My 147 is dead - nearly
Discussion
Howdy all.
Started the 147 on Monday morning - running a tad rough.
Well... when I say a tad.. I mean DOG rough!
'Engine Control System Failure' is whats coming up so dropped it into an AR dealer to sort out.
He tell's me that a gasket needed replacing which was done but that it leaked oil all over the plugs which he cleaned. £160 sorted. I would have hoped. Not a thing different. Picked it up just as I left it but I'm a few quid lighter. It'll have to wait till after xmas now.
AR dealer reckons some oil may have made its way to the lamda sensor. In any case...
Power is gone. It'll go on the motorway if I cruise along but try and accelerate and nothing happens really except it starts bleeping at me. It's limping badly.
I'm afraid its a gonner - or my xmas money is anyway!
Any ideas? (PLEASE) Its a 2002 2.0 TS (PLEASE)
Started the 147 on Monday morning - running a tad rough.
Well... when I say a tad.. I mean DOG rough!
'Engine Control System Failure' is whats coming up so dropped it into an AR dealer to sort out.
He tell's me that a gasket needed replacing which was done but that it leaked oil all over the plugs which he cleaned. £160 sorted. I would have hoped. Not a thing different. Picked it up just as I left it but I'm a few quid lighter. It'll have to wait till after xmas now.
AR dealer reckons some oil may have made its way to the lamda sensor. In any case...
Power is gone. It'll go on the motorway if I cruise along but try and accelerate and nothing happens really except it starts bleeping at me. It's limping badly.
I'm afraid its a gonner - or my xmas money is anyway!
Any ideas? (PLEASE) Its a 2002 2.0 TS (PLEASE)
Edited by johndoc2000 on Thursday 21st December 15:41
Did they mention anything about the AFM or MAF?
It's the Air Flow Meter and as it is a German made part it commonly goes wrong...
Start at the airbox and follow the trunking round towards the intake manifold. You will find a "black thing" sticking out with wires coming out of it. You can unplug this and the engine should default to a safe setting. If the engine runs fine, the AFM is jiggered. If it doesn't make any difference, it could still be that, but not as likely!!
Where the blue bits go, yours would have the black air intake trunking. You are looking for the bit sticking out of the top.
www.alfaworkshop.co.uk/alfa_romeo_air_flow.shtml
It's the Air Flow Meter and as it is a German made part it commonly goes wrong...
Start at the airbox and follow the trunking round towards the intake manifold. You will find a "black thing" sticking out with wires coming out of it. You can unplug this and the engine should default to a safe setting. If the engine runs fine, the AFM is jiggered. If it doesn't make any difference, it could still be that, but not as likely!!
Where the blue bits go, yours would have the black air intake trunking. You are looking for the bit sticking out of the top.
www.alfaworkshop.co.uk/alfa_romeo_air_flow.shtml
No mention of the MAF. He did say that it could the lamba sensor or I need new plugs.
Might be worth getting isopropyl alcohol and giving the MAF a clean....
I can't even understand whats gone on.
- Gasket gone.
- Oil into engine.
- Contaminated?????
- Huh?
I must say I'm gutted that I left the dealer with car in exactly the same conditon and me £160 lighter. Gutted.
Might be worth getting isopropyl alcohol and giving the MAF a clean....
I can't even understand whats gone on.
- Gasket gone.
- Oil into engine.
- Contaminated?????
- Huh?
I must say I'm gutted that I left the dealer with car in exactly the same conditon and me £160 lighter. Gutted.
Just had another look.
It rev's up smooth from 2k revs as long as there's no load on it. Trying to get off idle is as rough as a rough thing. One of the lads here at work is thinking injector.
The dealer was giving it loads about me being lucky I didn't need new plugs. (170 quid - sharp intake of breath etc). Forgive my lack of knowledge but wet plugs not so good. Oil on plugs should just wipe of and away we go. Am I wrong?
edit. Oh. And he steam cleaned the engine. Thanks.
It rev's up smooth from 2k revs as long as there's no load on it. Trying to get off idle is as rough as a rough thing. One of the lads here at work is thinking injector.
The dealer was giving it loads about me being lucky I didn't need new plugs. (170 quid - sharp intake of breath etc). Forgive my lack of knowledge but wet plugs not so good. Oil on plugs should just wipe of and away we go. Am I wrong?
edit. Oh. And he steam cleaned the engine. Thanks.
