RE: Alfa plots 3-door Mini rival
Discussion
pesmo said:
The great thing about the Sud was its low CoG and light overall weight. How likely is it the the new car will have these benefits ? Virtually all small/medium cars are 40% heavier today than their predecessors 2/3 generations ago. If I remember correctly even the last Suds were only about 900kg 
Edited by pesmo on Thursday 4th January 15:11
It's called the panda 100HP.
mini_ralf said:
DennisTheMenace said:
Would love to see it retro styled to look like the original ,
lovely looking cars , this picture was taken of a year old one on a dealer forecourt in italy ...
lovely looking cars , this picture was taken of a year old one on a dealer forecourt in italy ...
Why would an Italian dealer want to sell a Hillman Hunter?
I think you mean Hillman Avenger
Must get myself one of those pedant pendants
Edited by DavidEJM on Thursday 4th January 21:16
Alfa could never build another 'Sud worthy of the name. The car outshone everything around it. It was a landmark car.
It's steering was superb - one of the 5 best in the world according to LJKS. As mentioned a low centre of gravity and light engine/overall weight did wonders for low roll without the need for super-stiff springs. It had inboard discs and small wheels so unsprung weight was kept down. It has rear wheel steering engineered into the rear suspension arm mountings/bushes so it didn't understeer. With its longitudinal engine/box, and designed for future 4wd by Austrian designer Rudi Huskra ( I think) it had a brilliant light, direct gearchange too! As you may guess I liked my 'Suds, as did my dad with his Sud Sprints.
Of course they grew and got heavier and plastic bits added and diluted the plot. The finest cars were the original 1200 ti and sprint veloce. I had a 1200 in 1979, almost my first car and I was spoiled for life. Between tuned up 'Suds and X1/9s the 80's was a good time for motoring. Not so fast but very enjoyable and very instructive. They would both spin if you didn't concentrate!
My last Sud was a Yellow 1.5, twin 44 IDFs, Alquati cams, P7 Corsas, Koni sports that did rather well in local road rallies and "12 cars" not to mention AROC trackdays - were these the first trackdays??
Must take of these rose tinted glasses.......they're misting up.
Can still recognise an avenger though!
It's steering was superb - one of the 5 best in the world according to LJKS. As mentioned a low centre of gravity and light engine/overall weight did wonders for low roll without the need for super-stiff springs. It had inboard discs and small wheels so unsprung weight was kept down. It has rear wheel steering engineered into the rear suspension arm mountings/bushes so it didn't understeer. With its longitudinal engine/box, and designed for future 4wd by Austrian designer Rudi Huskra ( I think) it had a brilliant light, direct gearchange too! As you may guess I liked my 'Suds, as did my dad with his Sud Sprints.
Of course they grew and got heavier and plastic bits added and diluted the plot. The finest cars were the original 1200 ti and sprint veloce. I had a 1200 in 1979, almost my first car and I was spoiled for life. Between tuned up 'Suds and X1/9s the 80's was a good time for motoring. Not so fast but very enjoyable and very instructive. They would both spin if you didn't concentrate!
My last Sud was a Yellow 1.5, twin 44 IDFs, Alquati cams, P7 Corsas, Koni sports that did rather well in local road rallies and "12 cars" not to mention AROC trackdays - were these the first trackdays??
Must take of these rose tinted glasses.......they're misting up.
Can still recognise an avenger though!
This is the only time I've seen something about the new 'Junior' being built on a Panda, not Grande Punto platform. Everybody else is saying Punto, not Panda.
I reckon it will be a Punto myself, cracking chassis
Will the new Fiat 500 be on the Panda chassis or is it a bespoke one?.
Either way move over BMW Mini the real cars are on the way...
I reckon it will be a Punto myself, cracking chassis
Will the new Fiat 500 be on the Panda chassis or is it a bespoke one?.
Either way move over BMW Mini the real cars are on the way...
velocemitch said:
This is the only time I've seen something about the new 'Junior' being built on a Panda, not Grande Punto platform. Everybody else is saying Punto, not Panda.
I reckon it will be a Punto myself, cracking chassis
Will the new Fiat 500 be on the Panda chassis or is it a bespoke one?.
The new 500 is be built on the same platform as the new Ka, which (I think) is not the same as the Panda. I reckon it will be a Punto myself, cracking chassis
Will the new Fiat 500 be on the Panda chassis or is it a bespoke one?.
You're right that most other reports have had the Junior being built on the Punto chassis, but most of the other renderings have looked closer to the Punto in terms of where the A and B pillars meet the body than the one in Autocar, albeit the Autocar one is at an odd angle.
