Advise Needed Buying Alfa GTV or Fiat Cuope?
Discussion
I'm also a Fiat Coupe 20VT owner, and as above, would recommend a long visit to the www.fccuk.org owners club website. They have a useful buyers guide here - www.fccuk.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=256230&an=0&page=0#256230
I have owned my car for a year and a half and my father owned it for 3 years before me, and there isn't anything else i would consider changing it for at this moment. The Alfa is very nice, but your decision will probably come down to which one you prefer the styling of ultimately, as well as space in the back considerations.
I would suggest one of the later 20V NA cars ('99 or 00 model) for your budget, the Turbo may cause similar scary moments for your other half if she is very nervous (my GF won't drive mine!), and running costs of the non turbo are less. As always, the best bet is to take a test drive and see which you prefer of all the models. For me, it would be the 20VT first choice, with an Alfa V6 being second. The Coupe forum is very friendly and you will find many people willing to show you their cars or give you advise.
Last pieces of advice - DO NOT go to a Fiat Dealer, it is rare to find a good one, visit an independant specialist. Also, don't be put off with the myth of the expensive cambelt changes, £400 to £500 will cover it at a specialist.
Cheers, Dave
I have owned my car for a year and a half and my father owned it for 3 years before me, and there isn't anything else i would consider changing it for at this moment. The Alfa is very nice, but your decision will probably come down to which one you prefer the styling of ultimately, as well as space in the back considerations.
I would suggest one of the later 20V NA cars ('99 or 00 model) for your budget, the Turbo may cause similar scary moments for your other half if she is very nervous (my GF won't drive mine!), and running costs of the non turbo are less. As always, the best bet is to take a test drive and see which you prefer of all the models. For me, it would be the 20VT first choice, with an Alfa V6 being second. The Coupe forum is very friendly and you will find many people willing to show you their cars or give you advise.
Last pieces of advice - DO NOT go to a Fiat Dealer, it is rare to find a good one, visit an independant specialist. Also, don't be put off with the myth of the expensive cambelt changes, £400 to £500 will cover it at a specialist.
Cheers, Dave
Buy the Fiat! I have owned, driven and repaired both the GTV and Coupe. I have put my own money into a Coupe despite the fact that that it is a grey import in this country- Fiats haven't been sold in Oz since 1989.
I could have bought an equivalently aged GTV 3.0 for 20% less and a GTV 2.0 for 50% less and with the support of a country wide dealer network...
Personally I prefer the exterior of the GTV and the interior of the coupe. In terms of Practicality there is no comparison. The back seat of a GTV is suitable for only legless, headless dwarfs (no offence intended if any are participants in this forum)
Also there is no bootspace- beware if there appears to be room for more than a briefcase- means you have no spare wheel. Whereas the coupe has a great boot and you can even fold the seat down to put larger stuff through.
Depending on your size the ergonomics of the Coupe are much better, I am 6'2" and find that visibility is poor in the GTV and headroom compromised in the sunroof version. Build quality of the coupe is better too.
The GTV 2.0 TS is too slow to worry about and not particularly durable- cambelts break and variators become noisy. The 16V and 16VT are quite old and generally well thrashed- tending to a reputation for fragility.
The 3.0V6 is a really good performer and quite durable, more mechanically robust than the Fiat 20VT although heavier in the front end and misses out on the excellent Fiat Viscodrive LSD system in the turbo versions. The 20VT's main failing is cracked exhaust manifolds, otherwise most other problems are typical of wear in cars of that age and performance.
Handling is interesting, the GTV steers better- I still don't know why, I think it maybe due to the top strut mount setup- I might try some GTV ones in mine someday though.
The rear end of the fiat is simpler than the GTV one which gives a better ride, more boot space and lacks the twitchy feeling of the GTV passive rear steering setup.
In conclusion: Forget the GTV 2.0TS, Ditto the 16V and 16VT coupe unless exceptional. The 20V is virtually indestructible and practical, the 3.0GTV is fairly robust if averagely built and impractical. The 20VT coupe is the pick of the bunch- just look around and have it carefully checked out before you buy.
Good Luck!
