Disciplinary stuff outside working hours.
Discussion
I got a call from my voicemail service a couple of hours ago, it was the HR manager at my work telling me of a disciplinary meeting this Tuesday at 0900hrs.
No problem, I'm not one to shirk from the consequences of my actions, I was expecting this and have no problems with the process.
The problem is the time, it is a full four hours before I start work. It takes me 40 minutes to get to work, I'm pretty loathe to travel there for a short meeting then home again, only to leave for work two hours later. The time from my day is one thing, the cost of travel is quite another.
Anyway, I phone HR, speak to one of the dogsbodies, she says she will try and sort it out for later in the day, I thank her, apologise for the hassle, end of conversation.
A little while later I get a call from the HR manager, the conversation is a little less friendly, she's trying to get me to say I'm refusing to attend the meeting. I struggle to get her to see my point of view on it, that it is a work thing and if not held during work hours, at least at a time convenient to all, me included. I'm not refusing, merely asking if it can be moved. She's very snotty...
So, what's the official gen on stuff like this? Is there an official and binding line? I've been through the company's disciplinary policy, there's no mention of this in it.
No problem, I'm not one to shirk from the consequences of my actions, I was expecting this and have no problems with the process.
The problem is the time, it is a full four hours before I start work. It takes me 40 minutes to get to work, I'm pretty loathe to travel there for a short meeting then home again, only to leave for work two hours later. The time from my day is one thing, the cost of travel is quite another.
Anyway, I phone HR, speak to one of the dogsbodies, she says she will try and sort it out for later in the day, I thank her, apologise for the hassle, end of conversation.
A little while later I get a call from the HR manager, the conversation is a little less friendly, she's trying to get me to say I'm refusing to attend the meeting. I struggle to get her to see my point of view on it, that it is a work thing and if not held during work hours, at least at a time convenient to all, me included. I'm not refusing, merely asking if it can be moved. She's very snotty...
So, what's the official gen on stuff like this? Is there an official and binding line? I've been through the company's disciplinary policy, there's no mention of this in it.
Your required attendance at work will be dictated by your contract end of story and an HR person worth their salt would know this. If you are required to attend outside of that then it constitutes overtime which I imagine is voluntary.
Anyway this is getting off the point. What did you do to her and are there any pictures?
Anyway this is getting off the point. What did you do to her and are there any pictures?
MOTORVATOR said:
Your required attendance at work will be dictated by your contract end of story and an HR person worth their salt would know this. If you are required to attend outside of that then it constitutes overtime which I imagine is voluntary.
Anyway this is getting off the point. What did you do to her and are there any pictures?
+1Anyway this is getting off the point. What did you do to her and are there any pictures?
Could you ask if your working hours could be amended for that day to fit round the time of the meeting? I take it they know your working hours and how far you have to travel to get to work? It might well be they have struggled to get the necessary people together for a meeting at short-ish notice and this was the best they could do? Compromise on both sides is usually best though.
(Taking off HR hat now...)
Or you could just tell them that your union representative / colleague, etc, is unable to attend at that time and request another time. (We usually allow 2 re-arrangements (although the second one is quite grudging) but at the third request for a re-arrangement, we would go ahead without the person being there.)
(Taking off HR hat now...)
Or you could just tell them that your union representative / colleague, etc, is unable to attend at that time and request another time. (We usually allow 2 re-arrangements (although the second one is quite grudging) but at the third request for a re-arrangement, we would go ahead without the person being there.)
Regardless of the contract it would be seen as bad practice if at tribunal it appeared that they had made it awkward for you to attend for no reason. Equally inviting by voicemail giving a couple of working days notice is bad practice, in writing with at least 5 working days notice is expected.
c8bof said:
Could you ask if your working hours could be amended for that day to fit round the time of the meeting? I take it they know your working hours and how far you have to travel to get to work? It might well be they have struggled to get the necessary people together for a meeting at short-ish notice and this was the best they could do? Compromise on both sides is usually best though.
(Taking off HR hat now...)
Or you could just tell them that your union representative / colleague, etc, is unable to attend at that time and request another time. (We usually allow 2 re-arrangements (although the second one is quite grudging) but at the third request for a re-arrangement, we would go ahead without the person being there.)
As an employer rather than employee I would quite expect to be told where to get off if I were to arrange a disciplinary meeting outside of the employees working hours. 're-arrangements' is cobblers, you are either available at work or not. I understand a non attendee for sickness or similar but this is someone who is fully expecting to turn up for work.(Taking off HR hat now...)
