Advice needed specific to my C4S - IMS question
Discussion
Hi Guys
I would value some advice from your experience and knowledge. I have read all the posts on IMS and the detailed analysis from Baz and others (here and eleswhere) but would appreciate some advice specific to my position.
I have a 2003 C4S Manual, with 47k miles. Full service history with annual oil changes from OPs and well respected indy. The clutch was replace at 32k miles, so about 15k miles ago. The IMS bearing is the original. The car has not done enough mileage to get to the stage where one can say that it will probably be ok imsb wise (about 60k plus miles I understand).
I am about due for a minor service, but am a bit spooked by a recent 996 and 997 ims failure. So am thinking of perhaps putting in a new clutch, which would give us the chance to check the original IMS bearing, and if it looks good, flip off the outer seal and put it all back together.
So the question is, is that a sensible course of action? I am not too worried about adding a £1000 to my service bill, in exchange for some peace of mind.
Cheers
Rick
I would value some advice from your experience and knowledge. I have read all the posts on IMS and the detailed analysis from Baz and others (here and eleswhere) but would appreciate some advice specific to my position.
I have a 2003 C4S Manual, with 47k miles. Full service history with annual oil changes from OPs and well respected indy. The clutch was replace at 32k miles, so about 15k miles ago. The IMS bearing is the original. The car has not done enough mileage to get to the stage where one can say that it will probably be ok imsb wise (about 60k plus miles I understand).
I am about due for a minor service, but am a bit spooked by a recent 996 and 997 ims failure. So am thinking of perhaps putting in a new clutch, which would give us the chance to check the original IMS bearing, and if it looks good, flip off the outer seal and put it all back together.
So the question is, is that a sensible course of action? I am not too worried about adding a £1000 to my service bill, in exchange for some peace of mind.
Cheers
Rick
Hi YMD
Nice one. Would you take cash?!
Its not the web scaremongering, but Last week there was a guy with a 997 that let go as he arrived at work with a collapsed IMSB and destroyed engine, and a 996 a couple of weeks ago.
So it does happen, and my c4s is at a critical mileage. Loving the car but dont want a 10k bill for a rebuild, if I can avoid it for the cost of a clutch.
It is a tough choice. I am also considering a full Hartech engine rebuild, as I know the end result will be a superb bullit proof engine.
Cheers
Rick
Nice one. Would you take cash?!
Its not the web scaremongering, but Last week there was a guy with a 997 that let go as he arrived at work with a collapsed IMSB and destroyed engine, and a 996 a couple of weeks ago.
So it does happen, and my c4s is at a critical mileage. Loving the car but dont want a 10k bill for a rebuild, if I can avoid it for the cost of a clutch.
It is a tough choice. I am also considering a full Hartech engine rebuild, as I know the end result will be a superb bullit proof engine.
Cheers
Rick
I think the comment on 60k miles to which you refer was a fairly casual observation based on anecdotal experience (happy to be corrected though). But if that's the mileage at which the seal has generally failed, thus allowing oil in and the bearing to survive, is it the only factor? What about operating hours and age? I'd have thought the latter in particular was likely to have a bearing (haha) on the life of the seal.
Personally I'm falling more and more into the "if it ain't broke..." camp, but I'd be interested from those with experience in understanding if there is a pattern of survival on age as well as (or perhaps independently of) mileage.
Personally I'm falling more and more into the "if it ain't broke..." camp, but I'd be interested from those with experience in understanding if there is a pattern of survival on age as well as (or perhaps independently of) mileage.
Molly, Thanks and I am reasonably up to speed on what Hartech offers. In terms of preventative work, you can go the 'preventative future proof' rebuild route, or simply run it until the engine needs stripping and attend to any work needed. This is pretty much what Baz at Hartech advises. If you need to get the gearbox off, then fit a new clutch, check the imsb for any play, whip of the shield and put it back together. If the bearing shows signs of wear there are issues associated with replacing it in situ, and at that point I would be speaking to Hartech on the options. They have an uprated shaft and oversized bearing available.
At this stage I think I have two main choices. Leave the thing alone; keep changing the Mobil 1 regularly and keep an eye open for bits of metal in the filter; or whack in a new clutch at the next minor service as mentioned above.
