997 GT2 RS - Suspension

[V8KSN]

Morning all

Just read a very good article in the evo app (a test between the SLS AMG and the 997 GT2 RS)

One thing stood out in that article was the journo (Jethro) made mention of the quality damping in the GT2 RS and how it 'soaked up' bumps, ridges and compressions in the road.

My question is - Is the suspension on the GT2 RS passive or is it PASM?

The reason I ask is because the suspension on my car (997.1 GT3) is PASM and I am looking to upgrade it so its more compliant on the road and......softer..... if that makes sense.

Current favourite is the Exe-Tc dampers but they are really quite expensive, would this be a cheaper (but still great quality) alternative? Or did the suspension on the SLS shine a more positive light on the GT2 do you think?

[Slippydiff]

The '7 GT2 RS still has PASM.

ExeTC's. A quick word. Harris ran them on his Gen 997 GT3, he reported that the uprated/rosejointed links that were fitted to that car at the same time, were noisy/rattly.
I've since been in another Porsche fitted with the ExeTC dampers, that too rattled. I'd therefore suggest that far from the suspension links being the items that rattled on the Harris car, it was actually the dampers themselves. When all is said and done, they're a competition damper and NVH/refinement wasn't at the top of their list of priorities when they engineered them.

The quality of the damping is excellent, but my guess is Sebastian Loeb wouldn't have been too bothered about a few clunks and rattles as he made his way along the stages of the WRC at 120mph. If you think that rattly dampers on your road car will drive you to distraction, you may be better off looking elsewhere.

If you'd like to experience the ExeTC damper effect (they're as good as the Ohlins 3 way adjustables that were fitted on my Mk1 996 GT3), PM me and I can put you in touch with owner of the ExeTC equipped car.

HTH.

[isaldiri]

Slippydiff said:

The '7 GT2 RS still has PASM.

If you'd like to experience the ExeTC damper effect (they're as good as the Ohlins 3 way adjustables that were fitted on my Mk1 996 GT3),

Are the Ohlins really as good as they are said to be even for more road biased use rather than mainly track use and would you say they are a worthwhile upgrade (with someone who does know what he's doing of course!) on the PASM cars?

[mrdemon]

V8KSN said:

Morning all


The reason I ask is because the suspension on my car (997.1 GT3) is PASM and I am looking to upgrade it so its more compliant on the road and......softer..... if that makes sense.

not saying a word :-p

getting annoyed with it then ?

what setting is your front ARB ? I found the front ARB on stiff caused a lot of the hassle on uk B roads.
Ofcourse PASM on, cannot cope one bit either.

whats the deal with "Ohlins Road & Track suspension" as it looks ok value @ £2.4k other wise it can get out of control money wise
ExeTC is double that wasn't it ?

"It’s a kit designed for track day use and club racing but with the DFV technology it also offers superb handling and comfort on the way to and from the tracks.

The Road & Track kit with DFV technology is a kit now developed with Porsche specific settings. The DFV technology acts like a high and low speed blow off valve and with adjustable compression and rebound the days of compromise are over.
This kit works surprisingly well on the road as well as at high speed on racing tracks, whether it is trackdays or racing. The settings have been developed using both shake rigs and testing by racing drivers to make sure the Öhlins DNA is present.
"

[V8KSN]

Slippydiff said:

The '7 GT2 RS still has PASM.

ExeTC's. A quick word. Harris ran them on his Gen 997 GT3, he reported that the uprated/rosejointed links that were fitted to that car at the same time, were noisy/rattly.
I've since been in another Porsche fitted with the ExeTC dampers, that too rattled. I'd therefore suggest that far from the suspension links being the items that rattled on the Harris car, it was actually the dampers themselves. When all is said and done, they're a competition damper and NVH/refinement wasn't at the top of their list of priorities when they engineered them.

