(Gradually) going 'off grid'?
Discussion
RSTurboPaul said:
And this is why I don't use Google or Facebook... 
I signed up for a google account many years ago but never ever logged in. Always deleted cookies and now have a few apps that scrub the place up and block stuff. I tried the Google Takeout service and it took three days for them to come back and fortunately, nothing. I take that as I had never logged in to use their services. That doesn't mean they still don't track me as a non logged in as you go from site to site.Facebook I never used The T+C are obvious (apart from so long which is a giveaway). But their other services WhatsApp, snapchat or whatever, read those T+C and would people use them? Sign up for WhatsApp and they have your contacts from day one as you give them access. But somewhere through all that, I will be on someones phone and they will have some visibility of my as a data point. Hence I use the blockers for the 1400+ domains. Just don't see why I should make it easy for Zuckerberg especially they he is working towards giving access to your data for politicians to screw around with.
Google slightly different but working on their block list.
Zirconia said:
rdjohn said:
I have used Gmail and Browser since about 2002 and Gmaps since it became available. Yet it astounds me just how little Google really know about me.
For example, I have been retired for 15-years yet I keep being asked why I have not set a work place so they can inform me about my commute time. I tried Google Music for the 3-month trial, but it never got anywhere near to selecting tracks that I might prefer to listen to.
I can honestly say that no online advertising has ever made me change my decision making, but the crudeness of their targeting must give poor results for their customers.
I tend to search and then buy, but 3-months later can still be getting pop ups for the product that I now own. I do now use Brave to reduce this annoyance. I do not use Facebook.
I appreciate that Langley and GCHQ could scan my personal stuff, but as I have a very clear conscience, then I have absolutely no concerns with that.
However, the usefulness of Google’s online services is fantastic. I regard my Android phone as equivalent to an electronic Swiss Army knife.
Have you tried the Google takeout? Think that is what it is called. Lists all that they have on you if you sign in to an account and use maps etc.For example, I have been retired for 15-years yet I keep being asked why I have not set a work place so they can inform me about my commute time. I tried Google Music for the 3-month trial, but it never got anywhere near to selecting tracks that I might prefer to listen to.
I can honestly say that no online advertising has ever made me change my decision making, but the crudeness of their targeting must give poor results for their customers.
I tend to search and then buy, but 3-months later can still be getting pop ups for the product that I now own. I do now use Brave to reduce this annoyance. I do not use Facebook.
I appreciate that Langley and GCHQ could scan my personal stuff, but as I have a very clear conscience, then I have absolutely no concerns with that.
However, the usefulness of Google’s online services is fantastic. I regard my Android phone as equivalent to an electronic Swiss Army knife.
Edit
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar...
The point I was making is that I do not care and that owning it has not helped them influence any decision that I have made and so offers very poor value to their paying customers.
But I do find that the “free” Apps that they provide me with are useful, and not worth me cutting my ties with them.
I know a little about current targeting practices, and read a lot more. There's no doubt whatsoever that the more a company knows about you, the greater its influence. This is not necessarily bad of course, any more than advertising in papers, TV etc are a negative factor. Indeed, in some studies, the suggestion is that posters lighten an area and make it more interesting.
However, and it is a big however, advertising works. What's more, it works on everyone, including those like me who used to work in advertising and, to a limited extend, still do. It's a bit like osmosis; it seeps in whatever barrier you put up.
It can be combated but only to a limited extent. The first step is to accept that you are just like everyone else and will react to advertising. Going off-grid will help to an extent as the powerful data-led descriptions of you will not be as detailed as that for most people. You still will, of course, be subjected to advertising, but it will not be as effective in general. Targeting is the key to advertising's success.
Everyone can be manipulated, be it via a company, friends, media or politicians. Not only that, your decisions have been manipulated, and the biggest problem for the individual is that they don't know why. Sometimes, even if they do know why, they will ignore it and go with the flow.
Some won't buy Skoda, preferring VW. You can point out that they are at least very similar and many bits are made in the same factory. But not a Skoda. So why don't they buy one? I know it is all about image, and advertising is all about manipulating image. I know this, but there's no way I'll buy a Skoda.
If you think you are not affected by advertising then you are leaving yourself vulnerable. It has got you. It will get you. It is the most insidious of data-led mechanisms. The more data a company has, the more it is worth. That's for a reason.
Should you be afraid? Let's ask it another way. Should you be afraid that vast international companies, who are subservient to no one, have more information on you than anyone else has throughout history.
However, and it is a big however, advertising works. What's more, it works on everyone, including those like me who used to work in advertising and, to a limited extend, still do. It's a bit like osmosis; it seeps in whatever barrier you put up.
It can be combated but only to a limited extent. The first step is to accept that you are just like everyone else and will react to advertising. Going off-grid will help to an extent as the powerful data-led descriptions of you will not be as detailed as that for most people. You still will, of course, be subjected to advertising, but it will not be as effective in general. Targeting is the key to advertising's success.
