Discussion
Hello
After some advice from the font of PH etc..
I race bikes ( cycles ) and do i lot of hard training but diet is one area i've not paid much attention too..., i've been reading various stuff on the net and it seems you need around 3000-4000 + cals PER DAY
to back heavy training up, theres various breakdowns of carbs/protein/fat etc , i'm meant to be eating 700 + grams of carbs per day !? that alone = 3000 cals...
Anyway found this link which seemed good and also fired a few emails off to dietitian professionals, and awaiting info/costs
http://www.trinewbies.com/tno_wellness/tno_nutriti...
This was my food cal intake over the last few weeks ( after trimming crap and replacing with good food ) , after training i'm only left with as little as 1050 cals, which i guess is not doing me many favours...
23th - 1845 cals ( training - 800 )
24th - 2710 cals ( training - 1500 )
25th - 1890 cals REST
26th - 2400 cals ( training - 870 )
27th - 1970 REST
28th - 2700 cals ( training - 600 )
29th - 2250 cals REST
30th - 2460 ( training - 1175 )
1st - no log ( training - 1450 )
2nd - 1660 REST
3rd - 2200 ( training - 945 )
Looking @ above this was whats left per day taking training off..
23th - 1045
24th - 1210
25th - 1890 rest day
26th - 1530
27th - 1970 rest day
28th - 2100
29th -2250 rest day
30th - 1285
1st - 1200?
2nd - 1660 - rest day
3rd - 1255
Any active Athletes care to share their experience?
Cheers
After some advice from the font of PH etc..
I race bikes ( cycles ) and do i lot of hard training but diet is one area i've not paid much attention too..., i've been reading various stuff on the net and it seems you need around 3000-4000 + cals PER DAY
to back heavy training up, theres various breakdowns of carbs/protein/fat etc , i'm meant to be eating 700 + grams of carbs per day !? that alone = 3000 cals...
Anyway found this link which seemed good and also fired a few emails off to dietitian professionals, and awaiting info/costs
http://www.trinewbies.com/tno_wellness/tno_nutriti...
This was my food cal intake over the last few weeks ( after trimming crap and replacing with good food ) , after training i'm only left with as little as 1050 cals, which i guess is not doing me many favours...
23th - 1845 cals ( training - 800 )
24th - 2710 cals ( training - 1500 )
25th - 1890 cals REST
26th - 2400 cals ( training - 870 )
27th - 1970 REST
28th - 2700 cals ( training - 600 )
29th - 2250 cals REST
30th - 2460 ( training - 1175 )
1st - no log ( training - 1450 )
2nd - 1660 REST
3rd - 2200 ( training - 945 )
Looking @ above this was whats left per day taking training off..
23th - 1045
24th - 1210
25th - 1890 rest day
26th - 1530
27th - 1970 rest day
28th - 2100
29th -2250 rest day
30th - 1285
1st - 1200?
2nd - 1660 - rest day
3rd - 1255
Any active Athletes care to share their experience?
Cheers
Basically you're going to need to get seriously anal with your diet, following your diet and matching it up with your exercise. It's not how much you eat, but what and when.
If you're burning more than 1000 kcals in one exercise session you're going to need start taking on fast carbs while on the move.
You also need to find out what you BMR roughly is.
You need to plan to stock your glycogen stores before a session/race.
You need to work out where your calories are coming from in carbs, fat, protein. All are accessed in different ways, at different speeds.
You need to time your protein and carb type and ingestion with your routine - pre during and post exercise.
It kinda goes like this:
Carbs start starchy. The closer you get to exercise, the more sugary they get. During exercise, sugary. After exercise, sugary and the longer after exercise the more starchy they get.
Protein starts complex. Stop eating it about 1-2 hours before exercise. Do not eat protein during exercise. After exercise, simple BCAA proteins. The longer after exercise the more complex the protein gets.
edit: btw that article looks good and straight from the ACSM rule book.
If you're burning more than 1000 kcals in one exercise session you're going to need start taking on fast carbs while on the move.
You also need to find out what you BMR roughly is.
You need to plan to stock your glycogen stores before a session/race.
You need to work out where your calories are coming from in carbs, fat, protein. All are accessed in different ways, at different speeds.
You need to time your protein and carb type and ingestion with your routine - pre during and post exercise.
