New Desktop/Games machine - Mac vs Xp vs Vista
Discussion
Ok folks, I need people to help make my mind up. Here's the story.
I am an old PC gamer. I love C&C, GT Legends, GTA, Battlefield nn etc etc. Like keyboards, steering wheels etc. I'm also play around with .Net development. My current Windows XP desktop machine is pretty much on it's knees and up for replacement.
So, what to replace it with.
I bought a MacBook Pro early this year and love it, it's now my main way of surfing, emailing, editing movies etc. I also quite like the .Mac idea and have an account set up.
So one option is Mac Pro.
FOR: Nice to use for daily tasks. Reliable. Growing technology area - interest, applications, games, windows emulation/support, web presence all going to grow exponentially over the next year or two. .Mac means I share bookmarks, email, files etc really easily between my machines (+ I suspect more when the next OS comes out). Can run windows on it (and support will get much better over time).
AGAINST: Got to wait for the next version as it's near replacement due. Expensive. Need to sort gaming (I suspect some quick rebooting type stuff will make it into next OS X but need to wait and see, parallels seem to be missing the mark at the moment). Lack of upgradability.
option 2: New windows box.
FOR: Relatively cheap (next to a Mac). Already invested in software. Will still have a windows machine in the house for stuff that just won't work in Parallels. Known environment (if I go XP). Possible new toys in Vista (after next service pack!). Can buy tomorrow. Longer life (more upgradability).
AGAINST: Fed Up With Windows Syndrome (is it just Mac is a new toy?). Use it every day at work, things really bug me with it now, but I know it backwards and can get round the back and sort most problems. Vista risky.
OK So I've been flip-flopping drastically over the last 3 months. This morning I got up and thought this is silly I've already got a Mac, just get a PC. But writing this email, I'm flipping back to the Mac as while not perfectly suited at this exact moment in time, it's going to get better and better over the next year or two.
HELP ME MAKE UP MY MIND !!
I am an old PC gamer. I love C&C, GT Legends, GTA, Battlefield nn etc etc. Like keyboards, steering wheels etc. I'm also play around with .Net development. My current Windows XP desktop machine is pretty much on it's knees and up for replacement.
So, what to replace it with.
I bought a MacBook Pro early this year and love it, it's now my main way of surfing, emailing, editing movies etc. I also quite like the .Mac idea and have an account set up.
So one option is Mac Pro.
FOR: Nice to use for daily tasks. Reliable. Growing technology area - interest, applications, games, windows emulation/support, web presence all going to grow exponentially over the next year or two. .Mac means I share bookmarks, email, files etc really easily between my machines (+ I suspect more when the next OS comes out). Can run windows on it (and support will get much better over time).
AGAINST: Got to wait for the next version as it's near replacement due. Expensive. Need to sort gaming (I suspect some quick rebooting type stuff will make it into next OS X but need to wait and see, parallels seem to be missing the mark at the moment). Lack of upgradability.
option 2: New windows box.
FOR: Relatively cheap (next to a Mac). Already invested in software. Will still have a windows machine in the house for stuff that just won't work in Parallels. Known environment (if I go XP). Possible new toys in Vista (after next service pack!). Can buy tomorrow. Longer life (more upgradability).
AGAINST: Fed Up With Windows Syndrome (is it just Mac is a new toy?). Use it every day at work, things really bug me with it now, but I know it backwards and can get round the back and sort most problems. Vista risky.
OK So I've been flip-flopping drastically over the last 3 months. This morning I got up and thought this is silly I've already got a Mac, just get a PC. But writing this email, I'm flipping back to the Mac as while not perfectly suited at this exact moment in time, it's going to get better and better over the next year or two.
HELP ME MAKE UP MY MIND !!
IMHO the Mac Pro really isn't at all built for gaming - the processors are over-specced and the graphics cards under-specced - so you'd end up shelling out more cash on top of the £1699 base price for a good graphics card.
A decent windows machine for gaming would be much cheaper... but still a fair whack of money.
Maybe not what you're wanting to hear at all, but if it were my cash, I'd just buy a current-generation console to take care of the gaming. I think current consoles have advanced to the point now where they really are better all-round platforms for gaming than PCs. You could probably get yourself a nice new LCD telly to play it on too from the change from the money you'd have to save up for a Mac Pro too...