Edited by johndoc2000 on Thursday 21st December 16:41
The Twin Sparks can get water/oil/muck down the plug holes but it would cause more of a misfire than the complete disaster you are describing! My feeling is that the oily plugs is a red herring. Set of plugs is £60 or so on Ebay.
Lambda probe is possible, but again it tends to cause general rough around the edges running. When the AFM fails you can't pull the skin of a rice pudding. Happened on my old 145QV. It wouldn't even drive in the end. Unplugged the AFM and WHHHOOOOO back to 7,000 rpm just as it should be. It's worth a try and you can't knacker anything. Don't clean it, just unplug it.
Lambda probe is possible, but again it tends to cause general rough around the edges running. When the AFM fails you can't pull the skin of a rice pudding. Happened on my old 145QV. It wouldn't even drive in the end. Unplugged the AFM and WHHHOOOOO back to 7,000 rpm just as it should be. It's worth a try and you can't knacker anything. Don't clean it, just unplug it.
Has the dealer done an examiner check to find the cause of the 'engine control system failure' warning? That should have thrown up a fault code which would identify the problem.
While oil around the plugs would cause a misfire, if that hasn't cured the fault there's a more fundamental problem somewhere. I wouldn't suspect the plugs - this fault has come on suddenly, not symptomatic of the way plugs fail.
I would also tend to discount the lambda sensor. To allow the rich mixture needed for a cold start the system ignore lambda readings until the engine temperature reaches around 75 degrees, so with a faulty lambda sensor engines tend to start OK, run rough for while & then run fine once warmed up. Faulty lambda sensors don't, at least on 145s, flag up a warning, although a diagnostic check will show an out-of-range reading.
While oil around the plugs would cause a misfire, if that hasn't cured the fault there's a more fundamental problem somewhere. I wouldn't suspect the plugs - this fault has come on suddenly, not symptomatic of the way plugs fail.
I would also tend to discount the lambda sensor. To allow the rich mixture needed for a cold start the system ignore lambda readings until the engine temperature reaches around 75 degrees, so with a faulty lambda sensor engines tend to start OK, run rough for while & then run fine once warmed up. Faulty lambda sensors don't, at least on 145s, flag up a warning, although a diagnostic check will show an out-of-range reading.
Had a similiar thing with my 156. Started misfiring and generally running rough with the engine management light coming on when under load. Then total descent into 'no power' and a permanent light on.
The problem was that water had gotten down to the plugs when it had been steam cleaned and left standing for a while. So a quick change of plugs and everything was fine again.
Bite the bullet and change the plugs
The problem was that water had gotten down to the plugs when it had been steam cleaned and left standing for a while. So a quick change of plugs and everything was fine again.
Bite the bullet and change the plugs
So now back from xmas hols and the 147 has unsurprisingly (though unhelpfully) failed to apply voodoo magic of some sort and cure itself!
As suggested, I disconnected the MAF to see what changed but it ran exactly same.
On the lambda sensor, would the 147 have heated lambda’s so a fault there would kick in straight away rather than wait for the exhaust to heat. Saying that, they’d need to be quick heaters because I can ‘feel’ the fault immediately on starting.
Back to the 160 quid AR dealer spark plugs then. eBay comment noted though!!
Plugs are on there for 58 notes… is there much involved in changing them??
Cheers lads.
As suggested, I disconnected the MAF to see what changed but it ran exactly same.
On the lambda sensor, would the 147 have heated lambda’s so a fault there would kick in straight away rather than wait for the exhaust to heat. Saying that, they’d need to be quick heaters because I can ‘feel’ the fault immediately on starting.
Back to the 160 quid AR dealer spark plugs then. eBay comment noted though!!
Plugs are on there for 58 notes… is there much involved in changing them??
Cheers lads.
Just found this from eddythealfaman from back in 2004 on a 156
Should do the trick
eddymann said:
to remove the s.plugs on the ts 16v eng.
