Discussion
While I look for solutions to the problems with my ground source heating ( I won't bore you with the detail but basically the builder didnt install all the undewrfloor pipes or enough slinkies), I have been looking at potential compromise options to supplment the system rather than digging all my floors out try to make it work properly.
Anybody got any experience and cost of a system to heat the cold bits of my house (about 1500 sq feet).
Anybody got any experience and cost of a system to heat the cold bits of my house (about 1500 sq feet).
Without wanting to pour salt on a wound, we looked at GSHP for a long time before deciding it would either barely work or would cost so much in electricity to run (not to mention the sky high install costs) that it'd be pointless for anything other than "feeling green", and would take forever and ever to pay off. Also we'd have had to rip out all the radiators and put UFH everywhere to even have a small hope of making it work.
As it was we went with Biomass straight away, plug and play swap with our old oil boiler, and then have subsequently renovated to include wet UFH downstairs and will probably in the next few months replace upstairs rads with UFH as we like it so much.
Headlines:
- "Good" biomass boilers are not cheap.
- if you have your own source of wood, or space for bulk deliveries you're laughing. We used to use exclusively our own, but now take bulk 27-30t deliveries, works our roughly £350pa to provide all our heating and hot water, oil bills were £2500-5000 depending on the cost of oil at the time.
- you need to decide what sort of biomass you want, and plan accordingly - small installations are not cheap and somewhat limited. Pellet, log, chip, or combination boilers all have their own advantages and disadvantages.
- Pellet or log/pellet combi are the nearest you'll get to a "normal" boiler which can run itself. Traditional log boilers need feeding and how often depends on the size of the accumulator. In winter ours needs to be loaded once every 24-48hrs, in summer once every 6-8 days.
- Storage: be it log, pellet or chip, storage and space for the boiler + accumulator is not to be underestimated. Our boiler and Acc plus a pallet worth of backup pellets take up roughly the space of a single garage, we have a triple garage worth of space as a constantly refilled log store. Oh and 30t of logs is quite a bit of space too.
In all, I would (inevitably) say biomass is brilliant - we will have paid ours off in the next 12 months principally from the cost saving switching from oil. It's Austrian, massively efficient and built like the proverbial. Having 70 degree hot water is ideal for baths and radiators, and the UFH just sips at the heat as it goes along. One of the reasons for swapping out the rads upstairs is for yet more cost saving - when the accumulator is up to 70-80 degrees, it'll last for ages when the UFH is only calling for 40. However, it is not a cheap thing to do, it'll scupper your RHI to have a bivalent system (if you have RHI), and I'd think long and hard before trying to tie the two together. It may be a consideration as a wholesale alternative, but look closely at the costs before jumping. They're cheaper now than when we put ours in, but like all things you get what you pay for - granted it's 40kw which would be overkill for you, but purchase and install costs ran to 26k...
As it was we went with Biomass straight away, plug and play swap with our old oil boiler, and then have subsequently renovated to include wet UFH downstairs and will probably in the next few months replace upstairs rads with UFH as we like it so much.
Headlines:
- "Good" biomass boilers are not cheap.
- if you have your own source of wood, or space for bulk deliveries you're laughing. We used to use exclusively our own, but now take bulk 27-30t deliveries, works our roughly £350pa to provide all our heating and hot water, oil bills were £2500-5000 depending on the cost of oil at the time.
- you need to decide what sort of biomass you want, and plan accordingly - small installations are not cheap and somewhat limited. Pellet, log, chip, or combination boilers all have their own advantages and disadvantages.
- Pellet or log/pellet combi are the nearest you'll get to a "normal" boiler which can run itself. Traditional log boilers need feeding and how often depends on the size of the accumulator. In winter ours needs to be loaded once every 24-48hrs, in summer once every 6-8 days.
- Storage: be it log, pellet or chip, storage and space for the boiler + accumulator is not to be underestimated. Our boiler and Acc plus a pallet worth of backup pellets take up roughly the space of a single garage, we have a triple garage worth of space as a constantly refilled log store. Oh and 30t of logs is quite a bit of space too.