I could have bought an equivalently aged GTV 3.0 for 20% less and a GTV 2.0 for 50% less and with the support of a country wide dealer network...
Personally I prefer the exterior of the GTV and the interior of the coupe. In terms of Practicality there is no comparison. The back seat of a GTV is suitable for only legless, headless dwarfs (no offence intended if any are participants in this forum)
Also there is no bootspace- beware if there appears to be room for more than a briefcase- means you have no spare wheel. Whereas the coupe has a great boot and you can even fold the seat down to put larger stuff through.
Depending on your size the ergonomics of the Coupe are much better, I am 6'2" and find that visibility is poor in the GTV and headroom compromised in the sunroof version. Build quality of the coupe is better too.
The GTV 2.0 TS is too slow to worry about and not particularly durable- cambelts break and variators become noisy. The 16V and 16VT are quite old and generally well thrashed- tending to a reputation for fragility.
The 3.0V6 is a really good performer and quite durable, more mechanically robust than the Fiat 20VT although heavier in the front end and misses out on the excellent Fiat Viscodrive LSD system in the turbo versions. The 20VT's main failing is cracked exhaust manifolds, otherwise most other problems are typical of wear in cars of that age and performance.
Handling is interesting, the GTV steers better- I still don't know why, I think it maybe due to the top strut mount setup- I might try some GTV ones in mine someday though.
The rear end of the fiat is simpler than the GTV one which gives a better ride, more boot space and lacks the twitchy feeling of the GTV passive rear steering setup.
In conclusion: Forget the GTV 2.0TS, Ditto the 16V and 16VT coupe unless exceptional. The 20V is virtually indestructible and practical, the 3.0GTV is fairly robust if averagely built and impractical. The 20VT coupe is the pick of the bunch- just look around and have it carefully checked out before you buy.
Good Luck!
Excellent - some good balanced opinions here.
I own a Fiat Coupe 20v n/a and have also driven the 2.0 GTV numerous times.
To be honest, I far prefer the Coupe as IMO they represent better value for money, and are far more practical cars with a better interior.
It sounds like neither the 3.0 GTV or the Coupe Turbo is what you are after for the wife
The 2 litre GTV is slower than the n/a Coupe, especially above 50-60 and doesn't sound as nice - the back seats in the GTV are almost non-existant and the boot is a lot smaller than that of the Coupe. I also find the low level of the windscreen in the GTV makes the cockpit feel rather claustrophobic.
You can get a really nice late (99 onwards) n/a Coupe for £5k - you can have mine in a couple of months if you like
and although some have posted here saying 'it's a Fiat', 'it's unreliable' etc etc., mine has never let me down and Coupe specialists readily admit the n/a Coupe is the most reliable in the range and good for well over 150k if well maintained. Also, although the badge might say Fiat, the car is a bit more than that having the exterior designed by Chris Bangle and the interior and car built by Pininfarina rather than Fiat. Come on, the headlight covers are supposed to resemble the curves of Mrs Bangle's booty
I can honestly say I still get kids looking at my £5k 6 year old car as I drive through town and people coming up to me at petrol stations and mistaking it for something more expensive. IMO they represent great value for money. Visit the forum and look at the cars there for sale - the enthusiasts are more likely to have a well-maintained loved example which are worth their weight in gold.
Ultimately it'll probably come down to which of the two cars styling you/your wife prefer though
If you are sold on the 20v n/a Coupe - try and track down a 1999 or later model - these have the most up to date engines with the VIS system (basically an electronic throttle cable instead of the cable which is prone to stretching). V-platers and later have a few more cosmetic touches such as colour coded sills and the turbo (thin spoke) alloys.
>> Edited by sj78 on Wednesday 26th January 09:39
I own a Fiat Coupe 20v n/a and have also driven the 2.0 GTV numerous times.
To be honest, I far prefer the Coupe as IMO they represent better value for money, and are far more practical cars with a better interior.