The quality of the damping is excellent, but my guess is Sebastian Loeb wouldn't have been too bothered about a few clunks and rattles as he made his way along the stages of the WRC at 120mph. If you think that rattly dampers on your road car will drive you to distraction, you may be better off looking elsewhere.

If you'd like to experience the ExeTC damper effect (they're as good as the Ohlins 3 way adjustables that were fitted on my Mk1 996 GT3), PM me and I can put you in touch with owner of the ExeTC equipped car.

HTH.

The noise is a worry as you are not the only person I have heard mention this but I was led to believe that the additional NVH was due to the rose joints and if you opt for the normal bushes instead then its reduced somewhat but, if the other car you have been in rattled the same then its a worry.

I might have to look into Ohlins 3 ways some more.

I'll send you a PM later

[V8KSN]

mrdemon said:

not saying a word :-p

getting annoyed with it then ?

what setting is your front ARB ? I found the front ARB on stiff caused a lot of the hassle on uk B roads.
Ofcourse PASM on, cannot cope one bit either.

whats the deal with "Ohlins Road & Track suspension" as it looks ok value @ £2.4k other wise it can get out of control money wise
ExeTC is double that wasn't it ?

"It’s a kit designed for track day use and club racing but with the DFV technology it also offers superb handling and comfort on the way to and from the tracks.

The Road & Track kit with DFV technology is a kit now developed with Porsche specific settings. The DFV technology acts like a high and low speed blow off valve and with adjustable compression and rebound the days of compromise are over.
This kit works surprisingly well on the road as well as at high speed on racing tracks, whether it is trackdays or racing. The settings have been developed using both shake rigs and testing by racing drivers to make sure the Öhlins DNA is present.
"

I'm just looking for some increased compliance over the rough stuff but I don't want to get too far away from the keyed in feeling I get with the current set up either. I don't want any more NVH as my daughter will then refuse to travel in it....which opens up a whole other can of worms regarding a second car for 'other' duties etc.

I am nowhere near enough skilled to find the limit of the standard PASM set up (on the road) but I do like to....'tinker' with my cars... beginning to think I am gilding the lily somewhat

As for getting annoyed with it, no way! Love this car more than anything

It's not like I am going to sell it and buy a Cayman R as that would just be stupid!

[mrdemon]

now they are £75k you could sell it and buy a GT4 ;-)

[Cunno]

Out of all the GT3s the 997 has the most compliant road suspension with its PASM suspension and progressive springs. Changing out to passive dampers can only be a backwards step for road use as most after market kits are designed for more focus use / track I.e stiffer less compliant. I have Motons on my 997 and although I have 14 settings on both bump and rebound I still don't believe that I'm capable of making it more road compliant than the original PASM system.

Before spending lots of money on passive dampers I'd look at this:

http://www.tpcracing.net/dsc.html

This device alters the pre- setting within the PASM unit to give you 3 levels of control. Look on Rennlist for reviews new to the market mite be the answer.

Jon

[Slippydiff]

Cunno said:

Out of all the GT3s the 997 has the most compliant road suspension with its PASM suspension and progressive springs. Changing out to passive dampers can only be a backwards step for road use as most after market kits are designed for more focus use / track I.e stiffer less compliant. I have Motons on my 997 and although I have 14 settings on both bump and rebound I still don't believe that I'm capable of making it more road compliant than the original PASM system.

Before spending lots of money on passive dampers I'd look at this:

http://www.tpcracing.net/dsc.html

This device alters the pre- setting within the PASM unit to give you 3 levels of control. Look on Rennlist for reviews new to the market mite be the answer.

Jon

isaldiri said:

Are the Ohlins really as good as they are said to be even for more road biased use rather than mainly track use and would you say they are a worthwhile upgrade (with someone who does know what he's doing of course!) on the PASM cars?

Yes they are that good, BUT, you'll need to have a set custom built with some more road biased spring rates, and the dampers valved to suit. Most of the off the shelf kits run crazily high spring rates as the expectation is the cars thus equipped will be used on track. As you can see from the post above ........