Am I the only one who's fed up of this market led drivle, that digs up old illustrious/classic names from the past and tries to sell on them, with some common platformed shite, with carry over engines and other odds and ends. In other words, fancy marketing , with fancy trendy interiors and sophisticated feeling interiors with no engineering substance benneath the surface?
You won't produce a ground breaking car, via marketing and commitee driven meetings, and accountants demanding common platforms, engines, suspensions systems and other componentry, only to hope to get back the kudos via 'suprise and delight' features such as rear door handles hidden in the vent and eyeball interior vents
Judging by the sales of cars like the new Mini I think I am the only one who is cynical enough to see through all the smoke and mirrors.
The original Alfa was an 'engineered' car, with sophisticated suspension,and a bespoke special engine. It also looked great (in the moments before rust broke through the paintwork
)
You won't produce a ground breaking car, via marketing and commitee driven meetings, and accountants demanding common platforms, engines, suspensions systems and other componentry, only to hope to get back the kudos via 'suprise and delight' features such as rear door handles hidden in the vent and eyeball interior vents
Judging by the sales of cars like the new Mini I think I am the only one who is cynical enough to see through all the smoke and mirrors.
The original Alfa was an 'engineered' car, with sophisticated suspension,and a bespoke special engine. It also looked great (in the moments before rust broke through the paintwork
)
cupramax said:
DennisTheMenace said:
Would love to see it retro styled to look like the original ,
Fortunately SEAT beat them to it...
Probably not too much of a coincidence that 'De Silva' who works for Seat used to be head stylist at Alfa Romeo....(although I doubt he was actually involved with the Sud itself)
Edited by Marquis_Rex on Friday 5th January 09:32
I too cut my motoring teeth on a Sud (a 82 TiX) and still have the happy memories (forgetting about the blown head gasket late one night lol).
The blend of good performance, razor sharp throttle response and go kart like handling was unbeatable. In fact the car spoilt me, I sold the Sud for an early 2.8 Capri and whilst I liked that car too, it felt like a lazy barge compared to my Sud.
Can't wait to see a worthy successor.
The blend of good performance, razor sharp throttle response and go kart like handling was unbeatable. In fact the car spoilt me, I sold the Sud for an early 2.8 Capri and whilst I liked that car too, it felt like a lazy barge compared to my Sud.
Can't wait to see a worthy successor.
I loved my 1.5ti cloverleaf, it was the reason I learned to weld 
Nothing on the road sounded like it at the time. It had twin 45s and I think it was an Ansa exhaust and it used to crackle when you gave it some welly. It was also the first car I had that went round corners since my original Mini days.
Nothing on the road sounded like it at the time. It had twin 45s and I think it was an Ansa exhaust and it used to crackle when you gave it some welly. It was also the first car I had that went round corners since my original Mini days.Marquis_Rex said:
Am I the only one who's fed up of this market led drivle, that digs up old illustrious/classic names from the past and tries to sell on them, with some common platformed shite, with carry over engines and other odds and ends. In other words, fancy marketing , with fancy trendy interiors and sophisticated feeling interiors with no engineering substance benneath the surface?
You won't produce a ground breaking car, via marketing and commitee driven meetings, and accountants demanding common platforms, engines, suspensions systems and other componentry, only to hope to get back the kudos via 'suprise and delight' features such as rear door handles hidden in the vent and eyeball interior vents
Judging by the sales of cars like the new Mini I think I am the only one who is cynical enough to see through all the smoke and mirrors.
The original Alfa was an 'engineered' car, with sophisticated suspension,and a bespoke special engine. It also looked great (in the moments before rust broke through the paintwork)
You won't produce a ground breaking car, via marketing and commitee driven meetings, and accountants demanding common platforms, engines, suspensions systems and other componentry, only to hope to get back the kudos via 'suprise and delight' features such as rear door handles hidden in the vent and eyeball interior vents
Judging by the sales of cars like the new Mini I think I am the only one who is cynical enough to see through all the smoke and mirrors.