It sounds like neither the 3.0 GTV or the Coupe Turbo is what you are after for the wife
The 2 litre GTV is slower than the n/a Coupe, especially above 50-60 and doesn't sound as nice - the back seats in the GTV are almost non-existant and the boot is a lot smaller than that of the Coupe. I also find the low level of the windscreen in the GTV makes the cockpit feel rather claustrophobic.
You can get a really nice late (99 onwards) n/a Coupe for £5k - you can have mine in a couple of months if you like
and although some have posted here saying 'it's a Fiat', 'it's unreliable' etc etc., mine has never let me down and Coupe specialists readily admit the n/a Coupe is the most reliable in the range and good for well over 150k if well maintained. Also, although the badge might say Fiat, the car is a bit more than that having the exterior designed by Chris Bangle and the interior and car built by Pininfarina rather than Fiat. Come on, the headlight covers are supposed to resemble the curves of Mrs Bangle's booty I can honestly say I still get kids looking at my £5k 6 year old car as I drive through town and people coming up to me at petrol stations and mistaking it for something more expensive. IMO they represent great value for money. Visit the forum and look at the cars there for sale - the enthusiasts are more likely to have a well-maintained loved example which are worth their weight in gold.
Ultimately it'll probably come down to which of the two cars styling you/your wife prefer though
If you are sold on the 20v n/a Coupe - try and track down a 1999 or later model - these have the most up to date engines with the VIS system (basically an electronic throttle cable instead of the cable which is prone to stretching). V-platers and later have a few more cosmetic touches such as colour coded sills and the turbo (thin spoke) alloys.
>> Edited by sj78 on Wednesday 26th January 09:39
Two replies I've made to similar questions on PH in the past, both in favour of the Fiat (because I'm an owner!). Substantial reading, but hopefully it will shed some light:
-DeaDLocK- said:
Done this so many times before, but here we go...
1. the Fiat is not unreliable. The old 16 valvers were a bit notorious, but the 20v motors are fine. Build quality was also upped for the 20 valve cars, and remember, Pininfarina built the cars - not Fiat. They rattle a bit (not any more than anything non-German of that age though), but generally it is very reliable. The only caveat is that owners need to be willing to put some time into it to keep it sweet - it needs regular oil checks and basic mechanical ability is recommended. But they are nowhere near as unrealiable as reputation precedes. Mine does 40k/year and has never failed on me. Don't slag off the build quality either until you've been in a well-maintained one - it's a solid car.
2. The much reputed expensive cambelt change, due at 72k, will cost you £500 with change to spare at any reputable idependent specialist. Horror stories of £1200 bills are only at Fiat dealers, and all the clued-up owners of the 20VTs never take their cars to Fiat dealers anyway.
3. The 20VT is quick. Deceptively quick. 3rd gear is its trump card, pulling you convincingly to a dead 100mph at the line. As a comparison, it drives away from E46 330s. It is significantly quicker than Boxster 2.7s, and is on par through the gears with the 'S'. But because of that turbo, the sensation of speed and acceleration is higher. This is rarely mentioned but it also has a valve-timing trick that kicks in at about 5,000 rpm and helps a bit with the acceleration. Top-gear flexbibility is also good, with the NSL just under boost to save on consumption and anything over being very easy to manage. Right-foot-flex overtaking is a doddle.
4. It is FWD, but unless you fancy a bit of tail-out action, isn't a problem. As Jon has said, I don't know where all this conventional wisdom about RWD being more fun than FWD comes from. The only thing about better about RWD to me is if you like a little bit of sliding or if you want lots of power, seeing that it's difficult to stick more than say, 250bhp through the front wheels. Oh, The 20VT torque steers a bit, but round the corners, and while in full grip, it copes with lateral Gs pretty well. I am also genuinely grateful to be driving a FWD car this time of year. And remember the 20VT comes with a viscous coupling as standard and the boost is limited in the first two gears, so it does put down the power reasonably well. Just don't go expecting to enter drift competitions with it.
5. IMHO the Fiat has got character and styling that screams Italian. The interior is, and I think nobody can really argue with this one, a lot better and a far cosier place to be than the Jap-boxes. Leather and Climate Control were also popular options, though the standard leather seats don't hold you as well as the speeds that the car is capable of cornering at. I think it's got a lot more character than anything Japanese in it's price range, but styling and "character" are all fully subjective things. Oh, it's rare as well - a good thing in my books.
