fine here. But my house is wired for ethernet which makes it an easy decision, 1gb or more backhaul over cable is better than backhaul over wifi unless I have missed something. If you don't want the pain of running data cable around your house I'm sure one of the better mesh systems will be fine.

[Bikerjon]

I'd go for AC Pro's over Orbi all day long if I had ethernet installed too. Orbi's are OK, but the setup process isn't great and I've never understood why they take such a long time to boot. Trying to position Orbi's for the best signal coverage is tedious to say the least!

[a7x88]

dmsims said:

Yes you make some valid points but in 99.999% of cases in this scenario they simply don't matter

Okay let's do the comparison for the UAC pro hardwired (touted in this thread) vesus Orbi

Which will win ?

I don't know anything about either so just had a quick read. Headline figures an Orbi has a backhaul of 1.7GBps so theoretically could be faster between two clients on two different AP's. Real world you will never see that (typically 50 - 60%) but lets assume you do and give it a win.

In any other scenario testing a single client to a LAN or WAN device they will be equal - both are capped by the 1GbE copper link from the root device. Every subsequent mesh AP you add to the orbi also has to share that 1.7GbE backhaul as opposed to getting its own dedicated 1GbE wired backhaul. Wired AP's backhaul will not be impacted by wireless congestion, will have lower latency and in the real world better throughput - lets be honest no one is parking two AP's next to each other to achieve the theoretical 1.7Gbps - I'd be surprised if you saw more than 500Mb between them in the real world.
In fact - a quick google shows most real world tests suggest achieving greater than 400Mb is a challenge - . A decent hardwired option would easily eclipse that (I see 930mb sustained on iperf for my own - Cisco 3802i AP's (I'm not using the 5Gbase-T backhaul capability just standard 1GbE hence the cap), slightly unfair though as they are enterprise gear).

Orbi works and will be great for most homes - its not Weapons Grade though as its still compromising for ease of installation

[dmsims]

Nope, not even close

You have completely missed out some salient points

AC pro cannot do higher than 80Ghz, wonder what that limits throughput to ?

AC pro 2.4Ghz performance is fairly poor

These are the real rate limiting factors (for Wifi)

But in a domestic situation where the internet is measured in 10's of Mbit's coverage is king

[a7x88]

dmsims said:

Nope, not even close

You have completely missed out some salient points

AC pro cannot do higher than 80Ghz, wonder what that limits throughput to ?

AC pro 2.4Ghz performance is fairly poor

These are the real rate limiting factors (for Wifi)

But in a domestic situation where the internet is measured in 10's of Mbit's coverage is king

lol ok.

Assume you mean 80Mhz not Ghz?

UAC-AC-PRO can do 1300mbps theoretical so down from your 1766 theoretical?

-
Edit - proper info on orbi is scarce but smallnetbuilder seems to suggest it's only the backhaul operating at quad stream 1733 - client side radios are actually 866 so lower than than AC-PRO?

You can also see a true test if the pure backhaul capability here - they managed a max of 528mbps under better conditions than you'll ever see in the real world

https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-...
-


I think you are somewhat missing the point. The debate is around wether a wireless backhaul is better than a wired backhaul. Instead you are comparing wether one devices client wireless link speed is better than another devices client wireless link speed - when they are not even the same standard? I mean you win the internet points.

Pick a UAC-HD if you want like for like on the client side? Or why not scrap that and run a comparison of Orbi using wireless backhaul vs wired backhaul (if it can?) - surely that would be the best comparison? where would your money go then?

However I think if you are measuring your internet speed in 10's of Mbit then its a bit of a moot point anyway.

Edited by a7x88 on Thursday 3rd January 19:48

Edited by a7x88 on Thursday 3rd January 19:55

Edited by a7x88 on Thursday 3rd January 20:09

[DuckSauce]

Can you mix mesh systems? I have 2 Google WiFi points as my mesh setup. I've turned WiFi off on the sky router and only use the Google mesh. Could I use those and add another device, for example an Orbi?

[a7x88]

Highly doubtful - most use their own proprietary management so won't be able to control each other