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Dr Banjo

465 posts

66 months

Friday 20th April 2012
quotequote all
Hooli said:
You mean something as stupid as ordering them without any guns fitted?
Agreed, if I was a Typhoon jock a cannon would provide some contingency and reassurance.

If the engagement looks like going WVR then either bug out or put your faith in the ASRAAM.

What other choice would the jock have ?



Edited by Dr Banjo on Friday 20th April 11:00

andymadmak

8,761 posts

187 months

Friday 20th April 2012
quotequote all
Dr Banjo said:
Hooli said:
You mean something as stupid as ordering them without any guns fitted?
Agreed, if I was a Typhoon jock a cannon would provide some contingency and reassurance.

If the engagement looks like going WVR then either bug out or put your faith in the ASRAAM.

What other choice would the jock have ?



Edited by Dr Banjo on Friday 20th April 11:00
Although the RAF wanted theirs without guns, I was told, on this very forum no less, that RAF Typhoons actually DO have the Mauser cannon fitted after all - it was cheaper to leave it in apparently. Happy to be corrected (again! hehe )

Here is some evidence from the Telegraph

2006 Telegraph article said:
12:01AM BST 03 Oct 2006





The RAF has been forced into an embarrassing U-turn on its policy of not allowing pilots of the new Eurofighter Typhoon to fire their gun.


The service has decided to issue ammunition to future Typhoon squadrons and train pilots in using the fighter's single German-made 27mm Mauser cannon, reversing its cost-cutting edict.


The decision follows experience in Afghanistan showing that guns are still one of the most effective weapons when supporting ground troops.


In a scathing e-mail, a Parachute Regiment major commanding an isolated outpost described air support from RAF Harriers, which have no guns and rely on rockets, as "utterly, utterly useless".


He contrasted their performance with the support offered by US air force A10 aircraft, which are equipped with a 27mm rotary cannon.


At a conference last week, Air Vice-Marshal David Walker, the officer commanding No 1 Group, which includes the Harrier and the newly-forming Typhoon squadrons, said he had decided to proceed with the Typhoon gun, buying ammunition, spares and maintenance equipment.

Seven years ago, the ministry decided to dispense with the gun on all but the first 55 of the 232 Typhoons planned for RAF service, in contrast to the other nations in the Eurofighter consortium, which kept it on all ordered aircraft.

The experts argued that Typhoon did not need anything as crude as a gun. The plan would have saved the taxpayer about £90 million.

But Typhoon is designed to such fine specifications that the loss of the gun created a weight imbalance and it was finally realised that the cheaper and easier option would be to fit a real cannon.
Edited by andymadmak on Friday 20th April 11:27

Dr Banjo

465 posts

66 months

Friday 20th April 2012
quotequote all
andymadmak said:
Although the RAF wanted theirs without guns, I was told, on this very forum no less, that RAF Typhoons actually DO have the Mauser cannon fitted after all - it was cheaper to leave it in apparently. Happy to be corrected (again! hehe )
Yeah,, i thought they had them fitted but went along with the flow.nono

It states they have the mauser on the raf web site as well.

So thats alright then. I wont lose too much sleep tonight worrying about Typhoons lack of WVR dogfight ability.


Edited by Dr Banjo on Friday 20th April 11:30

Asterix

24,438 posts

145 months

Friday 20th April 2012
quotequote all

Bedazzled

13,159 posts

138 months

Friday 20th April 2012
quotequote all
davepoth said:
The Typhoon has the performance to mean that it won't get into a turning fight with an F-16 unless the ROEs require it, bearing in mind that a Typhoon can go faster than the maximum afterburning speed of the F-16 without having to use 100% of dry thrust.
I agree, but it depends on the skill and discipline of the pilots, if the enemy has better training they'll drag you into a turning fight before you know it. The Typhoon wasn't designed exclusively for BVR, it was designed as an interceptor with high speed maneuverability, and I expect it's very capable at higher speeds.

There seems to be an assumption on here that every BVR missile fired by a Typhoon or Daring will hit its target; I wonder what the success rate would be in reality?
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Ian Lancs

814 posts

83 months

Friday 20th April 2012
quotequote all
fandango_c said:
CBR JGWRR said:
And eurofighters don't have that many seconds worth of bullets.
RAF ones have zero seconds of bullets mad
bks.
All Typhoons are fitted with a gun, which is loaded when required (which includes QRA)

steviegunn

1,145 posts

101 months

Friday 20th April 2012
quotequote all
andymadmak said:
Dr Banjo said:
Hooli said:
You mean something as stupid as ordering them without any guns fitted?
Agreed, if I was a Typhoon jock a cannon would provide some contingency and reassurance.

If the engagement looks like going WVR then either bug out or put your faith in the ASRAAM.

What other choice would the jock have ?



Edited by Dr Banjo on Friday 20th April 11:00
Although the RAF wanted theirs without guns, I was told, on this very forum no less, that RAF Typhoons actually DO have the Mauser cannon fitted after all - it was cheaper to leave it in apparently. Happy to be corrected (again! hehe )

Here is some evidence from the Telegraph

2006 Telegraph article said:
12:01AM BST 03 Oct 2006

The experts argued that Typhoon did not need anything as crude as a gun. The plan would have saved the taxpayer about £90 million.

But Typhoon is designed to such fine specifications that the loss of the gun created a weight imbalance and it was finally realised that the cheaper and easier option would be to fit a real cannon.
Edited by andymadmak on Friday 20th April 11:27
The "experts" are fkwits and should be ignored and sacked, have they not heard what happened to the F4 Phantom in Vietnam, the US have learnt the lesson and have even put a 20mm Vulcan cannon on the Raptor.