It kinda goes like this:
Carbs start starchy. The closer you get to exercise, the more sugary they get. During exercise, sugary. After exercise, sugary and the longer after exercise the more starchy they get.
Protein starts complex. Stop eating it about 1-2 hours before exercise. Do not eat protein during exercise. After exercise, simple BCAA proteins. The longer after exercise the more complex the protein gets.
edit: btw that article looks good and straight from the ACSM rule book.
Edited by mattikake on Wednesday 4th July 00:04
Thanks Matt will come back to this later this eve, but found this -
Calculating your maintenance calories
There are two important concepts here: BMR (basic metabolic rate) and NAMR (normal activity metabolic rate). Your basic metabolic rate is the rate at which you burn calories by just living. This is an important number, because it will account for most of your calorie expenditure. There are many calculators online for BMR, and here is one I use:
BMR Calculator.
Use any one you like; they all have pretty much the same formula, and just because you have your BMR, doesn't mean you're done! The real challenge is to calculate your NAMR, i.e. the calories you expend every day doing what you do normally, without exercise. A lot of calculations take your BMR and use a multiplier for the level of activity you have. A good example of this is the Harris Benedict Equation. The problem is, as you can see if you look at this link, it includes your exercise activity.
What I do is this: I take my BMR and use the "sedentary" multiplier of 1.2. In my case, my BMR is 2,059 calories. Using the multiplier of 1.2, I get 2,471 calories. Since I have a sedentary job, this is just about right for me. However, if you have a job that requires a lot of walking, e.g. a school teacher, you would probably bump up this number a bit. My wife walks around 5 miles a day in her job as a teacher, so I would multiply her BMR by 1.2, and then add another 500 calories to that.
Now we want to get a weekly NAMR, so we multiply 2,471 calories x 7, which is 17,297 calories a week.
Next step: calculating your exercise calories. The best way to do this is with a heart rate monitor. Polar makes one that will also measure your calories, based on your heart rate, for around $80 US. It's much more accurate than the machines. If you can't get an HR monitor, then you'll have to use online tables or the machines. Just keep in mind that machines typically overestimate calorie expenditure, except in the case of heavy interval or HIIT cardio, in which case they typically underestimate it.
The key here is to get your average exercise calorie expenditure per week. For me, a typical week looks like this:
Day 1: HIIT Cardio, 600 calories
Day 2: Weight Training, 550 calories
Day 3: Interval Cardio, 1000 calories
Day 4: rest
Day 5: Weight Training, 550 calories
Day 6: Interval Cardio, 1000 calories
Day 7: HIIT Cardio, 600 calories
Total: 4,300 calories
Now I have my weekly calorie expenditure: 21,597 calories per week.
This gives me a daily maintenance expenditure of 3,085 calories. In other words, if I consume about 3,000 calories a day, and keep exercising the way I do, I won't lose weight and I won't gain weight.
Since I want to lose weight, but not lean muscle mass, I want to set the right calorie deficit level. For this, I use body fat percentage.
Calculating your Body Fat Percentage
I think this is one of the most critical components of your plan. Forget about BMI, which is just a convenient index for insurance companies, and one that will penalize you severely for holding onto your muscle. (I'll give you an example of this later). Short of immersing yourself in a tank of water and paying for a scientific test at a lab, there are many less exact ways to do it.
One way that is a complete waste of time is buying a scale that measures body fat. These scales work by sending a light current through your legs. If you are male, and don't have a lot of fat on your legs, you will appear to be totally ripped. Another way is to get a cheap pair of plastic calipers online, and measure your skinfolds. This works well if you are consistent. I've actually found that the handheld devices give me a fairly accurate reading.
The key here is that you'll have to find a method that works for you, and then stick with it.
Once you know your body fat percentage, you can use it to calculate two important things: your "ideal" calorie deficit, and your target weight.
Currently, my body fat percentage is 25.8%. Not good, I know, but that's what it is. From this, I can get my lean body mass and my fat body mass, using my current weight of 237 lbs.
Lean Body Mass = 237 x (1 - 0.258) = 176 lbs.
Fat Body Mass = 237 * 0.258 = 61 lbs.
My formula for a safe deficit: 10 calories per pound of fat body mass. In my case, this would be 61 x 10, or 610 calories. In other words, if I set my average daily deficit at 610 calories, this will give me a healthy rate of weight loss that does not cut into my lean muscle mass, and one that especially doesn't trigger the "starvation" response in my metabolism.
