any 3D experts here?, building a large cityscape
Discussion
I am looking to create a drivable map of a cityscape where the user can navigate down roads and side streets. Ideally I would like to able to add streets as I go along (over a long timeframe), and eventually build up a large navigable city, for example the size of London or New York. This project is not planned as a game, just something that a child can drive a bus around. The only programming aspect would be the need for the Bus to register when it has arrived at a stop. Because this project will be based on real roads, I need something that can deal with inclines, hills and gradients, and not blocky steps (ala Doom, etc). The graphics need not be state-of-the art with fancy light rendering, etc. Graphic detail is not as important as the roads being driveable in a real-world way. ie, not driving through buildings.
I am a complete and utter novice at this, but do have 2D graphics experience. I would appreciate it if anyone can spare the time to give some broad step guidance on how to go about this type of project, and if at all it can be done. What are the general process steps to producing roads and buildings? What software would I best be using, for buildings facades, roads, and what would I use to make it all run?
I am a complete and utter novice at this, but do have 2D graphics experience. I would appreciate it if anyone can spare the time to give some broad step guidance on how to go about this type of project, and if at all it can be done. What are the general process steps to producing roads and buildings? What software would I best be using, for buildings facades, roads, and what would I use to make it all run?
police state said:
What are the general process steps to producing roads and buildings? What software would I best be using, for buildings facades, roads, and what would I use to make it all run?
A Cray supercomputer for starters, or a few hundred Apple Xserves in a cluster node!
You do realise what you're asking for?
What level of rendering do you want or expect this is have? Colour realism or grey shapes?
The amount of hours that would be required to CAD this is colossal, never mind the power needed to render each frame in real time, which is what you're looking for, is it not?
I presume you've seen the programs on TV that show computer simulated shopping malls and whatnot, and that's only one building walk-through?
It could be done - but you better have a personal fortune equal to that of Sir Richard Branson or Sir Alan Sugar to make it happen. Oh, and 6-12 months development.
PJ S said:
police state said:
What are the general process steps to producing roads and buildings? What software would I best be using, for buildings facades, roads, and what would I use to make it all run?
A Cray supercomputer for starters, or a few hundred Apple Xserves in a cluster node!
You do realise what you're asking for?
What level of rendering do you want or expect this is have? Colour realism or grey shapes?
The amount of hours that would be required to CAD this is colossal, never mind the power needed to render each frame in real time, which is what you're looking for, is it not?
I presume you've seen the programs on TV that show computer simulated shopping malls and whatnot, and that's only one building walk-through?
It could be done - but you better have a personal fortune equal to that of Sir Richard Branson or Sir Alan Sugar to make it happen. Oh, and 6-12 months development.
What I'm asking for is probably not quite what you imagine. In terms of detail, basic blocks and polygons will do for now, I can add the bitmap facades over time. I don't need any walkthroughs of buildings. Have you ever played GTR or another racegame and driven the ring, or monaco?, that's the level (or less) i'm looking for. just lots of streets 'track'with empty building facades.
I suspect this guy did something similar, albeit on a smaller scale to what I have in mind without some of the caveats that you suggest
www.hitchin-circuit.co.uk/what%20is.html
has anyone else got any suggestions?
Have a look at www.racer.nl - there are quite flexible car and track designers for that. Dunno what the max map size is but I've seen some pretty big maps!
police state said:
PJ S said:
police state said:
What are the general process steps to producing roads and buildings? What software would I best be using, for buildings facades, roads, and what would I use to make it all run?
A Cray supercomputer for starters, or a few hundred Apple Xserves in a cluster node!
You do realise what you're asking for?
What level of rendering do you want or expect this is have? Colour realism or grey shapes?
The amount of hours that would be required to CAD this is colossal, never mind the power needed to render each frame in real time, which is what you're looking for, is it not?
I presume you've seen the programs on TV that show computer simulated shopping malls and whatnot, and that's only one building walk-through?
