Mentally-ill woman stabs another to death
Discussion
No winners in this one.
Nicola Edgington all but decapitated Sally Hodkin, in 2011. This is, in itself, terrible.
But the tragedy is that Edgington actually repeatedly called 999 to explain that she was mentally ill, in a very bad state, and that she felt she posed a real and serious risk to others.
Obviously Edgington needs to be put in a secure place where she can be properly looked after, and where she can no longer pose a risk to the public.
But it grips my s
t when someone who is obviously desperately ill (she had killed her own mother during a psychotic episode, six years earlier) can't raise the police, who appear to have comprehensively cocked it up.
Hodkin's husband's world has been destroyed, Edgington has another death on her hands, and it could all have been avoided.
Nicola Edgington all but decapitated Sally Hodkin, in 2011. This is, in itself, terrible.
But the tragedy is that Edgington actually repeatedly called 999 to explain that she was mentally ill, in a very bad state, and that she felt she posed a real and serious risk to others.
Obviously Edgington needs to be put in a secure place where she can be properly looked after, and where she can no longer pose a risk to the public.
But it grips my s
t when someone who is obviously desperately ill (she had killed her own mother during a psychotic episode, six years earlier) can't raise the police, who appear to have comprehensively cocked it up.Hodkin's husband's world has been destroyed, Edgington has another death on her hands, and it could all have been avoided.
It's the system that's broken, and although the Police could have helped prevent the death, why are the police being used as specially trained healthcare workers?
Successive governments have removed the treatment and specialist accommodation for these people in order to fund pet projects which are not needed.
Successive governments have removed the treatment and specialist accommodation for these people in order to fund pet projects which are not needed.
Puggit said:
It's the system that's broken, and although the Police could have helped prevent the death, why are the police being used as specially trained healthcare workers?
In this case, I don't think they were. They were being asked to deal with someone who was telling them, with some conviction, that they were going to do something terrible. That's not "healthcare", it's "policing".Puggit said:
Successive governments have removed the treatment and specialist accommodation for these people
Yep. The concept of "care in the community" had been around since the 50s, but it was under Saint Margaret that it really gained traction.Puggit said:
in order to fund pet projects which are not needed.
Maybe, maybe not. She was taken to a secure mental health unit. She was released by THEM and then went on to kill. As usual however, it's always the Police's fault.
90% of our time is spent dealing with bloody mental health becuase the 'professionals' wash their hands of the problem and don't want to know. I'm sick of having to put mentally ill people in cells because our so called health care experts can't be arsed.
We've talked a woman down off a bridge. Taken her to a secure mental health ward and a few hours later she's back on the bridge. The 'experts' releasing her after declaring her perfectly fine as she'd been able to form a 'reasoned opinion to kill herself'.
Just what a Police Officer with as much mental health training as a car salesman is supposed to do with a paranoid Schizophrenic is beyond me. But I do know we're the ones that are left dealing with them every day and every night.
90% of our time is spent dealing with bloody mental health becuase the 'professionals' wash their hands of the problem and don't want to know. I'm sick of having to put mentally ill people in cells because our so called health care experts can't be arsed.
We've talked a woman down off a bridge. Taken her to a secure mental health ward and a few hours later she's back on the bridge. The 'experts' releasing her after declaring her perfectly fine as she'd been able to form a 'reasoned opinion to kill herself'.
Just what a Police Officer with as much mental health training as a car salesman is supposed to do with a paranoid Schizophrenic is beyond me. But I do know we're the ones that are left dealing with them every day and every night.
Edited by Elroy Blue on Monday 4th March 13:12
Elroy Blue said:
Following her phone call, she was taken to a secure mental health unit. She was released by THEM and then went on to kill. As usual however, it's always the Police's fault.
90% of our time is spent dealing with bloody mental health becuase the 'professionals' wash their hands of the problem and don't want to know. I'm sick of having to put mentally ill people in cells because our so called health care experts can't be arsed.