Ermm, anything else? I own a 20VT, and don't know jack about the MR2. So no comparison statements here (apart from the interior and the perceived character), but make no mistake: for £5k the Fiat 20VT is a wonderful car. The MR2 may well be too.
Last year sometime Autocar ran one of their annual What-Used-Car-Is-Best-For-X-Amount things. In the £5k bracket the 20VT won the write-up. However be prepared to pay anything up to £6.5k for one of the good (but older - P/R reg) examples.
Go drive one and make your mind up. If you're anywhere near Bristol I'd be willing to oblige a demo...
D
-DeaDLocK- said:
Hmmm,
I feel a need to interject here with feedback based on my own experiences and the almost unanimous opinion of all the road-tests I've read and the members of the Fiat Coupé Club.
Just some background: For the past couple of months I extensively research the Fiat Coupé 20v Turbo with the intention of getting one. I asked all the questions, read all the articles, and crawled through the forum archives digging out all sorts of info. Looked at a few cars (all 20v Turbos though) and eventually got a silver example last Tuesday. I love it.
Disclaimer: I know nothing at all about the Alfa, so I won't say anything about it.
£8k will buy you an absolutely immaculately pristine Coupé 20v Turbo. In fact, nobody even budgets £8k for a Coupé! £7k will already get you some of the most expensive examples out there (excluding the Plus and LE versions). Be a little bit smart and you can realistically get a corker for £5k - folks do this all the time. The prices for the Coupé are really really low, making the 220bhp Turbo extremely good value for money. With the prices for the 20v this low, my advice don't even consider the 16v.
Don't be scared by the big post £1k figure quoted by the previous poster. Firstly, any car you buy for your budget will almost certainly have had the cambelt done already. And even if it hasn't, there are specialists all over the country that will do it for £400-£600. And specialists for the Coupé are not just a cheap alternative for skint owners - they are entirely recommended. In fact one of the big advice lines from the owners forums is to NOT take your car to a Fiat dealer except for the easy stuff like spares and the like - for servicing and major work always go to the specialists because the numpties in the dealerships don't have a clue about the Coupé. "fFsh" is a bad thing.
Now to the car. Leather and aircon are the biggest options, and with your budget you will easily 100% definitely be able to get a car with both. The other option is an electric sunroof - some have 'em and some don't.
Comparions between the 16v and the 20v (from general opinion gathered from the likes of Autocar and folks experienced in both cars) - the 20v is more economical, quieter and refined. A bit more money to maintain, but not so much that it negates the benefits of the 5-pot over the 4. Also, production of the four pots stopped a long time ago, so if you want anything remotely recent you're gonna have to look for a 20v.
The 20v Turbo packs 220bhp and is a seriously stunning car. It comes with a viscous coupling and is boost limited in 1st and 2nd, so the car is by no means uncontrollable full-throttle in the earlier gears. It tears up tarmac a bit if you really go for it in the lower gears (as any car with that much power would), but it is genuinely composed and in the higher gears it is simply a treat to drive. Overtaking is a pleasure. The warble from the 5-pot is delicious - for a Fiat engine it really is nice. It is well built, and solid and very sturdy at speed. Grip and poise round the bends for a FWD car is astounding. Turbo lag is much improved over the 16v Turbo, though it is still there. Drive it smoothly though and you'll never get that jerk. Top end is a genuine 150mph, 0-60 in 6 secs.
Boot space and rear-seat space is good. It is border-line a genuine four-seater, not a roadster with pretend rear seats. Rear seats don't fold down, but there is a ski hatch.
The standard sound system is very good. In fact, I've heard cars three times the price with sound systems ten times worse.
Styling, horses for courses I guess. I personally love it. And think about silver as a colour, because it looks very classy in silver (but I'm biased). Though the cars are quite rare, so you may not be able to be completely fussy about colour. Also be prepared to travel and look at many cars, because there are about equal ratios abused and looked-after cars out there. Drive a few before settling on one.
