VHF radio/flares

[mcdjl]

I've been talked into doing some kayak safety for a triathlon which will start with a loch swim. I've just been told that we will need to supply a VHF radio/flares so that we can talk to helicopters/lifeboats if need be. Up until this point I'd been working on the assumption that anyone mental enough to do this triathlon won't be struggling with the swim, or they really shouldn't be entering, however this appears not to be the case.
As sea kayaking isn't normally my area I don't have need for a VHF radio/flares in the normal running of things and non of my friends have them either. A quick look online suggests prices that I really don't want to spend for a one use buy (£60+ for the radio). The flares at £10ish upwards are more justifiable...fireworks right?
Can anyone suggest where I might be able to acquire some from cheap within the next 4 days? (or a shop to buy them from in, well most of Scotland, in the week following)

[Fittster]

What do you intend to do with the flares after your trip? Disposal can be a bit of a pain.

You'll need a license for VHF.

[mcdjl]

Fittster said:

What do you intend to do with the flares after your trip? Disposal can be a bit of a pain.

You'll need a license for VHF.

No chance of getting a licence then. I intend to keep the flares, or let them off in my back garden if all else fails!

[Loaf]

http://www.adecmarine.co.uk/product_details.asp?p=...

They deliver. DO NOT go to sea without a lifejacket & some means of contacting shore - and this doesn't include a mobile, as the signal is often ste even 100yds offshore. You need a VHF (preferably) or these flares as a minimum. If space is at a premium then mini flares are good but cost £50-£60.

Sorry to sound all hall-monitory but I'm a Coastguard Rescue Officer and if I had a fiver for every time I've bked given safety advice to some fozy cucking dunt who's spent £000's on a boat/board and hasn't bothered with £100 for a lifejacket and £50 for a pack of mini flares, I'd be living in Sandbanks by now.

[Fittster]

mcdjl said:

Fittster said:

What do you intend to do with the flares after your trip? Disposal can be a bit of a pain.

You'll need a license for VHF.

No chance of getting a licence then. I intend to keep the flares, or let them off in my back garden if all else fails!

It's really not sensible to let them off in your back garden but they have an expiry date after which you should dispose of them. Trouble is finding organisation who are willing to accept them can be a pain. If you are a member of a club, id try and borrow some flares for the weekend and return them when you're finished with them.

http://www.rya.org.uk/infoadvice/regssafety/saftey...

[chris.mapey]

I'd be concerned about that requirement & contact the organisers for clarification.

I've just had to undergo an RYA VHF Certificate of Competence course to enable me licence and buy a marine VHF - £100 for the course, £30 for the exam, free Ofcom registration online & then £80-300 for the VHF set...

Flares may be the easiest option for you

[mcdjl]

Loaf said:

http://www.adecmarine.co.uk/product_details.asp?p=...

They deliver. DO NOT go to sea without a lifejacket & some means of contacting shore - and this doesn't include a mobile, as the signal is often ste even 100yds offshore. You need a VHF (preferably) or these flares as a minimum. If space is at a premium then mini flares are good but cost £50-£60.

Sorry to sound all hall-monitory but I'm a Coastguard Rescue Officer and if I had a fiver for every time I've bked given safety advice to some fozy cucking dunt who's spent £000's on a boat/board and hasn't bothered with £100 for a lifejacket and £50 for a pack of mini flares, I'd be living in Sandbanks by now.

I was definitely planning on a buoyancy aid, I usually do even on a canal out of habit. I have no motor, only my arms. Being western Scotland i can imagine the phone signal being useless at the best of times, the area is surrounded by land on all sides though (but not land locked).

[Simpo Two]

Fittster said:

It's really not sensible to let them off in your back garden but they have an expiry date after which you should dispose of them.

November 5th should provide adequate 'cover'...

[Riff Raff]

chris.mapey said:

I'd be concerned about that requirement & contact the organisers for clarification.