The original Alfa was an 'engineered' car, with sophisticated suspension,and a bespoke special engine. It also looked great (in the moments before rust broke through the paintwork
)I see what your getting at but I disagree that bringing up old names is wrong. Yes the mini is a cynical marketing effort at best but its also (allegedly) a hoot to drive, and very well engineered. See, the wonderful thing about cynical marketing is that it makes money from poseurs... a fact that helped me choose one of my majors. But is there anything wrong with cashing in on the romanticism of old nameplates? Badges that gave their respective companies their illustrius histories, that bring fond memories back to the oldies and 'retro' chic to the latte set. And I'll bet you that a new, 21st century Sud will be a lot better engineered than they old ones. You know, something to do with advances in technology and all. Time will do that. Will it be revolutionary? Perhaps not, but calling a similiar vehicle (in terms of purpose, type etc) an Alfa Sud probably makes more sense than calling it an Alfa Romeo One-Four-Nothing. Do you think the Golf would have been as successful if they'd changed its name every generation? The old car doesn't even need to be good. Nissan lumped its Tiida nameplate on it Pulsar replacement, and people with old ones ignored Nissan dealers come trade in time because they'd heard that Nissan 'didn't make the Pulsar anymore'. Cue adverts later saying 'It's the new Pulsar'.
Let me know how the Auris does.
Ali.
FestivAli said:
Marquis_Rex said:
Am I the only one who's fed up of this market led drivle, that digs up old illustrious/classic names from the past and tries to sell on them, with some common platformed shite, with carry over engines and other odds and ends. In other words, fancy marketing , with fancy trendy interiors and sophisticated feeling interiors with no engineering substance benneath the surface?
You won't produce a ground breaking car, via marketing and commitee driven meetings, and accountants demanding common platforms, engines, suspensions systems and other componentry, only to hope to get back the kudos via 'suprise and delight' features such as rear door handles hidden in the vent and eyeball interior vents
Judging by the sales of cars like the new Mini I think I am the only one who is cynical enough to see through all the smoke and mirrors.
The original Alfa was an 'engineered' car, with sophisticated suspension,and a bespoke special engine. It also looked great (in the moments before rust broke through the paintwork)
You won't produce a ground breaking car, via marketing and commitee driven meetings, and accountants demanding common platforms, engines, suspensions systems and other componentry, only to hope to get back the kudos via 'suprise and delight' features such as rear door handles hidden in the vent and eyeball interior vents
Judging by the sales of cars like the new Mini I think I am the only one who is cynical enough to see through all the smoke and mirrors.
The original Alfa was an 'engineered' car, with sophisticated suspension,and a bespoke special engine. It also looked great (in the moments before rust broke through the paintwork
)I see what your getting at but I disagree that bringing up old names is wrong. Yes the mini is a cynical marketing effort at best but its also (allegedly) a hoot to drive, and very well engineered. See, the wonderful thing about cynical marketing is that it makes money from poseurs... a fact that helped me choose one of my majors. But is there anything wrong with cashing in on the romanticism of old nameplates? Badges that gave their respective companies their illustrius histories, that bring fond memories back to the oldies and 'retro' chic to the latte set. And I'll bet you that a new, 21st century Sud will be a lot better engineered than they old ones. You know, something to do with advances in technology and all. Time will do that. Will it be revolutionary? Perhaps not, but calling a similiar vehicle (in terms of purpose, type etc) an Alfa Sud probably makes more sense than calling it an Alfa Romeo One-Four-Nothing. Do you think the Golf would have been as successful if they'd changed its name every generation? The old car doesn't even need to be good. Nissan lumped its Tiida nameplate on it Pulsar replacement, and people with old ones ignored Nissan dealers come trade in time because they'd heard that Nissan 'didn't make the Pulsar anymore'. Cue adverts later saying 'It's the new Pulsar'.
Let me know how the Auris does.
Ali.
In a nutshell you're asking me if there's anything wrong in a market led product without engnieering substance using a famous moniker from the past. As an engineer, I say, yes.
IMO it's inappropriate to compare it with the Sud of old because of these "engineering advances", but will it be the leap above the current opposition the original Sud was?
Ali said:
And I'll bet you that a new, 21st century Sud will be a lot better engineered than they old ones. You know, something to do with advances in technology and all. Time will do that.
How do you define "better engineered"? Better quality? May be. Better build, almost definately, more fun?Hmmm
More innovative?Hmmmmm....
More Groundbreaking?? errrrr...
Phrases using the great god of "modern technology" make me smile also: There's no doubt been massive advances in tyre technology and suspension kinematics, however, if a modern Alfa Sud had a modern Boxer 4, a multi link set up at the rear, double wishbones at the front, inboard disks and a light weight extruded aluminium structure, it would run rings around any cost compromised Panda platformed Fiat engined machine. However only the naive would expect a scenario like that to occur. Innovation is no longer important, marketing and sales and "lifestyle" are primary above all else.
Where is the line drawn?
Why can't the future Porsche 911s have V6 Audi engines mounted at the front- as long as they look similar to the old one? It would be a hell of a lot cheaper to manufacture. I'm sure with enough electronics and technology this notional Audi V6 engined 911 could be made to handle and ride well if not better.
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