It could be done - but you better have a personal fortune equal to that of Sir Richard Branson or Sir Alan Sugar to make it happen. Oh, and 6-12 months development.
What I'm asking for is probably not quite what you imagine. In terms of detail, basic blocks and polygons will do for now, I can add the bitmap facades over time. I don't need any walkthroughs of buildings. Have you ever played GTR or another racegame and driven the ring, or monaco?, that's the level (or less) i'm looking for. just lots of streets 'track'with empty building facades.
I suspect this guy did something similar, albeit on a smaller scale to what I have in mind without some of the caveats that you suggest
www.hitchin-circuit.co.uk/what%20is.html
has anyone else got any suggestions?
Ah......I geddit now. I had thoughts of grandeur and high resolution when I read your post.
well, the (3D)data is available. I've used a company that provided a corrected lidar 3D model of a site I was working on. It was only 1km square but was reasonably accurate.
I've also seen a model of London reaching as far as the M25.
It's a huge project, but not impossible. In fact, if you have the funds I would be willing to do the modelling. All you would then need is a games developer to do the clever stuff.
Mitch
I've also seen a model of London reaching as far as the M25.
It's a huge project, but not impossible. In fact, if you have the funds I would be willing to do the modelling. All you would then need is a games developer to do the clever stuff.
Mitch
mitchp said:
well, the (3D)data is available. I've used a company that provided a corrected lidar 3D model of a site I was working on. It was only 1km square but was reasonably accurate.
I've also seen a model of London reaching as far as the M25.
It's a huge project, but not impossible. In fact, if you have the funds I would be willing to do the modelling. All you would then need is a games developer to do the clever stuff.
Mitch
I've also seen a model of London reaching as far as the M25.
It's a huge project, but not impossible. In fact, if you have the funds I would be willing to do the modelling. All you would then need is a games developer to do the clever stuff.
Mitch
Hello Mitch,
thaks for the offer, but i don't want to turn this into a game as such, well at least not a commercial game. It's actually for a child with quite severe learning difficulties. The idea came from him saying that when he 'grows up', he wants to be a bus driver. He plays GTR on the PC (and is very good at it...), One day i was talking to him about how good he was at doing all the right things on GTR, Braking, racing line, etc, and he said it was ok, but what he really wanted was a 'game' in which he could drive a bus around London with all the correct streets in all the correct places (he's obsessed with accuracy), and would I get one for him.
So I looked around, couldn't find anything, and thought about making something for him. That's the main reason, and for my part, I thought it would be an interesting thing to do. My opening post was to find out if anyone knew any shortcuts in terms of what software to use, and which software NOT to use. I saw this as a longish term project (he's young, and he's not growing up fast...). My initial plan was to map out all the streets and render simple roads, get them into a 3d engine and see if I could get a vehicle to drive around. The second part would be adding the buildings, in terms of realism, they don't have to be realistic, just as long as they are roughly the correct size and proportions.
I've spent some time looking at umpteen different software offerings, and they all talk their products up, never answer specific email enquiries. A number of them are more than capable for doing what I want, but I was hoping for guidence on what the best choice was, and why. Ideally, I wouldn't have to get into heavy programming, just drawing lots, and lots of roads in top down view.
anyone into this kind thing?
One option: Drive around London with a laptop and GPS receiver in it and trace all the roads out
Another option: use all the data that the likes of Google/Microsoft/etc. have for road plans. Overlaying *overhead* photography is pretty easy (even if that won't QUITE tie up to the roads from similar systems due to slight discrepancies).
Topological data at that level will be massively difficult to come by, though. I've got a full set of UK topology (and aerial photography) spanning *many* CDs. But try laying it "flat" to drive through it and you'll see that the height readings are only about one every couple of dozen metres at best; OK for hills, lousy for cities. If you have a play with Google Earth and try laying it "flat", you'll see what I mean (with the exception of one or two places - Everest, for instance)
Getting a map of the whole of the City entered (let alone the whole of London) would be a gargantuan task if you included anything vaguely resembling realistic textures. Or even just the building outlines.