I've just had to undergo an RYA VHF Certificate of Competence course to enable me licence and buy a marine VHF - £100 for the course, £30 for the exam, free Ofcom registration online & then £80-300 for the VHF set...

Flares may be the easiest option for you

If he tries to communicate with a SAR helicopter with a parachute flare, he might not be the most popular person on the water that day.......................

[mcdjl]

Riff Raff said:

If he tries to communicate with a SAR helicopter with a parachute flare, he might not be the most popular person on the water that day.......................

How about if I use a Chinese lantern instead....
My house otherwise is about as far from the sea as you can get (literally) so i won't get the coast guard out if i trigger a hand held one while bored. Would cheapy radios like these : http://www.twoway-radio.co.uk/trolleyed/27/index.h... be any use for talking to the coast guard or should i assume they're all UHF rather than VHF (aside from waterproof issues)

[MOTORVATOR]

chris.mapey said:

I'd be concerned about that requirement & contact the organisers for clarification.

I've just had to undergo an RYA VHF Certificate of Competence course to enable me licence and buy a marine VHF - £100 for the course, £30 for the exam, free Ofcom registration online & then £80-300 for the VHF set...

Flares may be the easiest option for you

Just to clarify there is no cost to licence a VHF set for a vessel online nor do you need a licence or certificate of competence to buy and install one.

The licence and operators certificate are two totally different things.

The licence is effectively registration of the set aboard and clarification of detail to which the call sign relates. As part of the terms of the licence you are responsible to ensure the set is generally only used by those in possession of a certificate of competence.

The certificate of competence allows the holder to utilise any communications set legally for non safety purposes (subject to bandings).

Also whilst the training authorities will tell you there are huge fines for using one without a certificate of competence, the legislation specifically excludes the monitoring of a vhf radio for safety purposes and use within a distress situation.

As you would expect really as you don't really want the Wife / Kid / Bit of totty standing there as you fall overboard thinking he told me I mustn't touch that thing.

And the huge fines we hear of? Well actually the authorities deal with the transgressions separately by way of fixed penalty of £100 at worst unless there is a very serious abuse issue in which case they will utilise the courts.

So to those that do the certifying, please be clearer that the authorities would much rather you have an unlicensed set utilised by a non trained operator than go to sea without.

[mcdjl]

MOTORVATOR said:

Just to clarify there is no cost to licence a VHF set for a vessel online nor do you need a licence or certificate of competence to buy and install one.

The licence and operators certificate are two totally different things.

The licence is effectively registration of the set aboard and clarification of detail to which the call sign relates. As part of the terms of the licence you are responsible to ensure the set is generally only used by those in possession of a certificate of competence.

The certificate of competence allows the holder to utilise any communications set legally for non safety purposes (subject to bandings).

Also whilst the training authorities will tell you there are huge fines for using one without a certificate of competence, the legislation specifically excludes the monitoring of a vhf radio for safety purposes and use within a distress situation.

As you would expect really as you don't really want the Wife / Kid / Bit of totty standing there as you fall overboard thinking he told me I mustn't touch that thing.

And the huge fines we hear of? Well actually the authorities deal with the transgressions separately by way of fixed penalty of £100 at worst unless there is a very serious abuse issue in which case they will utilise the courts.

So to those that do the certifying, please be clearer that the authorities would much rather you have an unlicensed set utilised by a non trained operator than go to sea without.

So if i buy the little hand held jobbies there no chance I'd need a licence at all? granted these seem to have a max range of around 8km so quite ho much use they'd really be in an emergency situation I don't know- beyond talking to someone nearby. Quite what other type I'll get in a kayak is also beyond me.

[mcdjl]

Sorry to be a pain

Are these VHF or UHF? http://www.play.com/Electronics/Electronics/4-/304...

[MOTORVATOR]

mcdjl said:

Sorry to be a pain

Are these VHF or UHF? http://www.play.com/Electronics/Electronics/4-/304...

