Force Majeure - Flight Cancellation excuse

[RudeDog]

Hi,

I recently had a flight from London to San Francisco cancelled with United Airlines. They moved me on to a different flight later in the day but at the airport they provided me with a compensation claim form and advised that I would receive cash compensation for the deal under European Regulation EC261.

This morning, I've received a letter claiming that although they advised compensation was due at the time, they are now stating that the delay was unavoidable because it was a mechanical fault and all routine preventative maintenance had been performed on the aircraft, therefore the cancellation is deemed force majeure and compensation is not due.

I don't think a mechanical fault can be classed as force majeure can it? Any suggestions on the wording of my letter in response.

This affects 4 people in our group and we were advised that we would be due €600 each so its worth sending a letter.

Thanks

RD

[eldar]

How long were you delayed?

[tvrolet]

No help really, but I think you're screwed. We had a connecting flight from Edinburgh to LHR cancelled - and by coincidence connecting to a BA flight to SFO. Reason turned out to be the co-pilot was sick and they couldn't get a replacement up quick enough so we missed the SFO flight. Payment made for overnight accomidation and food, but this also fell foul of both the airline's and travel insurer's small print for compensation or repayment of 'lost' costs (I'd paid for an 'extra' night in SF, plus rental car got messed about etc). In terms of the travel insurer, once I explained the circumstances (ill crew) they said that if I'd said 'no idea, flight just cancelled' they'd have paid out, but as I'd spilled the beans on the reason it was force majeure and so no [re]payments or compensation for me. And also on my countless domestic delays the most I've ever got was a meal voucher.

[RudeDog]

eldar said:

How long were you delayed?

We were moved on to a flight that was scheduled to take off 3hrs 40mins later but was also delayed about an hour so all in all we had just under 5hrs delay.

I don't think this is relevant to their decision to pay or not though. My understanding is that the length of the delay only affects the value of the payout.

[grumpyscot]

I'm surprised Ryanair have never used this excuse to avoid paying out - or am I wrong?

[Mattt]

Do you know what kind of mechanical failure it was?

It's an interesting one though, force majeure generally applies to occurrences outside the control of a party. Your Airline is saying that they carried out all maintenance in accordance with their schedules and yet there was still a failure. One could argue that their maintenance schedules are therefore wrong.

[RudeDog]

Mattt said:

One could argue that their maintenance schedules are therefore wrong.

This was my initial thought. Force Majeure is usually described as an "Act of God" when you look up the meaning (e.g. Hurricane, Tidal Wave, Earthquake, etc). now I have an issue with the term "Act of God" but that's not really important here, the fact of the matter is, its supposed to be something that is completely out of the control of the carrier. An unforeseen mechanical failure of one plane could have been dealt with by sending a different plane if they couldn't resolve the issue. This might be a costly resolution for United but its something that would be well within their control/abilities.

They haven't explained what the fault, just that it didn't get picked up by routine maintenance.

[eldar]

RudeDog said:

We were moved on to a flight that was scheduled to take off 3hrs 40mins later but was also delayed about an hour so all in all we had just under 5hrs delay.

I don't think this is relevant to their decision to pay or not though. My understanding is that the length of the delay only affects the value of the payout.

So that would be compensation of £110/person/hour. That does seem rather generous, £180k for a fairly fully booked plane.

Is your expectation realistic?

[anonymous-user]

600 compensation for a 4 hour delay I have to think is a joke really considering the state of the world, but

''A December 2008 test case went some way to making the law clearer by ruling that technical faults, unless they stem from "events which, by their nature or origin, are not inherent in the normal exercise of the air carrier", DO NOT count as examples of extraordinary circumstances. In the past, airlines have routinely cited them as such to excuse themselves from paying out, so this is great news for consumers.''

So you are entitled to a claim as long as the fault matched the above, under “EU Regulation 261/2004” legislation, the same as the claims for whiplash.ppp etc,..

But at the moment the some airlines are appealing the law of compensating delayed passengers, (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18084849) so the full descion will be made towards the end of the 2012 so you can still claim, but whether you get a payout is dependent on many factors..

Edited by billybob69 on Saturday 26th May 15:17

[RudeDog]

eldar said:

So that would be compensation of £110/person/hour. That does seem rather generous, £180k for a fairly fully booked plane.

Is your expectation realistic?

Very realistic as set out by the EU Passenger Rights guidelines:

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passen...

More than 3500km and more than 4hours delayed.

