Jackie Stewart vs Lewis Hamilton, best Brit 3xWDC?

[glazbagun]

Sadly I'm too young to have ever seen JYS race, but hearing all the talk of "greatness" at the US GP made me wonder if you can ever compare the two in their relative eras given that Jackie was driving races like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgd6F-i0JTs

How good was Jackie Stewart in his day? Were people debating about whether he was really all that good back then as we were with Vettel or Lewis last year? Was there an "anyone could win in a Tyrell" contingent or a "he wouldn't know which way Clark/Rindt went" attitude?

I guess it's like boxing in that you can only compete on the tracks your given against the drivers of the day, but how do you think Jackies WDC's rack up against the ones Lewis has won.

[Derek Smith]

I don't think there's much point in trying to compare two drivers from different eras and then classify them under a title of vague as 'great'. There are too many variables. Stewart reckoned he was not as good as Clark but they were around at the same time.

Even if we go onto who was fastest out of the pair, then we get into the real of different skill sets. Driving a DFV-powered car is a wee bit different to driving and F1 car today.

Results are not enough in what is a team game. Also Alonso would get my vote for one of the all-time great drivers but he's unlikely to win anything other than an occasional battle into a corner for the balance of his career, so his end of term report would suggest that he needed to improve on his decision making.

You can't compare: autre temps, autre administratione commerciali.

[Evolved]

Id argue that Hamilton is the 'smarter' driver given his shrude move to Merc at just the right time.
F1 today is so close between the top drivers that it's just the cars that set them apart. If say Alonso had the Merc seat and not Hamilton, would we have seen him win his 3rd?

[Halmyre]

Stewart and Hamilton both have roughly the same wins-per-starts performance - 27% for Stewart, 26% for Hamilton.

But after a promising start in 1965 (3rd in World Championship), Stewart spent two years in the wilderness with BRM as he struggled with the H16 engine (although he nearly won the Indy 500 in 1966). He then threw in his lot with Ken Tyrrell and between them they built up a World Championship winning team (Matra) in just two years, then spent another year in the wilderness before building up another team (Tyrrell) in just one year, winning two WCs in the next three years. Stewart then retired at the top of his game, a rare luxury in those days. And Tyrrell won only seven more races in the next 25 years.

In terms of wins-per-finish, Stewart has 43%, Hamilton has 29%.

And, dare I say it, Stewart behaviour was more gracious and dignified than the present incumbent's.

[lauda]

Halmyre said:

And, dare I say it, Stewart behaviour was more gracious and dignified than the present incumbent's.

In sporting terms, maybe. But even allowing for Hamilton's performance in Russia, I'd still say that Stewart takes the 'toadying up to repugnant and oppressive regimes' award

[Smollet]

I've seen both of them race and they're both fking great drivers. Not much else to say on the matter.

[williamp]

differ drivers in different generations, driving different cars in different ways. Impossible to compare

How would LH deal with manual gear changes?
How would 60s JYS deal with strategy, all the data the drivers get sent, the g forces?

[Halmyre]

lauda said:

Halmyre said:

And, dare I say it, Stewart behaviour was more gracious and dignified than the present incumbent's.

In sporting terms, maybe. But even allowing for Hamilton's performance in Russia, I'd still say that Stewart takes the 'toadying up to repugnant and oppressive regimes' award

Rubbish, I'm quite sure Lewis has met Bernie Ecclestone at some point.

But yes, it's hard to reconcile Stewart the Driver (career - 12 years) with Stewart the Businessman (career - 42 years).

[heebeegeetee]

Halmyre said:

And, dare I say it, Stewart behaviour was more gracious and dignified than the present incumbent's.

To be fair, Stewart was a fashion junkie in his day too, I mean, he had long hair and everything.

We might think Lewis talks pants but JYS could do a lot of talking in his pants https://youtu.be/U3R9hl08O2A 28' 00.

[Vocal Minority]

Also Stewart was a very shrewd marketeer in his day, he isn't so different from Mr Hamilton.

[anonymous-user]

I'll accept Hamilton as great when he is part of a team that develops a winning car, like Stewart Shui, Vettal, until then he doesn't rate as a great with me, I don't rank the likes of Villnuve, Button, as great because of their failure to develop a winning car although they had huge budgets and support.