We've talked a woman down off a bridge. Taken her to a secure mental health ward and a few hours later she's back on the bridge. The 'experts' releasing her after declaring her perfectlt fine as she'd been able to form a 'reasoned opinion to kill herself'.
Just what a Police Officer with as much mental health training as a car salesman is supposed to do with a paranoid Schizophrenic is beyond me. But I do know we're the ones that are left dealing with them every day and every night.
Phone calls. She made at least 4.90% of our time is spent dealing with bloody mental health becuase the 'professionals' wash their hands of the problem and don't want to know. I'm sick of having to put mentally ill people in cells because our so called health care experts can't be arsed.
We've talked a woman down off a bridge. Taken her to a secure mental health ward and a few hours later she's back on the bridge. The 'experts' releasing her after declaring her perfectlt fine as she'd been able to form a 'reasoned opinion to kill herself'.
Just what a Police Officer with as much mental health training as a car salesman is supposed to do with a paranoid Schizophrenic is beyond me. But I do know we're the ones that are left dealing with them every day and every night.
IPCC said:
The Independent Police Complaints Commission said:
The first bit is not the police's fault, and lies at the door of the hospital that released her. They're not psychic.- Police in Greenwich were not notified that Edgington was living in the area following her release from an indefinite hospital order in 2009 after she killed her mother
- Officers and police staff did not carry out a Police National Computer (PNC) check during their interactions with her on the day of the murder which would have alerted them to her conviction for manslaughter
- Officers missed an opportunity to use their powers under section 136 of the Mental Health Act when Edgington tried to leave the A&E department shortly after she arrived with police
- Edgington's second 999 call from the A&E department was downgraded because she was considered to be in a place of safety and an officer was not asked to return, despite Edgington saying she could be very dangerous
As for the rest, if not the police, with their training for dealing with violent individuals, then who? Psychiatric nurses? They are trained to manage dangerous people in the setting of a hospital, not out and about with other folk on hand to help or hinder.
If you've got a person with a knife who's ringing you up and telling you that they're going to use it, surely that's a police matter? Why wouldn't it be?
She was released by 'experts'. They deemed her fit.
Sec 136 can only be used to enable examination by an approved mental health professional and of making any necessary arrangements for her treatment or care. It is not there to willy nilly arrest people. She was at the bloody hospital.
Mental health 'experts' are only expert in saying 'it's nothing to do with us gov' and leaving it to Police. I hope this leads to a very in depth enquiry, in which the shambles that is mental health provision in this country and the complete abscence of responsibility showed by the NHS is exposed.
Sec 136 can only be used to enable examination by an approved mental health professional and of making any necessary arrangements for her treatment or care. It is not there to willy nilly arrest people. She was at the bloody hospital.
Mental health 'experts' are only expert in saying 'it's nothing to do with us gov' and leaving it to Police. I hope this leads to a very in depth enquiry, in which the shambles that is mental health provision in this country and the complete abscence of responsibility showed by the NHS is exposed.
Elroy Blue said:
She was released by 'experts'. They deemed her fit.
Sec 136 can only be used to enable examination by an approved mental health professional and of making any necessary arrangements for her treatment or care. It is not there to willy nilly arrest people. She was at the bloody hospital.
^ This.Sec 136 can only be used to enable examination by an approved mental health professional and of making any necessary arrangements for her treatment or care. It is not there to willy nilly arrest people. She was at the bloody hospital.
If she's already in the hospital then the police have no power to take her anywhere else. EB is correct - the police are routinely used to fill in the gaps by mental health services without either training or legal powers. Between 4pm on Friday and 8am on a Monday morning the police provide more emergency mental health care than the NHS.
If someone rings the police saying they want to harm themselves or others, then the police powers are limited to taking that person to a place of safety i.e. a hospital or worst case scenario a police cell. Once taken to hospital the police have no further powers to deal with the mentally ill person.
Personally I hope this finally leads to some lines being drawn in the sand as regards the limits of the police to care for the mentally ill in lieu of the NHS. The current situation is an utter disgrace. (See also Social Services).
