Do you need free weights or are machines as good?
Discussion
Over the last couple of months I have joined a gym and started working out 3 times a week to try & gain some muscle mass.
I'm currently just using machines in a circuit at the max weight I can do for 5 reps and then repeating 5 circuits.
Not sure on the proper names but the machines are (in the order I normally do them):
Bench press
Pec deck thingy (backwards & forwards)
Seated row
tricep extension? (straighten your arm in a stabbing motion)
bicep curl
overhead press
weighted sit-up machine
A few questions:
As a routine how does this sounds (other than being light on leg work!)?
Is it worth moving to free weights or do you get the same benefits from machines (I normally work out on my own so am slightly concerned about the weights without a spotter)?
The above takes about 25 mins - most other people seem to be there a lot longer - do I need to put more time or is it just that they like chatting?
I'm currently just using machines in a circuit at the max weight I can do for 5 reps and then repeating 5 circuits.
Not sure on the proper names but the machines are (in the order I normally do them):
Bench press
Pec deck thingy (backwards & forwards)
Seated row
tricep extension? (straighten your arm in a stabbing motion)
bicep curl
overhead press
weighted sit-up machine
A few questions:
As a routine how does this sounds (other than being light on leg work!)?
Is it worth moving to free weights or do you get the same benefits from machines (I normally work out on my own so am slightly concerned about the weights without a spotter)?
The above takes about 25 mins - most other people seem to be there a lot longer - do I need to put more time or is it just that they like chatting?
It's kind of swings and roundabouts. I would say free weights are better for the needs you state, 'muscle mass'. But you need to perform them with good form, whereas the machines cheat this for you. There are one or two machines that are better from a bodybuilding pump sort of view, but for building the mass first, free is best.
The best building exercises for the mass would be squats and deadlifts, and these two lifts are more technical than people might think. If you wish to remain injury free.
The 5x5 program for beginners here is still one of the best routines for beginners to get it right first time I think. After a few months you can then adapt it or look at other routines even.
A few big names agree that the five core lifts are; Squats, deadlifts, overhead press, bench press and power clean.
There is a thread called what have you done today, it contributions from the main lifters who post and offer advice in this forum. Any tips or help on technique can be sought there. There are some good vids on squats and the rest to be directed to.
It's possible your gum has some good PTs in it, it's also possible they may not be able to help you with getting the lifts right.
The best building exercises for the mass would be squats and deadlifts, and these two lifts are more technical than people might think. If you wish to remain injury free.
The 5x5 program for beginners here is still one of the best routines for beginners to get it right first time I think. After a few months you can then adapt it or look at other routines even.
A few big names agree that the five core lifts are; Squats, deadlifts, overhead press, bench press and power clean.
There is a thread called what have you done today, it contributions from the main lifters who post and offer advice in this forum. Any tips or help on technique can be sought there. There are some good vids on squats and the rest to be directed to.
It's possible your gum has some good PTs in it, it's also possible they may not be able to help you with getting the lifts right.
The issue with exclusively using machines is that you end up with a very unbalanced strength. Your core muscles will be very strong, but the smaller balancing muscles will be weak.
Machines are very good for isolation exercises, but they are not developing your supporter muscles. This can lead to a chance of injury down the line when you're trying to move around big weights and something like a rotator cuff lets go.
It's much better to balance free weights and machines. If you're worried about being sans spotter then use dumbells instead of a barbell.
Also, have a read of this, it should improve your routine if you want to do Full body workout, rather than a split routine.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/iovate5.htm
You mention about doing a routine? You should do your sets for each exercise and then move on to the next.
So Bench press - all your sets then move on, keep your rest to a maximum of 60 - 90 seconds between sets and then move on to the next exercise. Leave 2 - 3 minutes between exercises.
Machines are very good for isolation exercises, but they are not developing your supporter muscles. This can lead to a chance of injury down the line when you're trying to move around big weights and something like a rotator cuff lets go.
It's much better to balance free weights and machines. If you're worried about being sans spotter then use dumbells instead of a barbell.
Also, have a read of this, it should improve your routine if you want to do Full body workout, rather than a split routine.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/iovate5.htm
You mention about doing a routine? You should do your sets for each exercise and then move on to the next.
So Bench press - all your sets then move on, keep your rest to a maximum of 60 - 90 seconds between sets and then move on to the next exercise. Leave 2 - 3 minutes between exercises.
Edited by GBDG on Wednesday 30th May 10:18
shouldbworking said:
Used machines for a year or so before moving on to free weights. Thought id start off at slightly lower than I was doing on the machines. Failed. Revised that lower.. and lower.. and lower..