The only thing coming close to this I can think of is the things I've seen Microsoft/Amazon do in their future technology demos - driving a car down a street not just with GPS, but also with a video camera, so you can tie up the "view" to the location. Not great for a "game" if you want to be able to turn left/right anywhere on a whim (or most corners, for that matter!)
Another option: use all the data that the likes of Google/Microsoft/etc. have for road plans. Overlaying *overhead* photography is pretty easy (even if that won't QUITE tie up to the roads from similar systems due to slight discrepancies).
Topological data at that level will be massively difficult to come by, though. I've got a full set of UK topology (and aerial photography) spanning *many* CDs. But try laying it "flat" to drive through it and you'll see that the height readings are only about one every couple of dozen metres at best; OK for hills, lousy for cities. If you have a play with Google Earth and try laying it "flat", you'll see what I mean (with the exception of one or two places - Everest, for instance)
Getting a map of the whole of the City entered (let alone the whole of London) would be a gargantuan task if you included anything vaguely resembling realistic textures. Or even just the building outlines.
The only thing coming close to this I can think of is the things I've seen Microsoft/Amazon do in their future technology demos - driving a car down a street not just with GPS, but also with a video camera, so you can tie up the "view" to the location. Not great for a "game" if you want to be able to turn left/right anywhere on a whim (or most corners, for that matter!)
Sounds like you're trying to develop a basic game. Even though you're saying 'its not for a game', all the elements - driving sim, collision detection, event detection etc etc point to what you'd need for a prototype game. Not to mention the task of modelling the landscape. No mean feat to create.
However, you could circumvent a lot of effort here. There is a game out called ARMA armed assault. Its a war game but don't let that put you off. It has an extremely flexible mission editor. Using this, you could I guess, create a mission with only your character and a bus (there is a bus rendered already). You could then create a mission where you drive around the absolutely massive landscape that includes towns, villages, city type things, farms, forests, hills, mountains, fields, beaches, everything - even birds & insects - you can include waypoints you have to go to (ie. your bustops) with events that could be triggered. It even has day & night and weather effects if you want. And the driving isn't too bad either for a non-driving sim. I would imagine this is one of the easiest options. The game is new & may have fairly high gfx requirements unless you turn all the detail down, but i guess that would be fine for you. Besides, with it selling for about 20 quid, you could try it & flog it if no good.
www.armedassault.com/
here's the forums
www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard311/ikonboard.cgi?s=2807d310159cb96a16694995ec2d7bdf;act=SC;c=14
and mission editing specific
www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard311/ikonboard.cgi?s=213edc04c958d7353b62b2de857cc7d6;act=SF;f=71
You could try posting there and asking for some help.
You could even do a psychotic bus version where everyone has guns
Or I'll write you the gfx engine & do the mapping for 100 grand
However, you could circumvent a lot of effort here. There is a game out called ARMA armed assault. Its a war game but don't let that put you off. It has an extremely flexible mission editor. Using this, you could I guess, create a mission with only your character and a bus (there is a bus rendered already). You could then create a mission where you drive around the absolutely massive landscape that includes towns, villages, city type things, farms, forests, hills, mountains, fields, beaches, everything - even birds & insects - you can include waypoints you have to go to (ie. your bustops) with events that could be triggered. It even has day & night and weather effects if you want. And the driving isn't too bad either for a non-driving sim. I would imagine this is one of the easiest options. The game is new & may have fairly high gfx requirements unless you turn all the detail down, but i guess that would be fine for you. Besides, with it selling for about 20 quid, you could try it & flog it if no good.
www.armedassault.com/
here's the forums
www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard311/ikonboard.cgi?s=2807d310159cb96a16694995ec2d7bdf;act=SC;c=14
and mission editing specific
www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard311/ikonboard.cgi?s=213edc04c958d7353b62b2de857cc7d6;act=SF;f=71
You could try posting there and asking for some help.
You could even do a psychotic bus version where everyone has guns
Or I'll write you the gfx engine & do the mapping for 100 grand
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