ETA: The IPCC suggesting that a PNC check would have helped medical staff to better treat and assess her is a red herring. The NHS staff would have been able to view her medical history as soon as they'd booked her in to A&E.
Edited by Sparta VAG on Monday 4th March 14:33
greygoose said:
The police took her to hospital twice from the sound of things but she wasn't admitted for whatever reason, a tragic case all round really but should she have been back on the streets so soon after her previous murder of her mother?
She admitted herself to a hospital and called the police several times from there according to radio 4 . Despite telling them she was going to hurt somebody and said that she had murdred somebody before when she felt like she did they did nothing. They didn't run background check which would have shown she had murdered before. They read out the transcripts on radio 4 today. Simply shocking.
Stabbed her mum to death and out three years later. To murder and make again despite telling people she would
There was no mention of police taking her to a secure unit just that she was in an a & e
Edited by Pesty on Monday 4th March 18:44
XCP said:
If she had killed her own mother some 6 years earlier, what the merry fk was she doing out on the street in the first place?
because an "expert" had decided she was safe to be released.k was she doing out on the street in the first place?pity these "experts" dont have any comeback on the decisions they make unlike so many of us.
if i use my professional experience to make a decision and its wrong and someone gets hurt or killed because of it i would end up in the dock so why not them?
XCP said:
If she had killed her own mother some 6 years earlier, what the merry fk was she doing out on the street in the first place?
If the IPCC have there say that was probably the fault of the police as well. Why oh why are the medical professionals who said she was ok not being disciplined and struck off for incompetence. k was she doing out on the street in the first place?dudleybloke said:
XCP said:
If she had killed her own mother some 6 years earlier, what the merry fk was she doing out on the street in the first place?
because an "expert" had decided she was safe to be released.k was she doing out on the street in the first place?pity these "experts" dont have any comeback on the decisions they make unlike so many of us.
if i use my professional experience to make a decision and its wrong and someone gets hurt or killed because of it i would end up in the dock so why not them?
mph1977 said:
dudleybloke said:
XCP said:
If she had killed her own mother some 6 years earlier, what the merry fk was she doing out on the street in the first place?
because an "expert" had decided she was safe to be released.k was she doing out on the street in the first place?pity these "experts" dont have any comeback on the decisions they make unlike so many of us.
if i use my professional experience to make a decision and its wrong and someone gets hurt or killed because of it i would end up in the dock so why not them?
they should also face the wrath of the health and safety executive too.
Three people a fortnight I was wrong. That's a lot of people being investigated.
The main case talked about in this was a young girl murdered local to me. Her killer also begged to be locked up and said she was dangerous
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/3-people-are-...
The main case talked about in this was a young girl murdered local to me. Her killer also begged to be locked up and said she was dangerous
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/3-people-are-...
Pesty said:
She admitted herself to a hospital and called the police several times from there according to radio 4 . Despite telling them she was going to hurt somebody and said that she had murdred somebody before when she felt like she did they did nothing. They didn't run background check which would have shown she had murdered before.
They read out the transcripts on radio 4 today. Simply shocking.
Stabbed her mum to death and out three years later. To murder and make again despite telling people she would
There was no mention of police taking her to a secure unit just that she was in an a & e
If she was in a hospital ( 'a place of safety'), the police had no power under S136 to remove her. The police cannot drag mentally ill people around from one place of safety to another ( a cell, perhaps). They read out the transcripts on radio 4 today. Simply shocking.
Stabbed her mum to death and out three years later. To murder and make again despite telling people she would
There was no mention of police taking her to a secure unit just that she was in an a & e
Edited by Pesty on Monday 4th March 18:44
XCP said:
If she was in a hospital ( 'a place of safety'), the police had no power under S136 to remove her. The police cannot drag mentally ill people around from one place of safety to another ( a cell, perhaps).
Officers missed an opportunity to use their powers under section 136 of the Mental Health Act when Edgington tried to leave the A&E department shortly after she arrived with policeIm sure the police did what they could to a certain extent.
The fault goes back years to care in the community. this will happen again and again.
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