You are looking at the wrong thing altogether. Nobody will hear you on the other end as they work on different frequencies, well possibly a forklift driver on the nearest building site but certainly nobody of interest on the water.

http://www.marinescene.co.uk/category/146/vhf-radi...

For a kayak, no you don't licence that but do licence the set as a personal set so that it is known as not specific to a vessel. This generally means your designated call sign has an extra letter added (T?) The chances of you getting fined are next to non existent as long as you use the radio correctly.

Bear in mind that all vhf radios generally work on line of sight with slightly less or more dependent on atmospheric conditions so kayak to kayak may be as little as 2 or 3 miles whilst kayak to Coastguard could be as much as 20 miles dependent on the height of the receiving antenna.

[Riff Raff]

mcdjl said:

Riff Raff said:

If he tries to communicate with a SAR helicopter with a parachute flare, he might not be the most popular person on the water that day.......................

How about if I use a Chinese lantern instead....
My house otherwise is about as far from the sea as you can get (literally) so i won't get the coast guard out if i trigger a hand held one while bored. Would cheapy radios like these : http://www.twoway-radio.co.uk/trolleyed/27/index.h... be any use for talking to the coast guard or should i assume they're all UHF rather than VHF (aside from waterproof issues)

Normally you would communicate with the coastguard/ SAR heli with a radio that has the marine channels on it.

Channel 16 for initial contact, and then a move to a working channel of their choice. For example, in the Solent that would normally be channel 67.

Here's the sort of thing

http://www.marinesuperstore.com/posit/shop/index.p...

but it is probably a bit expensive for a one off (as indeed will be the flares).

[tank slapper]

Handheld marine VHFs have limited range, because they have a small antenna that is close to the water. They also have a much lower power output than a fixed set. This might cause difficulties contacting anyone - remember that just because you can hear someone (like the coastguard with multiple aerials mounted high up on towers ashore) it doesn't mean they can hear you.

You might be better off trying to find a friendly person with a yacht or motorboat who is willing to anchor next to the course and act as a safety boat - they will have the ability to talk to the coastguard far more reliably. If you have an emergency, you don't want to find out at that point that what you have is insufficient. A local sailing club might be able to help you out.

If you have a vessel there, you can use whatever you like to talk to each other locally, with the vessel acting as a relay if it is necessary to ask for outside help.

[s2kjock]

Have you explained your predicament to the event organisers? They may have some spare - bit much to expect someone to have their own kit like this, unless it is normally sea kayakers that provide the safety.

Whereabouts on the west coast is it?

[chris123321]

On a side note, ive got a parachute flare here thats well out of date but obviously still dangerous, any chance of it going off randomly?

How the hell do i get rid of it? don't want to let it off as I live in a mountainous area and don't want someone thinking it's a climber in distress.

[tank slapper]

chris123321 said:

On a side note, ive got a parachute flare here thats well out of date but obviously still dangerous, any chance of it going off randomly?

How the hell do i get rid of it? don't want to let it off as I live in a mountainous area and don't want someone thinking it's a climber in distress.

Don't let it off, as it's actually illegal unless you are in distress. This link gives information on what to do: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Boa...

[Roop]

If you can't borrow a hand-held VHF radio, you could do a lot worse than one of the Chinese VHF units. Something like the Puxing PX-777 has 5W of power on VHF and is very low cost (I just bought one of the UHF versions for GBP 29.50 plus about a tenner P&P from eBay). It comes with a Li-Ion battery and a drop-in charger.

Get one of these, enter the International Marine Distress frequency (156.80 MHz IIRC), seal it inside a big ziploc bag and you're away.

I just wonder if it would arrive in time. Mine took a week.

If you are particularly concerned about whether the thing will work, speak to the local rescue organisation and request that you carry out a practise emergency call to test the range / operability of the radio. I am sure this must be possible (much like a practice pan on 121.5 for aircraft) I am sure they would oblige.