This formula scales well, too. As you get closer to your target weight, your deficit will have to go down a bit; if you are really obese, it allows you to set a much higher deficit level, at least in the beginning.
Calculating your "Ideal" Weight
As I said, forget about BMI. Instead, use your Lean Body Mass (LBM) and your Target Body Fat Percentage (TBFP). My goal is to get to 12% body fat. (If I were a woman, this would be higher, of course) The reciprocal of this is my Target Lean Mass Percentage (TLMP). In my case, this is 88%. My target weight is my current lean body mass (LBM), divided by TLMP:
LBM/TLMP = 176 lbs. / 88% = 200 lbs.
I think you would agree that a 58 year old, 6 foot, male with 12% body fat would be pretty darned good, right? Well take a look at the BMI for this: it's 27.1, right in the middle of the "overweight" category. This is a good example of how worthless BMI is in setting your goal, and how silly it is for anyone who has any muscle mass whatsoever.
Fine-Tuning As You Progress
One of the reasons I go to all the trouble of getting these calculations is that they're good measures to have as you go along. For example, I change my Normal Activity Metabolic Rate into a rate per pound, which in my case is calculated as:
NAMR / Weight = 2,471 / 237 = 10.4 calories per pound. This is important, because as you lose weight, you have to adjust your NAMR. For example, when I weighed 270 lbs., my NAMR was 2,808 calories per day; when I am at my target weight, my NAMR will be 2,080 calories a day, a difference of 728 calories a day!
This, by the way, is one of the reasons people "plateau." They forget to adjust their NAMR after they've lost 20 or 30 pounds, and the difference of 300 calories a day, which comes to 3 pounds a month, causes them to maintain rather than lose weight.
Calculating your maintenance calories
There are two important concepts here: BMR (basic metabolic rate) and NAMR (normal activity metabolic rate). Your basic metabolic rate is the rate at which you burn calories by just living. This is an important number, because it will account for most of your calorie expenditure. There are many calculators online for BMR, and here is one I use:
BMR Calculator.
Use any one you like; they all have pretty much the same formula, and just because you have your BMR, doesn't mean you're done! The real challenge is to calculate your NAMR, i.e. the calories you expend every day doing what you do normally, without exercise. A lot of calculations take your BMR and use a multiplier for the level of activity you have. A good example of this is the Harris Benedict Equation. The problem is, as you can see if you look at this link, it includes your exercise activity.
What I do is this: I take my BMR and use the "sedentary" multiplier of 1.2. In my case, my BMR is 2,059 calories. Using the multiplier of 1.2, I get 2,471 calories. Since I have a sedentary job, this is just about right for me. However, if you have a job that requires a lot of walking, e.g. a school teacher, you would probably bump up this number a bit. My wife walks around 5 miles a day in her job as a teacher, so I would multiply her BMR by 1.2, and then add another 500 calories to that.
Now we want to get a weekly NAMR, so we multiply 2,471 calories x 7, which is 17,297 calories a week.
Next step: calculating your exercise calories. The best way to do this is with a heart rate monitor. Polar makes one that will also measure your calories, based on your heart rate, for around $80 US. It's much more accurate than the machines. If you can't get an HR monitor, then you'll have to use online tables or the machines. Just keep in mind that machines typically overestimate calorie expenditure, except in the case of heavy interval or HIIT cardio, in which case they typically underestimate it.
The key here is to get your average exercise calorie expenditure per week. For me, a typical week looks like this:
Day 1: HIIT Cardio, 600 calories
Day 2: Weight Training, 550 calories
Day 3: Interval Cardio, 1000 calories
Day 4: rest
Day 5: Weight Training, 550 calories
Day 6: Interval Cardio, 1000 calories
Day 7: HIIT Cardio, 600 calories
Total: 4,300 calories
Now I have my weekly calorie expenditure: 21,597 calories per week.
This gives me a daily maintenance expenditure of 3,085 calories. In other words, if I consume about 3,000 calories a day, and keep exercising the way I do, I won't lose weight and I won't gain weight.
Since I want to lose weight, but not lean muscle mass, I want to set the right calorie deficit level. For this, I use body fat percentage.