Hi Griffter, the 60k miles thing is from one of Baz from Hartechs comments. If the imsb has not gone pop by about 60k, it probably won't. The reasoning is that the rubber seals shrink over time, and by this point will probably be letting some splash oil into the bearing. This should then prevent it from wearing out. I am at that critical point (47k miles) where I have not done quite enough miles to get to that point. But maybe after 13 years it has shrunk a bit anyway. Who knows?!
The car has been well looked after all its life, and I like the 'if it aint broke...' philosophy.
On the other hand as another poster has said, if it has tits or a steering wheel you will have trouble with it at some point.
I am still tempted to put a new clutch in as an excuse for a look at the internals at my next minor service in February.
Cheers
Rick
At this stage I think I have two main choices. Leave the thing alone; keep changing the Mobil 1 regularly and keep an eye open for bits of metal in the filter; or whack in a new clutch at the next minor service as mentioned above.
Hi Griffter, the 60k miles thing is from one of Baz from Hartechs comments. If the imsb has not gone pop by about 60k, it probably won't. The reasoning is that the rubber seals shrink over time, and by this point will probably be letting some splash oil into the bearing. This should then prevent it from wearing out. I am at that critical point (47k miles) where I have not done quite enough miles to get to that point. But maybe after 13 years it has shrunk a bit anyway. Who knows?!
The car has been well looked after all its life, and I like the 'if it aint broke...' philosophy.
On the other hand as another poster has said, if it has tits or a steering wheel you will have trouble with it at some point.
I am still tempted to put a new clutch in as an excuse for a look at the internals at my next minor service in February.
Cheers
Rick
Its a difficult one, a bit like Russian Roulette! Changing the oil regularly is defo a good thing but I am afraid makes no difference to the bearing issue.
As you say, the key is whether the seal splits and lets oil lubricate the bearing.
I think I would just leave it and check it at clutch time.
However, if it worries you, it will ruin your enjoyment of the car. In that case, sell or do the full rebuild!
As you say, the key is whether the seal splits and lets oil lubricate the bearing.
I think I would just leave it and check it at clutch time.
However, if it worries you, it will ruin your enjoyment of the car. In that case, sell or do the full rebuild!
It is a difficult one, being serious for a second.. I think at the end of the day the main issue is worrying, in my position (997.1; 2004 so still small bearing) this is the lesser of the two evils so it doesn't seem to make sense to spend money on the IMS when bore scoring may bin the engine anyway, but I have bothered with a low temp sensor.
996 are supposedly less prone to bore scoring so maybe the IMS failure is the big worry issue, so at £1,000 to relax that's probably pretty reasonable, considering I have little option but to put £10k in the bank if I want to relax.....
996 are supposedly less prone to bore scoring so maybe the IMS failure is the big worry issue, so at £1,000 to relax that's probably pretty reasonable, considering I have little option but to put £10k in the bank if I want to relax.....
Mousem40 said:
The Porsche warranty has been increased to 15 years.
2003 + 15 = 2018. Why throw away £1k on some half baked solution when this is just the ticket at the same price?
I don't think the Porsche warranty stands up on this car. He is only going to get 2 years warranty maximum and how much will it cost him to;2003 + 15 = 2018. Why throw away £1k on some half baked solution when this is just the ticket at the same price?
1 - Have the 111 check
2 - Fix EVERYTHING
3 - Replace EVERYTHING none Porsche
3 - Pay 2 years warranty
Theres every chance that all of that could be £5k.
Everyone has an opinion so I will add mine. I would have the bores checked and if they look good then I would pay and get the ims sorted as this would mean you wont be thinking about it all the time and be in the clear for many miles. Pay £1k each year for a porsche warranty or spend £1k once to put one of the biggest risks to bed looks like a no brainer to me. If the bores look like they are failing then i would keep driving it and start saving for a Hartech rebuild.
mollytherocker said:
I don't think the Porsche warranty stands up on this car. He is only going to get 2 years warranty maximum and how much will it cost him to;
1 - Have the 111 check
2 - Fix EVERYTHING
3 - Replace EVERYTHING none Porsche
3 - Pay 2 years warranty
Theres every chance that all of that could be £5k.
There's every chance it could be £1k for the first year and less the second. Why make up figures?1 - Have the 111 check
2 - Fix EVERYTHING
3 - Replace EVERYTHING none Porsche
3 - Pay 2 years warranty
Theres every chance that all of that could be £5k.