And for .NET development, Mono's rather good on OS X now (combine it with TextMate for a very pretty, usable programming experience), or you can always dual-boot.
A decent windows machine for gaming would be much cheaper... but still a fair whack of money.
Maybe not what you're wanting to hear at all, but if it were my cash, I'd just buy a current-generation console to take care of the gaming. I think current consoles have advanced to the point now where they really are better all-round platforms for gaming than PCs. You could probably get yourself a nice new LCD telly to play it on too from the change from the money you'd have to save up for a Mac Pro too...
And for .NET development, Mono's rather good on OS X now (combine it with TextMate for a very pretty, usable programming experience), or you can always dual-boot.
GHW said:
IMHO the Mac Pro really isn't at all built for gaming - the processors are over-specced and the graphics cards under-specced - so you'd end up shelling out more cash on top of the £1699 base price for a good graphics card.
I was going to up to the X1900 or whatever it's called, and was assuming next gen due out will beef it up again. But agreed, for the money the windows kit will be much more gamer focussed.GHW said:
A decent windows machine for gaming would be much cheaper... but still a fair whack of money.
Hmmm, yes, just been speccing up (MESH, DELL, SCAN) and seem to regularly spec myself up to the 2k mark which is about what the apple would come in at.GHW said:
Maybe not what you're wanting to hear at all, but if it were my cash, I'd just buy a current-generation console to take care of the gaming.
Keep thinking of doing this, but I find console gaming much less err cerebral I suppose, more arcadey - I prefer a slower pace at my age. 
and I really hate the hand controllers compared to keyboard and mouse.GHW said:
And for .NET development, Mono's rather good on OS X now (combine it with TextMate for a very pretty, usable programming experience), or you can always dual-boot.
Agreed.LukeBird said:
ajg31 said:
Short answer from me would be Pc and XP. Vista is still not well optomised for alot of games
That's be exactly what I'd go for! If you can't hang off until the next revision of Pro's come out - Sept-Oct perhaps? - then go for the PC with 7900 or 8800, depending on game type and how long you plan on keeping it for.
My thinking is if not this coming revision, then the next one or two will see Apple introduce up-to-date graphic cards when the machines are released - but is dependant upon whether the gaming side is something they want to embrace or have feedback their machines are dual booted by a substantial contingent for gaming purposes. Otherwise, it'll be status quo.
It'll also be governed by the amount of OS X native games being released too - should be interesting to see how Cider progresses with their technology, but Apple need to do more Open GL development and updating, which may be forthcoming in Leopard later this year.
I don't think there will be a time when retrofitting will be an option, as that'd require Mac specific cards from nVidia since their standard ones wouldn't work, even with Mac drivers. The power supply requirements could also be the reason, not to mention the unsightly wiring for extra power if the motherboard doesn't provide enough, which goes against the Apple ethos of interior aesthetics.
My thinking is if not this coming revision, then the next one or two will see Apple introduce up-to-date graphic cards when the machines are released - but is dependant upon whether the gaming side is something they want to embrace or have feedback their machines are dual booted by a substantial contingent for gaming purposes. Otherwise, it'll be status quo.
It'll also be governed by the amount of OS X native games being released too - should be interesting to see how Cider progresses with their technology, but Apple need to do more Open GL development and updating, which may be forthcoming in Leopard later this year.
I don't think there will be a time when retrofitting will be an option, as that'd require Mac specific cards from nVidia since their standard ones wouldn't work, even with Mac drivers. The power supply requirements could also be the reason, not to mention the unsightly wiring for extra power if the motherboard doesn't provide enough, which goes against the Apple ethos of interior aesthetics.
Only possible if the drivers have been written for OS X. As of my knowledge, there are no drivers outside of those Apple themselves write, and it may be locked down to prevent the machine recognising another card other than those listed in the options list by Apple.
PSU issue is only currently an issue since the mo'bo won't (presumably) provide full power to the GC, since it's not been designed for it.
Some older PC mo'bos being the same, hence the reason for the power connector on the GC board to be powered directly from a spare output on the PSU, which you may have needed to upgrade too.