Or you could just tell them that your union representative / colleague, etc, is unable to attend at that time and request another time. (We usually allow 2 re-arrangements (although the second one is quite grudging) but at the third request for a re-arrangement, we would go ahead without the person being there.)
MOTORVATOR said:
As an employer rather than employee I would quite expect to be told where to get off if I were to arrange a disciplinary meeting outside of the employees working hours. 're-arrangements' is cobblers, you are either available at work or not. I understand a non attendee for sickness or similar but this is someone who is fully expecting to turn up for work.
Agree, I wouldn't be arranging a meeting like this outside of the person's working hours - if I could possibly help it - which is why I was asking the questions did they know his hours of work and where he had to travel from? Sorry - I'm trying to understand where the employer is coming from with this.Re. re-arrangements - yes, these are reasonable in certain circumstances - a person has a right to be accompanied and if they can't get their 'accompanying person' (for want of a better word) to be available at the time requested, it is considered reasonable to re-arrange. I've had to do this a few times in the past, on the advice of our legal people.
HR hat most definitely off now and going for beer
During your "normal" working hours or not at all....
b
ks to em, expecting you in at a time convenient to them is bullshine. They don't own you (no matter what they like to think) so if they want to discipline you, its a work matter so its most definitely during YOUR working hours.
oh, and just to clarify - I'm most normally in the pro sack em camp, but in this case HR are wrong.
b
ks to em, expecting you in at a time convenient to them is bullshine. They don't own you (no matter what they like to think) so if they want to discipline you, its a work matter so its most definitely during YOUR working hours.oh, and just to clarify - I'm most normally in the pro sack em camp, but in this case HR are wrong.
davepoth said:
Send them a letter, explaining that you are terribly sorry, but you are busy at that point, and suggest that they provide a new date in writing. Make them do everything in writing, it's very important.
+1 on thisAny discussion that has the chance of legal consequence (especially when your livelihood is in the balance) should be in writing only
I would be deeply suspicous that either
a) They know this full well and are trying it on in the hope they can catch you out
b) your HR department are incompetent in the extreme and should be sacked themselves
In any issue like this there is the legal position, good practice and gut reaction. Unfortunately gut reactions of the 'tell them to stuff it' variety are sometimes at odds with the law and good practice.
In this case it is good practice to invite the employee to a meeting in writing and giving 5 working days notice and for that meeting to be in the employees working hours. Whilst not illegal to give less notice or do it verbally it's not going to impress a tribunal that the employer acted reasonably doing it that way.
If it is not possible to hold a meeting at a convenient time for all parties then whether it can be held out of the employee's working hours depends on their contract. If there is no provision in the contract for the employer to require you to work out of normal hours then the employer can't insist on the meeting being out of hours. However if there is a provision to work other hours then they could insist on it being our of hours, but again it's not likely to go down well with a tribunal if they insist on it.
Much on employment law in practice is about procedure, an employer who follows procedure to the letter and acts reasonably has little to fear, it is employers who do dumb things like insisting on holding meetings out of hours who come to grief.
Of course the reality here is that the nature of the offense and the desired outcome matter. If the offense was minor and you want it forgotten about asap then don't make a fuss and go with the flow. But if this is part of a bigger battle that may end at tribunal request that the meeting is held in your working hours and make the request in writing. They will then either move the meeting or have a black mark against them at tribunal.
In this case it is good practice to invite the employee to a meeting in writing and giving 5 working days notice and for that meeting to be in the employees working hours. Whilst not illegal to give less notice or do it verbally it's not going to impress a tribunal that the employer acted reasonably doing it that way.
If it is not possible to hold a meeting at a convenient time for all parties then whether it can be held out of the employee's working hours depends on their contract. If there is no provision in the contract for the employer to require you to work out of normal hours then the employer can't insist on the meeting being out of hours. However if there is a provision to work other hours then they could insist on it being our of hours, but again it's not likely to go down well with a tribunal if they insist on it.
Much on employment law in practice is about procedure, an employer who follows procedure to the letter and acts reasonably has little to fear, it is employers who do dumb things like insisting on holding meetings out of hours who come to grief.
Of course the reality here is that the nature of the offense and the desired outcome matter. If the offense was minor and you want it forgotten about asap then don't make a fuss and go with the flow. But if this is part of a bigger battle that may end at tribunal request that the meeting is held in your working hours and make the request in writing. They will then either move the meeting or have a black mark against them at tribunal.
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