And therein lies some of the problem. Machines give you a false indication of your strength, rarely are the machines calibrated in any sensible manner. There is no way that our seated squat actually has 220+kg on it, or at least not when the various levers and things are taken into account.As Halb said, machines effectively "cheat" for you - they do take some of the load, and they don't put any stress on the supporting muscle groups, which will probably be painfully obvious when you first hit the free weights.
Although I do wonder if the cable based machines are a reasonable half way house; and then there's things like the Smith cage/machine that are probably some bizarre mix.
Cheers for the advice - looks like I should be manning up and picking up the free weights with the bigger boys.
Out of interest why should you 'do your sets for each exercise and then move on to the next':
I currently do a 5 circuits (a la circuit training) - effectively meaning I have no rest before continuing exercise but 5 mins before the next set of the specific machine - this means I can be out of the gym super quick (~25 mins)!
If I did the same routine but focussed on each exercise separately (leaving a 2 min rest gap between each set as mentioned above) it would take approx 10 mins per exercise - almost 4 times as long in total ~80 mins.
Is this necessary? - not saying it isn't (I haven't got a clue) but it seems like a lot of sitting around listening to poor music when I'm supposed to be at work!
Out of interest why should you 'do your sets for each exercise and then move on to the next':
I currently do a 5 circuits (a la circuit training) - effectively meaning I have no rest before continuing exercise but 5 mins before the next set of the specific machine - this means I can be out of the gym super quick (~25 mins)!
If I did the same routine but focussed on each exercise separately (leaving a 2 min rest gap between each set as mentioned above) it would take approx 10 mins per exercise - almost 4 times as long in total ~80 mins.
Is this necessary? - not saying it isn't (I haven't got a clue) but it seems like a lot of sitting around listening to poor music when I'm supposed to be at work!
Again it depends. There are no closed answers here.
You can keep to the circuit style if you like. It is time efficient...if you can hack it and keep good form.
I used to mix up my dips/press-ups/heaves with pyramids but it killed me. I split them now.
If you are using sufficient enough weight to attain your goals and keeping form then you can still do it. But it is a killer. It depends how hard mentally you are willing to push yourself. Most people cannot, because that is not what turns them on in the gym. If you are after mass first I would say split them first, I reckon there will be a tendency to keep the weights at a level that allows you to keep the circuit but not be the best for mass gain.
Also I would add that separating them would be better suited to pushing the weight up, which again leads to your goals.
You can keep to the circuit style if you like. It is time efficient...if you can hack it and keep good form.
I used to mix up my dips/press-ups/heaves with pyramids but it killed me. I split them now.
If you are using sufficient enough weight to attain your goals and keeping form then you can still do it. But it is a killer. It depends how hard mentally you are willing to push yourself. Most people cannot, because that is not what turns them on in the gym. If you are after mass first I would say split them first, I reckon there will be a tendency to keep the weights at a level that allows you to keep the circuit but not be the best for mass gain.
Also I would add that separating them would be better suited to pushing the weight up, which again leads to your goals.
DazedandConfused said:
Cheers for the advice - looks like I should be manning up and picking up the free weights with the bigger boys.
Out of interest why should you 'do your sets for each exercise and then move on to the next':
I currently do a 5 circuits (a la circuit training) - effectively meaning I have no rest before continuing exercise but 5 mins before the next set of the specific machine - this means I can be out of the gym super quick (~25 mins)!
If I did the same routine but focussed on each exercise separately (leaving a 2 min rest gap between each set as mentioned above) it would take approx 10 mins per exercise - almost 4 times as long in total ~80 mins.
Is this necessary? - not saying it isn't (I haven't got a clue) but it seems like a lot of sitting around listening to poor music when I'm supposed to be at work!
If you're interested in growing muscle then doing concurrent sets has a few benefits, such as stretching the fascia if the muscle and i believe it's more effecrive with breaking down the muscle fibre. Out of interest why should you 'do your sets for each exercise and then move on to the next':
I currently do a 5 circuits (a la circuit training) - effectively meaning I have no rest before continuing exercise but 5 mins before the next set of the specific machine - this means I can be out of the gym super quick (~25 mins)!
If I did the same routine but focussed on each exercise separately (leaving a 2 min rest gap between each set as mentioned above) it would take approx 10 mins per exercise - almost 4 times as long in total ~80 mins.
Is this necessary? - not saying it isn't (I haven't got a clue) but it seems like a lot of sitting around listening to poor music when I'm supposed to be at work!
The other big reason is injury prevention. Ideally you want to build up the muscle group to a heavier set. You're allowing the muscle to rest, meaning you have a higher chance of injury.
As with most things, it depends on your goals. If you've got access to a decent range of Hammer Strength plate loaded machines then I reckon you could build a decent physique. You may not get as much functional strength but who cares if your main objective is to simply look good.
I personally prefer performing compound movements with free weights but I make use of machines also.
I personally prefer performing compound movements with free weights but I make use of machines also.
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