I don't make the rules but thats what they are (I agree it seems excessive)

[Superbad]

You could give these guys a try.

http://www.euclaim.co.uk

[eldar]

RudeDog said:

Very realistic as set out by the EU Passenger Rights guidelines:

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passen...

More than 3500km and more than 4hours delayed.

I don't make the rules but thats what they are (I agree it seems excessive)

Interesting, thanks. If it actually operated as it seems to indicate - is there such a thing as 'EU LAW'? - that will have an effect on airfares!

[RudeDog]

I have drafted a letter to the CAA's Passenger Complaints department asking them for guidance. I'll scan in the letter and send it off to them expressing my dissatisfaction with United Airline's response. Further updates will be posted when I receive a response.

[HeatonNorris]

I wouldn't have even thought about claiming anything for that!

I'd expect the airline to provide refreshments at the airport, but I'd not have considered that I could claim anything for the delay.

[Pulse]

As someone above has said, this absolutely can't be classed as 'force majeure'.

[Manicminer]

Pulse said:

As someone above has said, this absolutely can't be classed as 'force majeure'.

The regulation doesn't use that term, it uses "exceptional circumstances". The airlines only lost their appeal against this EU reg this month so expect to see lots of barriers to any claims until someone is brave enough to fund another test case.

There was a case about 4 years ago which an airline lost but they all seem to be still swerving payouts wherever possible.

I'd be interested to see where you get with this, I imagine on a flight of 300 people many would just give us chasing for the compensation saving the airline thousands. The more hoops they make you jump through, the less likely you are to claim.

I work for an airline as an engineer and despite extremely rigid maintenance schedules things do still fail , even on new aircraft. Spares aren't always available meaning an aircraft change or lengthy delays. Its up to the courts to figure out if this is an exceptional circumstance or not on the merits of each individual case.

Keep us updated.

[Pulse]

Manicminer said:

The regulation doesn't use that term, it uses "exceptional circumstances".

Exactly right. If they've stated 'force majeure' as their reason, they are wrong.

Even the use of 'exceptional circumstances' is a bit dangerous, though it may provide safety through ambiguity; scaring off most consumers.

[Simon Brooks]

RudeDog said:

Mattt said:

One could argue that their maintenance schedules are therefore wrong.

This was my initial thought. Force Majeure is usually described as an "Act of God" when you look up the meaning (e.g. Hurricane, Tidal Wave, Earthquake, etc). now I have an issue with the term "Act of God" but that's not really important here, the fact of the matter is, its supposed to be something that is completely out of the control of the carrier. An unforeseen mechanical failure of one plane could have been dealt with by sending a different plane if they couldn't resolve the issue. This might be a costly resolution for United but its something that would be well within their control/abilities.

They haven't explained what the fault, just that it didn't get picked up by routine maintenance.

Act of god ............. Issue a lawsuit against the pope, he's the most senior representative

[RudeDog]

swerni said:

Simon Brooks said:

RudeDog said:

Mattt said:

One could argue that their maintenance schedules are therefore wrong.

This was my initial thought. Force Majeure is usually described as an "Act of God" when you look up the meaning (e.g. Hurricane, Tidal Wave, Earthquake, etc). now I have an issue with the term "Act of God" but that's not really important here, the fact of the matter is, its supposed to be something that is completely out of the control of the carrier. An unforeseen mechanical failure of one plane could have been dealt with by sending a different plane if they couldn't resolve the issue. This might be a costly resolution for United but its something that would be well within their control/abilities.

They haven't explained what the fault, just that it didn't get picked up by routine maintenance.

Act of god ............. Issue a lawsuit against the pope, he's the most senior representative

Err, that's a bit of an assumption

I agree, he is only the most senior representative of one of the cults.

[Simon Brooks]

RudeDog said:

swerni said:

Simon Brooks said:

RudeDog said:

Mattt said:

One could argue that their maintenance schedules are therefore wrong.

This was my initial thought. Force Majeure is usually described as an "Act of God" when you look up the meaning (e.g. Hurricane, Tidal Wave, Earthquake, etc). now I have an issue with the term "Act of God" but that's not really important here, the fact of the matter is, its supposed to be something that is completely out of the control of the carrier. An unforeseen mechanical failure of one plane could have been dealt with by sending a different plane if they couldn't resolve the issue. This might be a costly resolution for United but its something that would be well within their control/abilities.

They haven't explained what the fault, just that it didn't get picked up by routine maintenance.

Act of god ............. Issue a lawsuit against the pope, he's the most senior representative

Err, that's a bit of an assumption

I agree, he is only the most senior representative of one of the cults.

It was a joke guys and a reference to the Billy Connolly film, the man who sued god