The fact is he should at least try. Better that then have sleepless nights wondering if the next time he turns the key the engine detonates. Chasing half baked solutions that don't work certainly isn't the answer and it's cheaper than a £10k rebuild. I'd sell the car after those 2 years, if you're a worrier, having a car like this is not for you, and being told you have to sink 50% of the value of the car into a rebuild is a joke (not the advice, just the fact in itself)
When considering warranty options please don't do so without looking into our Lifetime Maintenance Plan because for a modest monthly payment (you can end anytime) it provides a free service at least every year or 12K (less than Porsche service interval mileages),and that is for parts and labour - it also covers the labour for most repairs (including wear and tear items like brakes, clutches, water pumps etc), a free annual MOT and of coursed the labour to repair and engine and the opportunity to add future proofing modifications at the same time for very little extra. It has no age, mileage or cost limit.
For little more annually than the cost of serving elsewhere this is the least expensive way to run an M96/97 car while providing an affordable way out if the engine fails (and from probably the best engine repair centre available).
Details on www.hartech.org prices for a 997 are £60, £86, £133 and £ 187/month for an annual mileage of up to 3K, 10K, 20K and 30K.
Our charges go up with the annual mileage because we are including/covering the full cost of the servicing and the labour for typical repairs so someone doing 30K say will probably need services at least 5 times in two years (FOC), a set pads each year, discs every two years, a clutch every 4 years and of course the engine mileage will be ramping up significantly - while someone covering up to 3K/annum is unlikely to need most items like that replacing for several years and just one service/12 months.
Baz
For little more annually than the cost of serving elsewhere this is the least expensive way to run an M96/97 car while providing an affordable way out if the engine fails (and from probably the best engine repair centre available).
Details on www.hartech.org prices for a 997 are £60, £86, £133 and £ 187/month for an annual mileage of up to 3K, 10K, 20K and 30K.
Our charges go up with the annual mileage because we are including/covering the full cost of the servicing and the labour for typical repairs so someone doing 30K say will probably need services at least 5 times in two years (FOC), a set pads each year, discs every two years, a clutch every 4 years and of course the engine mileage will be ramping up significantly - while someone covering up to 3K/annum is unlikely to need most items like that replacing for several years and just one service/12 months.
Baz
Segart, I have recently been in the exactly the same position as you ie 2003 car 46k miles and nervous of the possibility of IMSB failure. Again like you I did loads of research and the issue that a majority seemed to agree on was that if the bearing did fail then it was down to lack of lubrication most likely due to the original grease being washed away by engine oil that had breached a failed bearing seal.
As my car was a keeper I wanted to future proof it as best as possible but did not want a pre-emptive rebuild on an engine that was running like a Swiss watch. I have an understanding of engineering and liked the idea of removing the bearing seals to ensure splash lubrication of engine oil but went one step further and fitted a DOF system for peace of mind.
I have been criticised for this belt and braces approach as many consider a direct oil feed to the bearing as unnecessary but with prices of rebuilds/replacement engines I don't think you can over lubricate a bearing, especially one with such a critical role. I never ever worry about my IMSB because I can be sure it's always supplied with oil.
As ever just my opinion and version of events...good luck with the car
As my car was a keeper I wanted to future proof it as best as possible but did not want a pre-emptive rebuild on an engine that was running like a Swiss watch. I have an understanding of engineering and liked the idea of removing the bearing seals to ensure splash lubrication of engine oil but went one step further and fitted a DOF system for peace of mind.
I have been criticised for this belt and braces approach as many consider a direct oil feed to the bearing as unnecessary but with prices of rebuilds/replacement engines I don't think you can over lubricate a bearing, especially one with such a critical role. I never ever worry about my IMSB because I can be sure it's always supplied with oil.
As ever just my opinion and version of events...good luck with the car
Segart, I have recently been in the exactly the same position as you ie 2003 car 46k miles and nervous of the possibility of IMSB failure. Again like you I did loads of research and the issue that a majority seemed to agree on was that if the bearing did fail then it was down to lack of lubrication most likely due to the original grease being washed away by engine oil that had breached a failed bearing seal.
As my car was a keeper I wanted to future proof it as best as possible but did not want a pre-emptive rebuild on an engine that was running like a Swiss watch. I have an understanding of engineering and liked the idea of removing the bearing seals to ensure splash lubrication of engine oil but went one step further and fitted a DOF system for peace of mind.