Cons: Absoulutely horrid turning circle. You get used to it, but coming from almost any other car you will be shocked. If you don't do lots of tight parking lot squeezing, then it doesn't matter. Also, you have to keep a watch on the levels and temperatures. Nothing to get obsessed about, but weekly oil checks are recommended because they do guzzle oil. This is not a car you can get and forget about - it needs to be looked after.
Pros: Absolutely stonking performance. Get a well-looked after and well-specced one and build quality, economy, comfort and refinement are very surprising for the money you pay these days. Looks good, and still stands out (but the Alfa does too I guess). very tuneable if you're into that sort of thing.
A thriving owners forum exists, with loads of helpful members and frequent meets. The cars for sale section on the forum is also a great place to get good examples.
I think the bottom line is that you should drive a few examples of both the Alfa and the Fiat (and with regards to the Fiat, my advice is go for the 20VT and nothing else). If it's performance you want though (and being a PHer I trust it's one of your criteria), the Coupé 20VT will completely and resoundingly obliterate the GTV. 0-100 times are 14.5 vs 22.8 seconds. Word has it though that the handling in the GTV is better and more refined, but with such a performance deficit when compared to the Coupé, it hardly matters to me.
I know I've directly contradicted some earlier comments here, but I quite sure what I say is right (or at least the general consensus). Of course, corrections are welcome.
E-Mail me if you need any further advice.
Rudi
Perfect timing Pete.
In the space of one calendar week, and as of yesterday, my motor has a new hybrid turbo, new brakes all round, new induction kit, new tuning chip and new exhaust system among a lot of other things besides.
Hoping to take it to a RR in the next couple of weeks, and if all is well it's should be knocking about 270-280bhp at safe boost levels (I hope!).
In the space of one calendar week, and as of yesterday, my motor has a new hybrid turbo, new brakes all round, new induction kit, new tuning chip and new exhaust system among a lot of other things besides.
Hoping to take it to a RR in the next couple of weeks, and if all is well it's should be knocking about 270-280bhp at safe boost levels (I hope!).
Hi everyone,
Well after MUCH deliberation and weighing up the pro's and cons of both Marques, A decision HAS been reached...Hoorrah!!!
Sorry to all you Alfa guys, but boot space and room in the back has won the day, The Alfa's styling is truly magnificent but with kids and trolleys etc, we decided on The Fiat Coupe,
Yes it too is beautiful, (the back is not as pretty IMO as the GTV) but practicality wins hands down,
Seen a few now and have found a very nice example with very reasonable mileage, all 3 keys History and a real looker.....Which Model?...C'mon fellas was there ever going to be any doubt it has to be a
20V T. The performance figures are most impressive (yet not too much for the spouse to handle for pottering around town, and something for me to play in when its too wet and nasty to take the Cerb out) and of course Specialists will be the only source for servicing.
As the deal is not yet completed, hopefully I will collect the car this weekend, I do not want to disclose any further details until the deed is done. I will say that the colour played a massive part in the decision too, (yes Silver is very impressive) but there could only ever be one for us "Sprint Blue" after my beloved Man City.
Thanks again everyone for all your help.
Warm regards,
Cooky
ps a list of good specialists in the Manchester/Cheshire area would be most appreciated, please email me with any incidents or appraisals as not to offend anyone.
>> Edited by Cooky on Thursday 27th January 00:28
Well after MUCH deliberation and weighing up the pro's and cons of both Marques, A decision HAS been reached...Hoorrah!!!
Sorry to all you Alfa guys, but boot space and room in the back has won the day, The Alfa's styling is truly magnificent but with kids and trolleys etc, we decided on The Fiat Coupe,
Yes it too is beautiful, (the back is not as pretty IMO as the GTV) but practicality wins hands down,
Seen a few now and have found a very nice example with very reasonable mileage, all 3 keys History and a real looker.....Which Model?...C'mon fellas was there ever going to be any doubt it has to be a
20V T. The performance figures are most impressive (yet not too much for the spouse to handle for pottering around town, and something for me to play in when its too wet and nasty to take the Cerb out) and of course Specialists will be the only source for servicing.