So, like you say, if (when?) nVidia get round to entertaining Apple with their 88/8900's for the right kind of money Apple'll pay, then you'll see a full blown multi-purpose machine.
Somehow I don't think Apple are really that fussed about making a current SOTA gaming machine - sufficient/good, yes, but not a must-have, and they may never actually since their research may indicate the %age of current users and those they may tempt away from Windows boxes is not worth the extra development and inventory costs associated with doing it.
Maybe nVidia have no inclination to play ball with Apple for numerous reasons - lack of games (current/popular), cost of hardware Apple want to pay, etc.
PSU issue is only currently an issue since the mo'bo won't (presumably) provide full power to the GC, since it's not been designed for it.
Some older PC mo'bos being the same, hence the reason for the power connector on the GC board to be powered directly from a spare output on the PSU, which you may have needed to upgrade too.
So, like you say, if (when?) nVidia get round to entertaining Apple with their 88/8900's for the right kind of money Apple'll pay, then you'll see a full blown multi-purpose machine.
Somehow I don't think Apple are really that fussed about making a current SOTA gaming machine - sufficient/good, yes, but not a must-have, and they may never actually since their research may indicate the %age of current users and those they may tempt away from Windows boxes is not worth the extra development and inventory costs associated with doing it.
Maybe nVidia have no inclination to play ball with Apple for numerous reasons - lack of games (current/popular), cost of hardware Apple want to pay, etc.
PJ S said:
It'll also be governed by the amount of OS X native games being released too - should be interesting to see how Cider progresses with their technology, but Apple need to do more Open GL development and updating, which may be forthcoming in Leopard later this year.
I wouldn't count on Cider to do jack personally. It's in effect Cegeda, formerly WineX and a fork of WINE from way back when. Transgaming aren't a big company and have had a pretty hard time staying ahead of the curve when it comes to keeping Cegeda worth the cash versus WINE (Wine had GLSL 4 months before the pay-per-view version and each release of Cegeda horribly breaks at least one 'compatible' game). For the technical minded, basically Transgaming are trying to convince people to compile in their version of winelib, nothing more. I'm afraid that for a fair few years the old equation of Games = Windows, will still be true; with WINE trailing behind a 'close' second of 'kinda almost working perfectly, but hey it fires up and I can shoot s
t'. And Cedega an expensive third place. It's perfectly legal to build Cedega from source without paying for a Transgaming subscription.
I note no one has suggested Linux. I wouldn't've myself if someone hadn't mentioned OS X. I play WoW, Call of Duty and UT2004 on my Vaio running Ubuntu. www.ubuntu.com
And you're right. Vista is neither optimised for gaming nor secure enough for the internet - nor useable enough for anyone not looking for premature baldness.
I note no one has suggested Linux. I wouldn't've myself if someone hadn't mentioned OS X. I play WoW, Call of Duty and UT2004 on my Vaio running Ubuntu. www.ubuntu.com
And you're right. Vista is neither optimised for gaming nor secure enough for the internet - nor useable enough for anyone not looking for premature baldness.
_Al said:
It's perfectly legal to build Cedega from source without paying for a Transgaming subscription.
Legal yes. Fully functional no. Worth the agro? Debatable. Transgaming's CVS is usually broken, very broken and the code they put in to it is minus all the closed source 'goodies' that should make Cedega better than WINE (copy protection handling for one, along with the MSVCRT code and such). When you take in to account WINE's rapid release cycle and the D3D/DX fixes appearing in every release (it'll officially do DX7 fully, with 8,9 & 10 being worked on).
Personally, I use Fiesty x86_64, play CnC3, Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2, Dawn Of War: Dark Crusade and several others. However I wouldn't recommend Linux for gaming if you're not a geek/nerd/whatever, as most of those games are not 'Platinum' they need some kicks in the right place to make work. And to be perfectly honest, when I compare CnC3 to native Windows... my god is it but ugly (due to shader limitations in WINE).
And yes I know NWN1 has a Linux native install, it doesn't want to work despite linking to /usr/lib32
Edited by ThePassenger on Saturday 21st July 16:15
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