I have been criticised for this belt and braces approach as many consider a direct oil feed to the bearing as unnecessary but with prices of rebuilds/replacement engines I don't think you can over lubricate a bearing, especially one with such a critical role. I never ever worry about my IMSB because I can be sure it's always supplied with oil.
As ever just my opinion and version of events...good luck with the car
As my car was a keeper I wanted to future proof it as best as possible but did not want a pre-emptive rebuild on an engine that was running like a Swiss watch. I have an understanding of engineering and liked the idea of removing the bearing seals to ensure splash lubrication of engine oil but went one step further and fitted a DOF system for peace of mind.
I have been criticised for this belt and braces approach as many consider a direct oil feed to the bearing as unnecessary but with prices of rebuilds/replacement engines I don't think you can over lubricate a bearing, especially one with such a critical role. I never ever worry about my IMSB because I can be sure it's always supplied with oil.
As ever just my opinion and version of events...good luck with the car
If the bearing is a plain bearing then it needs a direct oil feed delivering some pressure but if it is a ball or roller bearing there is nothing in the bearing design that can retain pressure not benefits from it and the only requirement is actually a very small amount of oil.
This is to some extent evidentially substantiated by the number of ball bearings that continue to run for high mileages with only the small amount of oil that can seep into the bearing past the worn seal edges - with removal of the seal there is more than adequate splash oil supply.
However I would not criticise anyone for fitting a product that was over specified - if they can afford it - as it will (or should) work every bit as well as a less highly spec'd version that fulfils its function just as well and if it also gives the owner peace of mind because they believe there is some mysterious benefit - what's the problem with that (unless that is then promoted as the "best" or the "only" solution - which in this case I don't think it is - well done that man.
Baz
This is to some extent evidentially substantiated by the number of ball bearings that continue to run for high mileages with only the small amount of oil that can seep into the bearing past the worn seal edges - with removal of the seal there is more than adequate splash oil supply.
However I would not criticise anyone for fitting a product that was over specified - if they can afford it - as it will (or should) work every bit as well as a less highly spec'd version that fulfils its function just as well and if it also gives the owner peace of mind because they believe there is some mysterious benefit - what's the problem with that (unless that is then promoted as the "best" or the "only" solution - which in this case I don't think it is - well done that man.
Baz
Baz,
I think your term "over specified" probably sums it up. The problem (lack of lubrication) should be addressed by removing the bearing seals however the addition of a DOF kit probably says more about me than the issue itself!
I don't like weak links in any system and this little extra just makes ownership that bit more relaxed however as you rightly say I would never promote it as the only solution.
NP4
quote=hartech]If the bearing is a plain bearing then it needs a direct oil feed delivering some pressure but if it is a ball or roller bearing there is nothing in the bearing design that can retain pressure not benefits from it and the only requirement is actually a very small amount of oil.
This is to some extent evidentially substantiated by the number of ball bearings that continue to run for high mileages with only the small amount of oil that can seep into the bearing past the worn seal edges - with removal of the seal there is more than adequate splash oil supply.
However I would not criticise anyone for fitting a product that was over specified - if they can afford it - as it will (or should) work every bit as well as a less highly spec'd version that fulfils its function just as well and if it also gives the owner peace of mind because they believe there is some mysterious benefit - what's the problem with that (unless that is then promoted as the "best" or the "only" solution - which in this case I don't think it is - well done that man.
Base
[/quote]
I think your term "over specified" probably sums it up. The problem (lack of lubrication) should be addressed by removing the bearing seals however the addition of a DOF kit probably says more about me than the issue itself!
I don't like weak links in any system and this little extra just makes ownership that bit more relaxed however as you rightly say I would never promote it as the only solution.
NP4
quote=hartech]If the bearing is a plain bearing then it needs a direct oil feed delivering some pressure but if it is a ball or roller bearing there is nothing in the bearing design that can retain pressure not benefits from it and the only requirement is actually a very small amount of oil.
This is to some extent evidentially substantiated by the number of ball bearings that continue to run for high mileages with only the small amount of oil that can seep into the bearing past the worn seal edges - with removal of the seal there is more than adequate splash oil supply.
However I would not criticise anyone for fitting a product that was over specified - if they can afford it - as it will (or should) work every bit as well as a less highly spec'd version that fulfils its function just as well and if it also gives the owner peace of mind because they believe there is some mysterious benefit - what's the problem with that (unless that is then promoted as the "best" or the "only" solution - which in this case I don't think it is - well done that man.
Base
[/quote]
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