BruceV8

3,208 posts

164 months

Friday 20th April 2012
quotequote all
Some 'experts' have a habit of making unfounded assumptions on how future wars will be fought. I recently one such 'expert' saying that future campaigns wouldn't be fought with IEDs. These were the same people that said Iraq and Afghanistan wouldn't be fought with IEDs, although anyone with an appreciation of recent military campaigns world-wide could have told them that there was a very good chance that they would be. I can't say for certain how the next war will be fought but a good way of making an assessment is looking at the way previous ones have been fought.

D1ngd0ng

1,011 posts

82 months

Friday 20th April 2012
quotequote all
BruceV8 said:
Some 'experts' have a habit of making unfounded assumptions on how future wars will be fought. I recently one such 'expert' saying that future campaigns wouldn't be fought with IEDs. These were the same people that said Iraq and Afghanistan wouldn't be fought with IEDs, although anyone with an appreciation of recent military campaigns world-wide could have told them that there was a very good chance that they would be. I can't say for certain how the next war will be fought but a good way of making an assessment is looking at the way previous ones have been fought.
IEDs are cheap and work; who wouldn't want to use them?

BruceV8

3,208 posts

164 months

Friday 20th April 2012
quotequote all
D1ngd0ng said:
IEDs are cheap and work; who wouldn't want to use them?
Quite. And while I'm no aviation expert, I'd suggest the same point stands about guns on aircraft.

fandango_c

1,431 posts

103 months

Friday 20th April 2012
quotequote all
Ian Lancs said:
fandango_c said:
CBR JGWRR said:
And eurofighters don't have that many seconds worth of bullets.
RAF ones have zero seconds of bullets mad
bks.
All Typhoons are fitted with a gun, which is loaded when required (which includes QRA)
Fair enough. I hadn't realised that the RAF had changed their mind from their original decision to not have a cannon.

Ayahuasca

20,338 posts

196 months

Saturday 21st April 2012
quotequote all
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/921...

Interesting that we have an official plan for 'recapturing the Falklands after a successful Argentine invasion'...




Ian Lancs

814 posts

83 months

Saturday 21st April 2012
quotequote all
fandango_c said:
Ian Lancs said:
fandango_c said:
CBR JGWRR said:
And eurofighters don't have that many seconds worth of bullets.
RAF ones have zero seconds of bullets mad
bks.
All Typhoons are fitted with a gun, which is loaded when required (which includes QRA)
Fair enough. I hadn't realised that the RAF had changed their mind from their original decision to not have a cannon.
Sorry I may have been a bit harsh.
The story goes...
Typhoon originally designed with a cannon (same one as fitted to Tornado). MoD ops requirements then decided that they didn't need one as any future air war would be fought outside the range of a gun - no thoughts given to air to surface strafing. Unfortunately, the Flight Control System needs to know exactly what weight is where on the aircraft, so removing the gun may have saved the cost of buying the gun, but then we either had to rewrite all the flying control software (kerching!) or replace it with ballast (concrete was talked about in the press).
Thankfully after a bit of "discussion" the gun was refitted.

Dr Banjo

465 posts

66 months

Saturday 21st April 2012
quotequote all
Ayahuasca said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/921...

Interesting that we have an official plan for 'recapturing the Falklands after a successful Argentine invasion'...
Oooh I would give a tenner to see those "Recapture The Falklands Plans". coffee

Especially as we have no carrier. Alot of responsibility on the Type 45 captains perhaps ?

Edited by Dr Banjo on Saturday 21st April 11:44

CBR JGWRR

6,447 posts

66 months

Saturday 21st April 2012
quotequote all
Ian Lancs said:
fandango_c said:
CBR JGWRR said:
And eurofighters don't have that many seconds worth of bullets.
RAF ones have zero seconds of bullets mad
bks.
All Typhoons are fitted with a gun, which is loaded when required (which includes QRA)
RAF ones do have cannons fitted - I've replaced the cover on one myself, and I've seen the operational bit the pilot uses. (The cover was then taken off and redone by a RAF bloke, but that's an aside. On work experience at a RAF base, as to why/how.)

Edit: I've signed the official secrets act - I'm probably not even allowed to say they have the cannon...

10 Pence Short

32,880 posts

134 months

Saturday 21st April 2012
quotequote all
Just tell them you meant a camera.

CBR JGWRR

6,447 posts

66 months

Saturday 21st April 2012
quotequote all
10 Pence Short said:
Just tell them you meant a camera.
Yeah, but they do have cameras...

IanMorewood

4,309 posts

165 months

Saturday 21st April 2012
quotequote all
CBR JGWRR said:
Yeah, but they do have cameras...
You didnt mean cameras either did you or cannons you where on about the wings I think.

CBR JGWRR

6,447 posts

66 months

Saturday 21st April 2012
quotequote all
IanMorewood said:
CBR JGWRR said:
Yeah, but they do have cameras...
You didnt mean cameras either did you or cannons you were on about the wings I think.
wink

I guess I can say they have a cannon, just nothing technical.

Dr Banjo

465 posts

66 months

Saturday 21st April 2012
quotequote all
CBR JGWRR said:
IanMorewood said:
CBR JGWRR said:
Yeah, but they do have cameras...
You didnt mean cameras either did you or cannons you were on about the wings I think.
wink

I guess I can say they have a cannon, just nothing technical.
Can you picture it ...

Conflict where some poor jock is relying on the Typhoon cannon/camera

In your lifetime ?

rofl

Edited by Dr Banjo on Saturday 21st April 22:54