Calculating your Body Fat Percentage
I think this is one of the most critical components of your plan. Forget about BMI, which is just a convenient index for insurance companies, and one that will penalize you severely for holding onto your muscle. (I'll give you an example of this later). Short of immersing yourself in a tank of water and paying for a scientific test at a lab, there are many less exact ways to do it.
One way that is a complete waste of time is buying a scale that measures body fat. These scales work by sending a light current through your legs. If you are male, and don't have a lot of fat on your legs, you will appear to be totally ripped. Another way is to get a cheap pair of plastic calipers online, and measure your skinfolds. This works well if you are consistent. I've actually found that the handheld devices give me a fairly accurate reading.
The key here is that you'll have to find a method that works for you, and then stick with it.
Once you know your body fat percentage, you can use it to calculate two important things: your "ideal" calorie deficit, and your target weight.
Currently, my body fat percentage is 25.8%. Not good, I know, but that's what it is. From this, I can get my lean body mass and my fat body mass, using my current weight of 237 lbs.
Lean Body Mass = 237 x (1 - 0.258) = 176 lbs.
Fat Body Mass = 237 * 0.258 = 61 lbs.
My formula for a safe deficit: 10 calories per pound of fat body mass. In my case, this would be 61 x 10, or 610 calories. In other words, if I set my average daily deficit at 610 calories, this will give me a healthy rate of weight loss that does not cut into my lean muscle mass, and one that especially doesn't trigger the "starvation" response in my metabolism.
This formula scales well, too. As you get closer to your target weight, your deficit will have to go down a bit; if you are really obese, it allows you to set a much higher deficit level, at least in the beginning.
Calculating your "Ideal" Weight
As I said, forget about BMI. Instead, use your Lean Body Mass (LBM) and your Target Body Fat Percentage (TBFP). My goal is to get to 12% body fat. (If I were a woman, this would be higher, of course) The reciprocal of this is my Target Lean Mass Percentage (TLMP). In my case, this is 88%. My target weight is my current lean body mass (LBM), divided by TLMP:
LBM/TLMP = 176 lbs. / 88% = 200 lbs.
I think you would agree that a 58 year old, 6 foot, male with 12% body fat would be pretty darned good, right? Well take a look at the BMI for this: it's 27.1, right in the middle of the "overweight" category. This is a good example of how worthless BMI is in setting your goal, and how silly it is for anyone who has any muscle mass whatsoever.
Fine-Tuning As You Progress
One of the reasons I go to all the trouble of getting these calculations is that they're good measures to have as you go along. For example, I change my Normal Activity Metabolic Rate into a rate per pound, which in my case is calculated as:
NAMR / Weight = 2,471 / 237 = 10.4 calories per pound. This is important, because as you lose weight, you have to adjust your NAMR. For example, when I weighed 270 lbs., my NAMR was 2,808 calories per day; when I am at my target weight, my NAMR will be 2,080 calories a day, a difference of 728 calories a day!
This, by the way, is one of the reasons people "plateau." They forget to adjust their NAMR after they've lost 20 or 30 pounds, and the difference of 300 calories a day, which comes to 3 pounds a month, causes them to maintain rather than lose weight.
^ haha that's pretty much exactly what I do with clients, especially if they are after weight loss. I'm guessing that guy is a Personal Trainer?
BMR is the first step. Body fat % the other (I use calipers).
What is missing there is a food diary. Most people ignore it but it's probably more important that everything else as most people have no idea how many or how few calories they're eating a day and where the calories are coming from - protein, fat or carbs.
It seems you have no idea what you're eating in terms of nutritional content, as your calorie intake is all over the place.
BMR is the first step. Body fat % the other (I use calipers).
What is missing there is a food diary. Most people ignore it but it's probably more important that everything else as most people have no idea how many or how few calories they're eating a day and where the calories are coming from - protein, fat or carbs.
It seems you have no idea what you're eating in terms of nutritional content, as your calorie intake is all over the place.
superkartracer said:
Thanks Matt will come back to this later this eve, but found this -
Calculating your maintenance calories
There are two important concepts here: BMR (basic metabolic rate) and NAMR (normal activity metabolic rate). Your basic metabolic rate is the rate at which you burn calories by just living. This is an important number, because it will account for most of your calorie expenditure. There are many calculators online for BMR, and here is one I use:
BMR Calculator.