1400 1600 1800 2000
remove the oil filler cap then the top cover plastic or alloy.
undo the 3 special screws holding the long metal plate/bracket that holds the 4 coils and 4 plug leads...
lever the metal plate bracket upwards...
dont slip..dont curse..dont bust the coils or the
plug leads..try poping off the plug leads if they do
not move
if and when you have done that... air blast the plug holes... remove the plugs to clean or replace.
we charge £88 for the set.
put a bit of copperslip on the threads
do not over tighten or you will damage the plugs
so when you start the eng. the plug blows out
of its plug thread. regards eddythealfaman
1400 1600 1800 2000
remove the oil filler cap then the top cover plastic or alloy.
undo the 3 special screws holding the long metal plate/bracket that holds the 4 coils and 4 plug leads...
lever the metal plate bracket upwards...
dont slip..dont curse..dont bust the coils or the
plug leads..try poping off the plug leads if they do
not move
if and when you have done that... air blast the plug holes... remove the plugs to clean or replace.
we charge £88 for the set.
put a bit of copperslip on the threads
do not over tighten or you will damage the plugs
so when you start the eng. the plug blows out
of its plug thread. regards eddythealfaman
Should do the trick
Its Alive!!!
Took it back to AR Dealer who started to tell me how the plugs needed changing. I asked for a quote and it went along the lines of "Well, 4 plugs at £11.52 each....."
How's that for boosting confidence!?!? An AR dealer who thinks there's 4 plugs on a 2002 147 TS.
What the fault was in the end (from what I can gather) is as follows
Assuming AR was correct on its first visit, the rocker cover gasket went, allowing oil all over the place. They replaced the gasket, cleaned the plugs and put everything back together. When I went to pick it up, they told me it was running a bit rough. On its second visit to AR, they spotted a failed ignition coil and quoted close to 300 notes
Not knowing if they had any real idea what the problem was (they think there's 4 plugs in a 147 TS remember), I said no thanks and took it to Eddy TheAlfaMan www.alfamanservices.co.uk
Diagnosed in no time and sorted for half the AR price. Thanks Eddy. Anyone in North or West London, look him up.
It was the coil in the end but HOW DID AN AR DEALER LET ME LEAVE WITH ONLY 3 CYLINDERS FIRING. The closest he got was ‘Its running a bit rough’. Ya don’t say!!!!!
My first AR visit was 160 quid to replace a rocker cover gasket then. This sound right to you guys? How might I go about getting some of it back?
Don’t fancy my chances but letting a customer leave the premises on 3 cylinders!? Please. That is bad.
Edit: Thanks for the input everyone. Much appreciated.
Took it back to AR Dealer who started to tell me how the plugs needed changing. I asked for a quote and it went along the lines of "Well, 4 plugs at £11.52 each....."
How's that for boosting confidence!?!? An AR dealer who thinks there's 4 plugs on a 2002 147 TS.
What the fault was in the end (from what I can gather) is as follows
Assuming AR was correct on its first visit, the rocker cover gasket went, allowing oil all over the place. They replaced the gasket, cleaned the plugs and put everything back together. When I went to pick it up, they told me it was running a bit rough. On its second visit to AR, they spotted a failed ignition coil and quoted close to 300 notes
Not knowing if they had any real idea what the problem was (they think there's 4 plugs in a 147 TS remember), I said no thanks and took it to Eddy TheAlfaMan www.alfamanservices.co.uk
Diagnosed in no time and sorted for half the AR price. Thanks Eddy. Anyone in North or West London, look him up.
It was the coil in the end but HOW DID AN AR DEALER LET ME LEAVE WITH ONLY 3 CYLINDERS FIRING. The closest he got was ‘Its running a bit rough’. Ya don’t say!!!!!
My first AR visit was 160 quid to replace a rocker cover gasket then. This sound right to you guys? How might I go about getting some of it back?
Don’t fancy my chances but letting a customer leave the premises on 3 cylinders!? Please. That is bad.
Edit: Thanks for the input everyone. Much appreciated.
Edited by johndoc2000 on Thursday 4th January 17:18
johndoc2000 said:
letting a customer leave the premises on 3 cylinders!? Please. That is bad.
An Alfa technician put my timing belt on a tooth out and when I said it wasn't right he claimed (twice!) that "if it sounds different it's because it's running better". Later that year, he got through to the final of the Fiat UK "Top Dealer Expert Technician" awards. 
Obviously, there are exceptions, but I get the impression that Independents care more about getting the job done right, Dealers care about getting it done quickly.
Glad you're sorted now, anyway.
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