Everyone can be manipulated, be it via a company, friends, media or politicians. Not only that, your decisions have been manipulated, and the biggest problem for the individual is that they don't know why. Sometimes, even if they do know why, they will ignore it and go with the flow.
Some won't buy Skoda, preferring VW. You can point out that they are at least very similar and many bits are made in the same factory. But not a Skoda. So why don't they buy one? I know it is all about image, and advertising is all about manipulating image. I know this, but there's no way I'll buy a Skoda.
If you think you are not affected by advertising then you are leaving yourself vulnerable. It has got you. It will get you. It is the most insidious of data-led mechanisms. The more data a company has, the more it is worth. That's for a reason.
Should you be afraid? Let's ask it another way. Should you be afraid that vast international companies, who are subservient to no one, have more information on you than anyone else has throughout history.
I just don't want to make it easy. I accept I will still be targeted and affected but it gives me something to do in the winter, don't see why they should get a free ride.
One big plus with the ads getting blocked, my browser is less claggy given it is getting on a tad (the hardware it is running on that is).
One big plus with the ads getting blocked, my browser is less claggy given it is getting on a tad (the hardware it is running on that is).
durbster said:
Captain Raymond Holt said:
Protonmail - I can see a few recommendations, what are the big positives for those of you that use it?
cheers
There's a vast amount of information in your emails. All your purchases, your travel arrangements, every website you've signed up with, not to mention personal conversations with family and friends etc. cheers
It's mainly the assurance that that information is not being read and used to insert you into various advertising demographics or being sold on to whoever.
Generally it all works as any other email provider but I have been caught out by one downside - because Protonmail can't read the contents of your emails, the search feature can't read them either so digging out those long lost emails can be tricky.
One day, I had an email saying 'welcome to Facebook, click here if you didn't sign up'. I ignored it because I wondered if it might be spam, and even if it wasn't, I thought they might be fishing for a response either way.
A couple of days later, friend requests arrived from people I know - one of which I had never emailed from that account.
I tried to click on the 'cancel this request' button but apparently I had no profile on FB - but yet I had the emails come through...
It's almost as if Hotmail were allowing Facebook access to people's email, in order to increase FB's reach and seek out information on who I knew.
Not impressed.
Zirconia said:
I just don't want to make it easy. I accept I will still be targeted and affected but it gives me something to do in the winter, don't see why they should get a free ride.
One big plus with the ads getting blocked, my browser is less claggy given it is getting on a tad (the hardware it is running on that is).
I'm with you. I fully agree with not making it easy for them.One big plus with the ads getting blocked, my browser is less claggy given it is getting on a tad (the hardware it is running on that is).
The problem is that merely not paying attention to the damn ads only dilutes their immediate effectiveness.
RSTurboPaul said:
I have used Hotmail but am anti-Facebook.
One day, I had an email saying 'welcome to Facebook, click here if you didn't sign up'. I ignored it because I wondered if it might be spam, and even if it wasn't, I thought they might be fishing for a response either way.
A couple of days later, friend requests arrived from people I know - one of which I had never emailed from that account.
I tried to click on the 'cancel this request' button but apparently I had no profile on FB - but yet I had the emails come through...
It's almost as if Hotmail were allowing Facebook access to people's email, in order to increase FB's reach and seek out information on who I knew.
Not impressed.
Facebook can/do create a shadow identity/profile for you based on what they see you doing on the web, which they can track through the information they have from non-Facebook websites. For example, any website with a Facebook "Like" button or Login button. I learned of this recently when I installed my pihole (thanks to the thread on here) and was looking into the benefits of blocking this type of tracking.One day, I had an email saying 'welcome to Facebook, click here if you didn't sign up'. I ignored it because I wondered if it might be spam, and even if it wasn't, I thought they might be fishing for a response either way.
A couple of days later, friend requests arrived from people I know - one of which I had never emailed from that account.
I tried to click on the 'cancel this request' button but apparently I had no profile on FB - but yet I had the emails come through...
It's almost as if Hotmail were allowing Facebook access to people's email, in order to increase FB's reach and seek out information on who I knew.
Not impressed.
I'm not particularly worried about privacy but it is nice to know I have blocked this type of stuff with the pihole and in doing so, reduced my internet traffic on my home network by 50%.
I’ll take a slightly opposing view to all this.
I don’t think their capabilities are nearly as good as everyone thinks they are, and it is simply down to “signal to noise” in the data. I work in the technology business, I know about data etc... but it is the use of the data that is the hard bit.
Simple example. I have too much stuff, so I bought some shipping containers to stick in the garden (nicely hidden etc). To do the research + purchase, I used Google, Chrome and Gmail. So Google “knows” I have searched for shipping containers, bought several, good spec, ply lined etc. Now, what do people need when they’ve bought a container? Shelves, racking, lighting, ramps, dehumidifiers. Actually I don’t need a dehumidifier because they are properly insulated.