Use any one you like; they all have pretty much the same formula, and just because you have your BMR, doesn't mean you're done! The real challenge is to calculate your NAMR, i.e. the calories you expend every day doing what you do normally, without exercise. A lot of calculations take your BMR and use a multiplier for the level of activity you have. A good example of this is the Harris Benedict Equation. The problem is, as you can see if you look at this link, it includes your exercise activity.
What I do is this: I take my BMR and use the "sedentary" multiplier of 1.2. In my case, my BMR is 2,059 calories. Using the multiplier of 1.2, I get 2,471 calories. Since I have a sedentary job, this is just about right for me. However, if you have a job that requires a lot of walking, e.g. a school teacher, you would probably bump up this number a bit. My wife walks around 5 miles a day in her job as a teacher, so I would multiply her BMR by 1.2, and then add another 500 calories to that.
Would it be more accurate to wear a heart rate monitor for 24 hrs to establish a baseline NAMR?Calculating your maintenance calories
There are two important concepts here: BMR (basic metabolic rate) and NAMR (normal activity metabolic rate). Your basic metabolic rate is the rate at which you burn calories by just living. This is an important number, because it will account for most of your calorie expenditure. There are many calculators online for BMR, and here is one I use:
BMR Calculator.
Use any one you like; they all have pretty much the same formula, and just because you have your BMR, doesn't mean you're done! The real challenge is to calculate your NAMR, i.e. the calories you expend every day doing what you do normally, without exercise. A lot of calculations take your BMR and use a multiplier for the level of activity you have. A good example of this is the Harris Benedict Equation. The problem is, as you can see if you look at this link, it includes your exercise activity.
What I do is this: I take my BMR and use the "sedentary" multiplier of 1.2. In my case, my BMR is 2,059 calories. Using the multiplier of 1.2, I get 2,471 calories. Since I have a sedentary job, this is just about right for me. However, if you have a job that requires a lot of walking, e.g. a school teacher, you would probably bump up this number a bit. My wife walks around 5 miles a day in her job as a teacher, so I would multiply her BMR by 1.2, and then add another 500 calories to that.
Great overview by the way
Looking at your brief diary, I'd say your calorie intake is waayyyyy too low - even during maintenance weeks I'm eating more than your average and peak training weeks I'll be scoffing 5000+ a day (and I'm 69kg).
For me I never get too anal about food. I just eat what I consider good grub. Lean proteins post session (very rarely from supplements), plenty of starchy carbs pre-workout and if I'm on a long session (2hrs+) I'll fuel it with gels (or jelly/similar) at a rate of about 50 grams/hour. Hydration is hugely important and something I do focus upon during the day if I've a session afternoon/evening.
Nutrition's a very personal thing and what works with one may not necessarily work with another, but I think it's a general rule of thumb that you should get a 4:1 split, carb/protein down your neck as soon as poss after a session, preferably within an hour. Glycogen levels are adversely affected if you don't do this within 2 hours or so (by about 50% if my memory serves me correctly). Eating/drinking the right amounts pre/post workout do make a big difference to performance though and it's often said that "a calorie's not just a calorie", which is something I can wholeheartedly testify to.
Personally though, my intake is generally dictated by what phase of training I'm in and my goals during specific blocks. Bottom line is, you'll pretty much know (or certainly find out quickly) what works for you. I do with me.
What bike discipline are you competing in, btw and what are your current performance goals?
For me I never get too anal about food. I just eat what I consider good grub. Lean proteins post session (very rarely from supplements), plenty of starchy carbs pre-workout and if I'm on a long session (2hrs+) I'll fuel it with gels (or jelly/similar) at a rate of about 50 grams/hour. Hydration is hugely important and something I do focus upon during the day if I've a session afternoon/evening.
Nutrition's a very personal thing and what works with one may not necessarily work with another, but I think it's a general rule of thumb that you should get a 4:1 split, carb/protein down your neck as soon as poss after a session, preferably within an hour. Glycogen levels are adversely affected if you don't do this within 2 hours or so (by about 50% if my memory serves me correctly). Eating/drinking the right amounts pre/post workout do make a big difference to performance though and it's often said that "a calorie's not just a calorie", which is something I can wholeheartedly testify to.
Personally though, my intake is generally dictated by what phase of training I'm in and my goals during specific blocks. Bottom line is, you'll pretty much know (or certainly find out quickly) what works for you. I do with me.
What bike discipline are you competing in, btw and what are your current performance goals?
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