Fitting passives to a road car probably is gilding the lily on a 997. I have to say both the Gen 1 997 GT3's I've run felt pretty stable at faintly ridiculous speeds on the road.
But a bit like decent brakes, you can't have dampers that are too good imo, the real key is finding someone to build what you want and then provide the necessary support to set them up and adjust them to suit both the car and your driving style.

A standard 996 GT3 with good (ie new) springs and a set of recently refreshed/new OE dampers is a pretty good road set up. But the 3 way Ohlins on my Mk1, along with PS Cups a and geo set up only slightly more aggressive than standard, takes the car to another level altogether, especially on the high speed stuff.
In effect it's 997 GT3 stable but with all the tactility and compactness of the earlier car. Win win.

[isaldiri]

Slippydiff said:

Yes they are that good, BUT, you'll need to have a set custom built with some more road biased spring rates, and the dampers valved to suit. Most of the off the shelf kits run crazily high spring rates as the expectation is the cars thus equipped will be used on track. As you can see from the post above ........

Fitting passives to a road car probably is gilding the lily on a 997. I have to say both the Gen 1 997 GT3's I've run felt pretty stable at faintly ridiculous speeds on the road.
But a bit like decent brakes, you can't have dampers that are too good imo, the real key is finding someone to build what you want and then provide the necessary support to set them up and adjust them to suit both the car and your driving style.

A standard 996 GT3 with good (ie new) springs and a set of recently refreshed/new OE dampers is a pretty good road set up. But the 3 way Ohlins on my Mk1, along with PS Cups a and geo set up only slightly more aggressive than standard, takes the car to another level altogether, especially on the high speed stuff.
In effect it's 997 GT3 stable but with all the tactility and compactness of the earlier car. Win win.

Thanks for that. Yeah I had a brief chat with Parr/Fearnsport who did mention exactly that - having a set built to spec with springs biased for however much track use I might have had in mind. Almost certainly overkill I admit though but something to keep in mind next year anyway!

[Cunno]

Attached is a link to the Rennlist thread for the DSC, they seem impressed. If I still had PASM I'd be looking at this

http://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-gt3-forum/83765...

[ttdan]

Cunno said:

Attached is a link to the Rennlist thread for the DSC, they seem impressed. If I still had PASM I'd be looking at this

http://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-gt3-forum/83765...

For road use absolutely agree, seems a very well regarded mod. jury's out on the track benefits.

PASM is on all the time btw, ie there is no OFF switch, its two settings each with its own variable range, one is stiffer at the mid point than the other.

[slodge]

Without wishing to sound like some sort of macho w@nker, my new 997.1 GT3 on passives is like a limousine compared to my old 6.2 GT3 with Black Series bushes and Ohlins! I can't believe how well it rides the rough road stuff. If you were looking to track then I would understand the switch to passives, but for pure road use I'd stick with the PASM.

Further to Cunnos point, I've done some research on the DSC box from TPC Racing in the States and had some chats via email with Tom Chan. Rennlisters are waxing lyrical over it. Sounds like quite a cool bit of kit (think mega fancy PASM control box with lots of modes) and may be just what you are after, see some excerpts below. Happy to PM you the full email chain if you wish. I'd defo go direct to them if you are keen and remember if a Gen 1 car you'll also need to fit a 3 way accelerometer ($250 for the parts). Gen 2 has it as standard. Main box is plug and play I believe.

Good luck dude and let us know what you opt for. I am trying to resist tinkering but feel the passive gods calling to me...

"DSC will make the shocks fully active to the driver's input and car's 3-axis g-loads. The active feature cannot be duplicated by conventional racing shocks, such as increasing front compression during braking or increase compression of only the outside shocks when turning, all of changing damping values are relative to the dynamic inputs including vehicle speed. The mapping in the DSC has been well-sorted using professional race car drivers and race car engineers.

