These self parking cars - who's liable?

[300bhp/ton]

As accidents can and do happen, where does your responsibility as a driver start and end with these cars that can self parallel park?

If you are not in fully in control of the vehicle, are you really 'driving'? So can you be liable should something happen?

[sjg]

They all require you to be covering the brake. Responsibility for checking the path remains clear and the car isn't going to hit something stays with the driver.

[falkster]

It will always be the drivers fault. If, like you say, an incident did occur. The driver won't have positioned themselves correctly for the car to do its bit.
Unless, of course, there can be a fault proven in the parking system or the braking system.

[otolith]

falkster said:

Unless, of course, there can be a fault proven in the parking system or the braking system.

Even then, I suspect the driver's insurance would have to cover the costs and would then need to try to get them back from the manufacturer. Not likely to happen.

[SWoll]

You are. Your choice to use the system, you're in charge of the vehicle so your responsibility to ensure it operates correctly.

Did you think other drivers would be able to claim against Ford if the Focus you were driving hit a parked car?

[Chris71]

sjg said:

They all require you to be covering the brake.

Same goes for adaptive cruise etc. It should be viewed as a driver aid - like ESP - not a replacement for the nut behind the wheel.

Have to confess I've never really tested an auto park system. The other night we saw an ad for a car with self parking and my missus commented that the demonstration in the ad featured a huge gap that any numptie could park in. Quite intrigued to hear how these work in central London where people seemingly only need a space about 4" bigger than the car itself.

[falkster]

otolith said:

Even then, I suspect the driver's insurance would have to cover the costs and would then need to try to get them back from the manufacturer. Not likely to happen.

I suppose using the braking system as an example was poor because they are a fail safe if the driver wasn't paying attention so if anything did happen it is purely down to driver negligence and not a system failure.

[300bhp/ton]

SWoll said:

You are. Your choice to use the system, you're in charge of the vehicle so your responsibility to ensure it operates correctly.

Did you think other drivers would be able to claim against Ford if the Focus you were driving hit a parked car?

I was asking out of interest. Because taking your phrase "you're in charge of the vehicle", is this actually true? The whole idea of these systems is you let the car take charge and tell you it's clear and decides for you where to steer.

So if the system says it's ok and it then steers you into something, are you truly responsible?

I suppose on a similar line of thinking, if in a jetliner the autopilot system makes a wrong decision, is this really pilot error? Sure the pilot might try and recover the situation, but is it their fault that such a situation arose?

I know there is a point of using common sense, but do you not find it remotely interesting that as an individual you could be held responsible for a computer error? Have you never had Windows or your mobile phone crash? If so, was it your fault they crashed?

The difference is, in a car the computer is controlling a moving object that can potentially become very dangerous. Or on a lesser scale still cause damage to other peoples property.

[sjg]

Chris71 said:

Have to confess I've never really tested an auto park system. The other night we saw an ad for a car with self parking and my missus commented that the demonstration in the ad featured a huge gap that any numptie could park in. Quite intrigued to hear how these work in central London where people seemingly only need a space about 4" bigger than the car itself.

A mate has it on his Tiguan and it works pretty well. I think the VAG system needs about 1.2 times the length of the car (it measures as you go past the space and decides if it'll fit) so just under 18" each end. It would certainly be possible to park in tighter spaces, but it is pretty good at doing parallel parking quickly and accurately, in one sweep. Probably better than than most people who don't practice it every day - you see them get half in then shuffle back and forth repeatedly to get it closer to the kerb.

[ewenm]

300bhp/ton said:

SWoll said:

You are. Your choice to use the system, you're in charge of the vehicle so your responsibility to ensure it operates correctly.

Did you think other drivers would be able to claim against Ford if the Focus you were driving hit a parked car?

I was asking out of interest. Because taking your phrase "you're in charge of the vehicle", is this actually true? The whole idea of these systems is you let the car take charge and tell you it's clear and decides for you where to steer.

So if the system says it's ok and it then steers you into something, are you truly responsible?

I suppose on a similar line of thinking, if in a jetliner the autopilot system makes a wrong decision, is this really pilot error? Sure the pilot might try and recover the situation, but is it their fault that such a situation arose?

I know there is a point of using common sense, but do you not find it remotely interesting that as an individual you could be held responsible for a computer error? Have you never had Windows or your mobile phone crash? If so, was it your fault they crashed?

The difference is, in a car the computer is controlling a moving object that can potentially become very dangerous. Or on a lesser scale still cause damage to other peoples property.

Given that "you're in charge of the vehicle" even if you're just using it as a place to sleep off a night on the beers rather than driving home drunk, then I suspect there's little legal doubt that you'd be in charge of a self-parking car.

[Jayho]

I always thought, by law, that if the key was in the ignition then you are in operation of the vehicle? So therefore anything happening while the vehicle is under your operation it would be yourself who was liable?

[essayer]

How is "self park" any different to a steering wheel or brake/accelerator interface?

You control it with your hands, feet and brain. If you get it wrong, tough st

[300bhp/ton]

essayer said:

You control it with your hands, feet and brain. If you get it wrong, tough st

???

You don't. That's the point, the car steers itself, you are not deciding where it goes.

[300bhp/ton]

Jayho said:

I always thought, by law, that if the key was in the ignition then you are in operation of the vehicle? So therefore anything happening while the vehicle is under your operation it would be yourself who was liable?

I guess these new keyless cars would not apply then

[ewenm]

300bhp/ton said:

essayer said:

You control it with your hands, feet and brain. If you get it wrong, tough st

???

You don't. That's the point, the car steers itself, you are not deciding where it goes.

You can stop it at any point. You have decided to initiate an automated set of moves. You are in charge and yet have decided to cede control to the computer for this set of moves. You are responsible for making sure it doesn't cock up.

If the driver doesn't like this, just park the damn thing themself!

[TheHeretic]

300bhp/ton said:

???

You don't. That's the point, the car steers itself, you are not deciding where it goes.

You need your foot on the brake. You are deciding if it can move or not. Take some responsibility man!

[RJP001]

In law, I think the driver (or should they now be known as "operator" as they aren't really driving in this instance?), will be liable for any incident that may occur.

[Engineer1]

It is more like an Autobox, it makes decisions and alters settings based on a set of rules but you as the driver are still controlling the car. I am willing to bet that the software is written robustly with the requirements and capabilities run past numerous lawyers, and that the instructions for its use in the manual have also been run past lawyers to ensure the liability for failure will not fall on the car's manufacture, hell how it is allowed to be sold by authorised dealers is also likely to be massively controlled.

There is the apocryphal story about the Winnebago and cruise control, some people really are stupid enough to cock up and blame the equipment, look at drivers and SatNav.

[essayer]

300bhp/ton said:

???

You don't. That's the point, the car steers itself, you are not deciding where it goes.

But if you crash into a stationary car, without self-parking, there's no question that you are at fault - you couldn't, say, blame the engine which was propelling the car at the time (controlled by you)

[Oi U]

Is there any point in comparing a pilot's responsibility when using 'autoland' to that of a driver using 'self parking'?