Possible starter motor sticky or imobiliser

[TimJM]

I have been using my 4.5 a fair bit over the last week or so and it has been performing great, in all sorts of traffic and on all different length journeys it hasn't missed a beat. I was expecting to have a few issues once this car was in daily use from being off the road for a couple of years and one issue (which is a common one) has started to show up. It is the common black button not starting first time issue.

I have had this issue twice now, once yesterday and once on Saturday (both on first start of the day) where I press the black button (fuel pumped primed, MIL on, start beep/tone present) and nothing. Then usually if I press the button a few times on one of the attempts it will start as normal. I know this is a common issue and I know of the most likely causes and solutions but before I start down the route of replacement immobilizers I wanted to try out the starter relay fix.

To better describe the issue and to ask you advice on if the starter relay fix will work here are the exact symptoms:

• Press the black button and nothing.
• Press the black button a number of times and eventually one press will start the car.
• The car has a brand new battery.
• The car has a 125amp replaced big fuse and no other electrical issues.
• When you press the starter button (and the car doesn't start) I can hear a very quiet click from behind me in the immobilizer location.
• This only happens (so far) the first start in the morning. The rest of the day the car will start first press every time. For example, yesterday I had the issue first start of the day and the car didn't start util about the 7th/8th start button press. I was using the car the rest of the day for short/long journeys and must have started the car at least 7-8 more times and absolutely no issue at all. In fact once the car has been on a run when you restart it the engine doesn't even seem to turn over (well no noticeable time you can detect). You press the black button and then engine fires into life immediately.

So, my plan is to connect up a relay to the starter to give it more juice as I know that the starter solenoid wire can suffer from voltage drop or if the starter is a bit sticky maybe the extra juice will kick it into life.

I plan on doing the following (I doubt this is giving away any security information as it does not affect the immobilizer wiring at all).

Connect a 30a SPDT relay (like the ones used for the fuel pump on my Griff) up into the starter wiring.

1. Relay pin 30 to the big fuse +.
2. Relay pin 87 to the starter solenoid +.
3. Relay pin 85 to ground (-).
4. Relay pin 86 from the current solenoid + feed/trigger wire.

My questions are as follows

1. Are the pins correctly wired as in my planned relay install above?
2. Is 12g wire thick enough for this or do I need to go thicker?
3. Where is the best place near the coil pack to pick the ground up from for relay pin 85?
4. Do I need an inline fuse (say 20a) from the big fuse + to the relay pin 30?

If this doesn't work then I am going to bypass the starter circuit on the immobilizer to see if that is the fault. I am 90% sure I know which wires to cut and splice on the immobilizer but I won't be posting that info up on here. If anyone can confirm which wires to cut and splice or at least confirm or rule out my understanding of this bypass then please PM me.

Edited by TimJM on Tuesday 6th May 12:51

[ukkid35]

Rather than a separate in line fuse, you could just use a fused relay like this.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=128...

Relay itself will probably draw no more than 100mA, for only a few seconds at a time, you'd be unlikely to use too small a gauge wire.

[Jhonno]

I have done the same.. After I fitted a new immobiliser.. Took my 12v straight from the battery and earthed on a fuel rail bolt iirc.

[TimJM]

ukkid35 said:

Rather than a separate in line fuse, you could just use a fused relay like this.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=128...

Relay itself will probably draw no more than 100mA, for only a few seconds at a time, you'd be unlikely to use too small a gauge wire.

Thanks - Looking at your pic on the thread you linked to I think I have the relay pin connections correct. It looks like your 30 is off the big fuse, the 87 is running into a connector (presumably for the starter solenoid), the 85 is to that bolt near the big fuse holder and the 86 is the current solenoid trigger wire.

I was going to go with an inline fuse so I could have a waterproof holder. I know that when washing the car and in very heavy rain water runs down the back of the engine and all over the big fuse (great design that). Has your open fuse been OK there unprotected? I will be using this car in any weather so it must be able to cope with heavy rain.

[TimJM]

Jhonno said:

I have done the same.. After I fitted a new immobiliser.. Took my 12v straight from the battery and earthed on a fuel rail bolt iirc.

I think it is most likely the wire degrading from the immobilizer. Having just had a little listen again the click I hear is the immobilizer internal relay when I push the start button so that is still working (we - still clicking) and I only ever have this problem from cold not hot so that would (in my mind) make a starter motor problem less likely as they tend to be OK cold and not hot which is the opposite from my symptoms. When the started does fire it spins the engine extremely fast which is probably when the engine always starts so quickly.

I think the relay is the way to go as a first step (as it sounds like a good thing anyway) and if that fails then the I will bypass the immobilizer starter circuit to test if that is where the fault lies.

[Jhonno]

• I also used 3mm dia wired..

Yeah I have come to the conclusion it must be a wired/connection degradation thing as well. Mine used to do it hot and cold, but it had a new starter! Twice.. Like yours when it did spin it went over very nicely. Now it starts perfectly every time.

[jackwibble]

Ok just to throw a small spanner in the thinking I had the same problems last year and was thinking immobiliser issues but it turned out to be a faulty starter solenoid so it's well worth checking that first as it's relatively easy to test by running a wire from the battery positive to the black signal wire on the solenoid.
If the solenoid is ok every time you touch the cable to the battery it should engage the starter which will then turn the engine, if it doesn't then the solenoid could be shot I sorted a replacement for about £40.

http://www.amp-starters.co.uk/product.asp?strPageH...

[TimJM]

jackwibble said:

Ok just to throw a small spanner in the thinking I had the same problems last year and was thinking immobiliser issues but it turned out to be a faulty starter solenoid so it's well worth checking that first as it's relatively easy to test by running a wire from the battery positive to the black signal wire on the solenoid.
If the solenoid is ok every time you touch the cable to the battery it should engage the starter which will then turn the engine, if it doesn't then the solenoid could be shot I sorted a replacement for about £40.

http://www.amp-starters.co.uk/product.asp?strPageH...