In reality what the DSC offers is a much wider useable range from using stock PASM shocks, at a reasonable cost, and will rival the performance of a set of $5-6K Club level colivers. Obliviously a set of $10K+ Pro level coilovers will be superior for racing."

Cheers

Slodge

Edited by slodge on Tuesday 2nd December 22:26

Edited by slodge on Tuesday 2nd December 22:27

[Slippydiff]

slodge said:

Without wishing to sound like some sort of macho w@nker, my new 997.1 GT3 on passives is like a limousine compared to my old 6.2 GT3 with Black Series bushes and Ohlins! I can't believe how well it rides the rough road stuff. If you were looking to track then I would understand the switch to passives, but for pure road use I'd stick with the PASM.

Morning Simon, your comments back up what I've said earlier in this thread. I looked at the Ohlins R&T range for my 1M Coupe, I discussed the spring rates with one of their US agents, and having seen the spring rates they suggested, I looked elsewhere........ My guess is the spring rates used on 996 GT3 kits are equally high, hence why you found the ride somewhat compromised.

Furthermore, the R&T Ohlins really aren't what I'd term "the real deal". Whilst they're designed by Ohlins in Sweden, they're manufactured in Japan. And whilst they're not cheap, neither are they TTX expensive (circa £6-7k) as such the R&T dampers are built down to a price. The TTX are not. As with most things in life, you get what you pay for ! With dampers this is most definitely the case.

Had you had a set of custom sprung and valved Ohlins TTX's fitted on the 996 GT3, you'd be aware of the limitations of the stock PASM dampers on the 997 (very good the though the PASM units are on the road)


But what's really key, is finding an individual who understands what it is you want from your car and who'll build the damper/spring combination you're looking for (after all, you can have the best dampers available on the market, but if the original spring rates and valving are incorrect, you'll never get the ride/handling balance right) AND help you to adjust it to your driving style/usage once it's on the car.

[mrdemon]

slodge said:

Without wishing to sound like some sort of macho w@nker, my new 997.1 GT3 on passives is like a limousine

like others have said, what passives do you have on your 997.1 GT3

[slodge]

Slippydiff said:

slodge said:

Without wishing to sound like some sort of macho w@nker, my new 997.1 GT3 on passives is like a limousine compared to my old 6.2 GT3 with Black Series bushes and Ohlins! I can't believe how well it rides the rough road stuff. If you were looking to track then I would understand the switch to passives, but for pure road use I'd stick with the PASM.

Morning Simon, your comments back up what I've said earlier in this thread. I looked at the Ohlins R&T range for my 1M Coupe, I discussed the spring rates with one of their US agents, and having seen the spring rates they suggested, I looked elsewhere........ My guess is the spring rates used on 996 GT3 kits are equally high, hence why you found the ride somewhat compromised.

Furthermore, the R&T Ohlins really aren't what I'd term "the real deal". Whilst they're designed by Ohlins in Sweden, they're manufactured in Japan. And whilst they're not cheap, neither are they TTX expensive (circa £6-7k) as such the R&T dampers are built down to a price. The TTX are not. As with most things in life, you get what you pay for ! With dampers this is most definitely the case.

Had you had a set of custom sprung and valved Ohlins TTX's fitted on the 996 GT3, you'd be aware of the limitations of the stock PASM dampers on the 997 (very good the though the PASM units are on the road)

But what's really key, is finding an individual who understands what it is you want from your car and who'll build the damper/spring combination you're looking for (after all, you can have the best dampers available on the market, but if the original spring rates and valving are incorrect, you'll never get the ride/handling balance right) AND help you to adjust it to your driving style/usage once it's on the car.

Thanks for the info Henry, I'm well thanks! I meant above that my 997.1 on PASM is like a limousine vs 6.2 on Ohlins - need more sleep 4 countries in 4 days is taking it's toll...

Still looking at passive damping options. Doing research on JRZ at the mo, but take your point on working with the dampers that your local indie / suspension guru of choice knows well.

Hope the new chariot is treating you well.

Cheers