[williamp]

Berw said:

I'll accept Hamilton as great when he is part of a team that develops a winning car, like Stewart Shui, Vettal, until then he doesn't rate as a great with me, I don't rank the likes of Villnuve, Button, as great because of their failure to develop a winning car although they had huge budgets and support.

What about Samma, Prast, or even Fengio? All of these won their wdc in the best cars. Senna....sorry Samma couldnt make the Willams work well, but both lotus and mclaren were winning cars.

[37chevy]

Berw said:

I'll accept Hamilton as great when he is part of a team that develops a winning car, like Stewart Shui, Vettal, until then he doesn't rate as a great with me, I don't rank the likes of Villnuve, Button, as great because of their failure to develop a winning car although they had huge budgets and support.

Ummm what do you think he is doing now? The merc wasn't a winning car when he stepped into the team....it is now.....

[Halmyre]

37chevy said:

Berw said:

I'll accept Hamilton as great when he is part of a team that develops a winning car, like Stewart Shui, Vettal, until then he doesn't rate as a great with me, I don't rank the likes of Villnuve, Button, as great because of their failure to develop a winning car although they had huge budgets and support.

Ummm what do you think he is doing now? The merc wasn't a winning car when he stepped into the team....it is now.....

AIUI the current car, and its engine, was in development before Lewis joined the team. What with the restrictions on off-season testing, and cars being designed on computers and in wind-tunnels, I don't know how much input a driver can provide these days. If a constructor comes up with a duffer (*cough*McLaren*cough*), the drivers are stuck with it, although that's nothing new; Lotus 76, anyone?

[rdjohn]

The simple fact that JYS survived his 12-year career gives some measure of his greatness. Attending funerals after race weekends was a very regular occurrence in those days. He was also widely disliked at the time because of his strong stance on improving circuit safety.

I think it best to just regard both drivers as being great achievers of their eras.

[heebeegeetee]

Halmyre said:

AIUI the current car, and its engine, was in development before Lewis joined the team. What with the restrictions on off-season testing, and cars being designed on computers and in wind-tunnels, I don't know how much input a driver can provide these days. If a constructor comes up with a duffer (*cough*McLaren*cough*), the drivers are stuck with it, although that's nothing new; Lotus 76, anyone?

Thanks to computerization I don't think the opportunity exists any more for a driver to play a material part in the development of the car. All he can do is work on set-up at the race meetings.

[HewManHeMan]

Berw said:

I'll accept Hamilton as great when he is part of a team that develops a winning car, like Stewart Shui, Vettal, until then he doesn't rate as a great with me, I don't rank the likes of Villnuve, Button, as great because of their failure to develop a winning car although they had huge budgets and support.

Oh for fk sake.

[Blayney]

Halmyre said:

37chevy said:

Berw said:

I'll accept Hamilton as great when he is part of a team that develops a winning car, like Stewart Shui, Vettal, until then he doesn't rate as a great with me, I don't rank the likes of Villnuve, Button, as great because of their failure to develop a winning car although they had huge budgets and support.

Ummm what do you think he is doing now? The merc wasn't a winning car when he stepped into the team....it is now.....

AIUI the current car, and its engine, was in development before Lewis joined the team. What with the restrictions on off-season testing, and cars being designed on computers and in wind-tunnels, I don't know how much input a driver can provide these days. If a constructor comes up with a duffer (*cough*McLaren*cough*), the drivers are stuck with it, although that's nothing new; Lotus 76, anyone?

2009

Car was nowhere in testing. Had scored something like 13 points by the British GP. Hamilton won at least two races with it (Hungary, Singapore...).

Edited by Blayney on Friday 6th November 19:56

[37chevy]

Halmyre said:

AIUI the current car, and its engine, was in development before Lewis joined the team. What with the restrictions on off-season testing, and cars being designed on computers and in wind-tunnels, I don't know how much input a driver can provide these days. If a constructor comes up with a duffer (*cough*McLaren*cough*), the drivers are stuck with it, although that's nothing new; Lotus 76, anyone?

Well with that logic you can strike vettel off your list too, he joined red bull when they had already designed their winning car and just evolved the same car through his time there, and now at Ferrari the car was already designed before he stepped into it

[HewManHeMan]

You shouldn't entertain Berw's reasoning.