Yes, that could be the issue too but either way I like the idea of the relay delivering a clean 12v from rather than the current setup. Even if it turns out to be the starter solenoid on the way out I think I would still put in a relay anyway. This car is a daily so reliability is paramount and the relay wiring just seems cleaner in my mind.

[TimJM]

Problem solved. The problem - the starter solenoid relay (#2) is sticky and on the way out. How simple. It turned out to be much simpler than any of my other ideas - it's amazing how with these cars we conjurer up all sort of convoluted reasons why something doesn't work and forget the basics.

If you have a similar problem it might be worthwhile performing the following simple test as I did which will only take you less than 5 minutes.

• I removed the small top scuttle panel to gain access to the battery.
• I tested the battery with my multimeter and had a reading of 12.46v.
• Next I tried to start the car (I haven't driven today so it had been sitting since yesterday morning about 30 hours) and as expected nothing. The starter didn't fire.
• I then reached down the back of the engine and managed to pull out the starter motor signal wire that leads to the started solenoid.
• Next, push the multimeter negative probe into the neg battery terminal clamp and the positive probe into the starter solenoid signal wire spade connector from the immobilizer. You can then prop the multimeter up against your window wiper with the probes tightly in place if you are doing this by yourself as I was.
• Get in the car and go through the normal starting procedure. I pressed the black button expecting some voltage drop - perhaps 11.4v but nothing. 0.0v.

I could still hear a faint click (with the doors and windows closed) on each black button press from behind me which must be a relay inside the immobiliser.

• Continue to press the black starter button a number of times as if you would when attempting to start your car with this issue and eventually (on the 6th attempt for me) a much louder second click and then 12.2v registering on my multimeter.

The start button press now on every press resulted in a very faint click form behind me then a much louder second click nearly instantly from the boot. Relay #2 on the fuse board.

I plugged the starter signal wire back onto the solenoid and pressed the black button and as expected it started straight away.

This also neatly explains for me why I get this only once in the morning then the cars is perfect for the rest of the day on all subsequent restarts. It must be the relay on the way out and being sticky and needing persuasion for the first switch of the day and then it is freed off for the rest of the day.

The wiring must trigger a small relay in the immobiliser which then triggers the bigger relay in the boot. If your car normally starts obviously you won't be able to hear either of these relay clicks from the noise of the engine turning over.

I say problem solved a sticky relay does for now explain perfectly the behaviour I have been experiencing and I am 99% confident that with a new relay my starter issue will be solved.

[FarmyardPants]

TimJM said:

I am 99% confident that with a new relay my starter issue will be solved.

You were doing so well until this statement.
Next up, recovery truck .


useful post though!

[TimJM]

FarmyardPants said:

You were doing so well until this statement.
Next up, recovery truck .


useful post though!

Shhhh - the car might hear you...it's looking at me now through the window...

[FarmyardPants]

Relay...I'll show him a relay....the AA variety!

[Jhonno]

Think I may replace my boot relay as well then. Just as a precaution!

[ukkid35]

TimJM said:

This only happens (so far) the first start in the morning. The rest of the day the car will start first press every time.

I missed that! I should have read your original post more carefully before wading in...

For anyone else reading this, the helper relay is usually a good solution if the starter motor simply clicks when hot.

[TimJM]

ukkid35 said:

I missed that! I should have read your original post more carefully before wading in...

For anyone else reading this, the helper relay is usually a good solution if the starter motor simply clicks when hot.

No problem - all comments and suggestions are welcome. In fact your post was helpful as the picture it linked to clearly showed the starter motor signal wire connection block that I had to find deep in the darkest reaches behind my engine to test my starter circuit.

And yes, as you suggested the helper relay obviously wouldn't have helped me in this case as the starter solenoid signal wire which would drive the relay was 0 volts due to the sticky #2 relay on the fuse board.

Hopefully a new relay will be delivered tomorrow and the first start of the day will be one button press not half a dozen or more.

[Jhonno]

Just pure laziness on my part Tim.. But.. What relay have you purchased and from where?

[TimJM]

Jhonno said:

Just pure laziness on my part Tim.. But.. What relay have you purchased and from where?

It is a SIEMENS Relay V23134-B52-X127 YWB10012.

I was going to get one from here but (ignore the griff reference it is the same relay) but they have £5 shipping so it will be over £10 from them:
http://www.thetvrshop.com/TVR/Parts_details/TVR%20...

So for now I just searched ebay for YWB10012 and picked up a used but tested/guaranteed one from a land rover parts shop for £2.80 with free delivery.

I am also going to see if my local car parts shop can source me a brand new one (no p&p so should be under a fiver) which I will then put in my boot as a spare.

[Jhonno]

Once again Tim.. You are a star. Cheers!

[TimJM]

In preparation for my auto parts shop visit I have also unearthed this equivalent part numbers information which may be useful when sourcing a replacement:

Vehicle manufacturer: Rover
Vehicle manufacturer number: YWB 10012
Siemens number (OEM relays): V23134-B52-X127
Siemens number (Bosch relays): V23134-B52-X446
Tyco number (Bosch relays): 1-1414352-0
Bosch number: 0 986 332 071

[N7GTX]

The 4.5 may be different to the early 4.2 as to the starter relay position. After spending ages looking for the starter relay - which was not in the boot on the fuse board - I eventually found it behind the kick-panel (carpeting) in the passenger's side footwell.
However, a second relay had been fitted under the bonnet next to the wiper motor and when mine did not start found both relays were faulty.
May help someone trying to find the relay on an early 4.2.