As the deal is not yet completed, hopefully I will collect the car this weekend, I do not want to disclose any further details until the deed is done. I will say that the colour played a massive part in the decision too, (yes Silver is very impressive) but there could only ever be one for us "Sprint Blue" after my beloved Man City.
Thanks again everyone for all your help.
Warm regards,
Cooky
ps a list of good specialists in the Manchester/Cheshire area would be most appreciated, please email me with any incidents or appraisals as not to offend anyone.
>> Edited by Cooky on Thursday 27th January 00:28
Congratulations !
Given your practicality requirements, the FIAT was always going to do better than the Alfa, as beautiful and quick as they both are.
Mangoletsi have ( almost ) always given me good service, I don't know of anyone else in that region I could recomend.
Deadlock ..it sounds like you've done to your coupe everything I wanted to do to mine ! Love to know the results of all that work .
Anyone have any idea where V717GCB is ?
Tim
Given your practicality requirements, the FIAT was always going to do better than the Alfa, as beautiful and quick as they both are.
Mangoletsi have ( almost ) always given me good service, I don't know of anyone else in that region I could recomend.
Deadlock ..it sounds like you've done to your coupe everything I wanted to do to mine ! Love to know the results of all that work .
Anyone have any idea where V717GCB is ?
Tim
FANTASTIC! Both are great cars, but if practicality is a concern then to be honest the Coupé was always a sure bet.
Now join the Owners Club for £25 here, and definitely get yourself on the forum here.
The forum is a fantastic source of information and it is just a generally great place (like PH). The community is diverse very friendly, and we hold frequent club meets all around the country. It is not at all a place where max-power louts waste their days and dole money on by insulting everything and speaking the "innit" language.
Good for you (though the colour is awful!)
Dave, you making Coombe? I've got your Cat here for you - new turbo works a charm. Oh, do you like red or white?
D
>> Edited by -DeaDLocK- on Thursday 27th January 12:45
Good choice Sir. Definitely get on the Coupe forum and take a look at the buying guide in the buying and selling section. It is one of the best single make forums i've seen with owners from around the globe, very friendly and knowledgeable and many people spend a lot of time on there helping/advising others.
There is a list/contact details of specialists around the country in the regular maintenance section of the site - these are guys who have been recommended by more than a few Coupe owners - there is one in the Manchester area I am sure, but the name escapes me at the mo
Hope you and your wife enjoy the car
There is a list/contact details of specialists around the country in the regular maintenance section of the site - these are guys who have been recommended by more than a few Coupe owners - there is one in the Manchester area I am sure, but the name escapes me at the mo
Hope you and your wife enjoy the car
Cooky said:
Sorry to all you Alfa guys, but boot space and room in the back has won the day, The Alfa's styling is truly magnificent but with kids and trolleys etc, we decided on The Fiat Coupe
I thought that might be the case, given your requirements!
Sounds like you've found a nice one; get some pics up asap.
Congratulations - I'm sure you'll be very happy together!
If i land the job im applying for ill be making the same decision very soon. already 90% towards the fiat, but I want to know about the power delivery - i dont want a nothing nothing *ZOOM* change gear nothing nothing drive....
If i get it new job will involve may involve occasional travelling up and down the country so id like to have something newer (and more replacable) than the volumex to do it in.
If i get it new job will involve may involve occasional travelling up and down the country so id like to have something newer (and more replacable) than the volumex to do it in.
Chris,
20VT's are nothing like that, they come on boost about 2,200rpm or so, and pull all the way to 6,500(ish), just getting faster and faster as the revs rise.
That said, it can be good fun to pull away from a junction at about 1,100rpm in 3rd, enjoying the grunt of a V6 .... and then letting it rev out all the way to 90mph or so
you pays your money .....
20VT's are nothing like that, they come on boost about 2,200rpm or so, and pull all the way to 6,500(ish), just getting faster and faster as the revs rise.
That said, it can be good fun to pull away from a junction at about 1,100rpm in 3rd, enjoying the grunt of a V6 .... and then letting it rev out all the way to 90mph or so
you pays your money .....
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