Did I get any adverts for the products I actually needed? Of course not. All I got for a month afterwards was adverts for more shipping containers. Don’t need shipping containers, I’ve already bought three. Loads of data - no intelligence.
If I think about the entirety of Google’s knowledge about me, they would see a bloke who spends far too much on tools and Alfa parts. Where do I get recommendations from? Forums in the main - I see things being used in car restoration, and think “that looks good”. (Recent finds: Scangrip SPS floodlights, recommended, and a pipe swager for fuel lines from Grahamtool in California). Do I ever see adverts for stuff like this? Never.
I don’t think their capabilities are nearly as good as everyone thinks they are, and it is simply down to “signal to noise” in the data. I work in the technology business, I know about data etc... but it is the use of the data that is the hard bit.
Simple example. I have too much stuff, so I bought some shipping containers to stick in the garden (nicely hidden etc). To do the research + purchase, I used Google, Chrome and Gmail. So Google “knows” I have searched for shipping containers, bought several, good spec, ply lined etc. Now, what do people need when they’ve bought a container? Shelves, racking, lighting, ramps, dehumidifiers. Actually I don’t need a dehumidifier because they are properly insulated.
Did I get any adverts for the products I actually needed? Of course not. All I got for a month afterwards was adverts for more shipping containers. Don’t need shipping containers, I’ve already bought three. Loads of data - no intelligence.
If I think about the entirety of Google’s knowledge about me, they would see a bloke who spends far too much on tools and Alfa parts. Where do I get recommendations from? Forums in the main - I see things being used in car restoration, and think “that looks good”. (Recent finds: Scangrip SPS floodlights, recommended, and a pipe swager for fuel lines from Grahamtool in California). Do I ever see adverts for stuff like this? Never.
Edited by rxe on Tuesday 3rd March 10:53
There is enough in big data for the likes of Cambridge Analytica (whatever they are now) and AIQ etc. to absolutely cream it from the large political organisations around the world and political parties to spends millions through the use of that data. I don't think it relies on you buy your next best pair of shoes as a sole use.
99% of it is people who liked a Trump tweet.
Of course they bang on about their complex algorithms, but the reality is that getting a list of people who've overtly sworn their political allegiance costs money. if you go onto FaceTwitter and say you like xxxx then you're going to get targeted - that's the whole point of likes.
Search history and gmail seem to be a very poor seam of data in my experience.
Of course they bang on about their complex algorithms, but the reality is that getting a list of people who've overtly sworn their political allegiance costs money. if you go onto FaceTwitter and say you like xxxx then you're going to get targeted - that's the whole point of likes.
Search history and gmail seem to be a very poor seam of data in my experience.
rxe said:
Did I get any adverts for the products I actually needed? Of course not. All I got for a month afterwards was adverts for more shipping containers. Don’t need shipping containers, I’ve already bought three. Loads of data - no intelligence.
I have the same. Search for a camera, buy a camera, then a month of camera adverts, rather than adverts for memory cards, bangs, flashes, or even photo printing services.I would imagine Amazon and eBay have a gold mine of data here. I'm sure they could start targeted advertising on what previous customers of a product bought several weeks/months/years later.
I haven't seen adverts on PC/Android for a long, long time - I mentioned previously what I use on the PC, U Block Origin add on on Firefox takes cares of that along with other add ons. On Android I use Opera browser which has built in ad blocking, Blokada which is a system wide ad blocker, and Vanced YouTube which is ad free YouTube.
I bought an old Raspberry Pi2 cheap a couple of months ago with the intention to create a pihole but haven't gotten around to it yet.
I bought an old Raspberry Pi2 cheap a couple of months ago with the intention to create a pihole but haven't gotten around to it yet.
rxe said:
I’ll take a slightly opposing view to all this.
I don’t think their capabilities are nearly as good as everyone thinks they are, and it is simply down to “signal to noise” in the data. I work in the technology business, I know about data etc... but it is the use of the data that is the hard bit.
Selling us the right or wrong tat is not really a big concern. I wasn't ever too fussed about that and, in theory, targeted ads should actually be useful to us.I don’t think their capabilities are nearly as good as everyone thinks they are, and it is simply down to “signal to noise” in the data. I work in the technology business, I know about data etc... but it is the use of the data that is the hard bit.
I'm more concerned about the fact that, due to the way people get their news these days, some tech bros in California can decide what political messages the British electorate receives. And as Derek says, we're all vulnerable to being manipulated.
On top of that, their president has aspirations of authoritarianism.
Edited by durbster on Tuesday 3rd March 20:13
Derek Smith said:
Google transferring all their data to the USA, the suggestion being it is a post brexit response.
The protection levels in America are poor, and certainly there's nothing that comes near to the GDPR.
Saw that the other week, wondered where all the Google account holder in the UK would sit with this. Probably not raise an eyebrow as long as waze works . I understand the issue is the UK wanting to re do everything because brexit has nothing to replace GDPR at the moment and they are pre tempting it.The protection levels in America are poor, and certainly there's nothing that comes near to the GDPR.
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