In all, I would (inevitably) say biomass is brilliant - we will have paid ours off in the next 12 months principally from the cost saving switching from oil. It's Austrian, massively efficient and built like the proverbial. Having 70 degree hot water is ideal for baths and radiators, and the UFH just sips at the heat as it goes along. One of the reasons for swapping out the rads upstairs is for yet more cost saving - when the accumulator is up to 70-80 degrees, it'll last for ages when the UFH is only calling for 40. However, it is not a cheap thing to do, it'll scupper your RHI to have a bivalent system (if you have RHI), and I'd think long and hard before trying to tie the two together. It may be a consideration as a wholesale alternative, but look closely at the costs before jumping. They're cheaper now than when we put ours in, but like all things you get what you pay for - granted it's 40kw which would be overkill for you, but purchase and install costs ran to 26k...
I am (very effectively) heating 4000 sq ft of house with a GSHP and radiators, but initially looked into biomass quite extensively.
The boilers appear to vary significantly in price and reliability. There is probably a sweet spot but good luck getting an unbiased opinion on what to install.
Boiler required will be dictated by heat demand, which will require a professional, especially as you are looking to supplement an existing system. I would ring a few suitably accredited local firms and get some quotes, then read up on the boilers. I was told Grant are cheap (compared with KWB etc), can have a few Gremlins but once these are ironed out all should be fine. Might be worth the risk considering the savings as you have no doubt spent plenty on heating already.
Personally, I'd be making (someone else make) the ground source system work. Is it a new build? Get someone who knows what they are doing in. Another slinky in the ground and a few radiators?
Will you be able to claim RHI for both systems?!
The boilers appear to vary significantly in price and reliability. There is probably a sweet spot but good luck getting an unbiased opinion on what to install.
Boiler required will be dictated by heat demand, which will require a professional, especially as you are looking to supplement an existing system. I would ring a few suitably accredited local firms and get some quotes, then read up on the boilers. I was told Grant are cheap (compared with KWB etc), can have a few Gremlins but once these are ironed out all should be fine. Might be worth the risk considering the savings as you have no doubt spent plenty on heating already.
Personally, I'd be making (someone else make) the ground source system work. Is it a new build? Get someone who knows what they are doing in. Another slinky in the ground and a few radiators?
Will you be able to claim RHI for both systems?!
RedLeicester said:
GetCarter said:
GSHP here with underfloor heating and has paid for itself almost twice over.
Yours is awesome, but GSHP as a retrofit is very different proposition to building from scratch. 
Edited by GetCarter on Sunday 14th August 17:14
GetCarter said:
That is very true. Wouldn't consider a retrofit. I was responding to the guff about "pointless for anything other than 'feeling green'".
Aye, hence my reply above. I don't know anyone who has gone for renewables to go with their yoghurt and lentils, but plenty who have done it to save a bucket of money.RedLeicester said:
GetCarter said:
That is very true. Wouldn't consider a retrofit. I was responding to the guff about "pointless for anything other than 'feeling green'".
Aye, hence my reply above. I don't know anyone who has gone for renewables to go with their yoghurt and lentils, but plenty who have done it to save a bucket of money.dickymint said:
Does any of this "guff" work in the UK without subsidy? If so I will wave the white flag.
As above.... neither GC nor I have any subsidies. People have been burning logs to keep warm rather longer than the EU has been around for example.Simple calculation:
Burn oil - annual bill £2500-5000 depending on prevailing oil price.
Burn logs in bulk - annual bill £350
Saving = huge.
Subsidy = nowt.
Burn oil - annual bill £2500-5000 depending on prevailing oil price.
GSHP - annual electricity bill £1600
Saving = less huge but still viable
Subsidy = nowt.
I'm sure people will find new and exciting ways to blame the EU for the existence of hundred year old woodland. Nasty evil faceless bureaucratic undemocratic trees.
RedLeicester said:
dickymint said:
Does any of this "guff" work in the UK without subsidy? If so I will wave the white flag.
As above.... neither GC nor I have any subsidies. People have been burning logs to keep warm rather longer than the EU has been around for example.Simple calculation:
Burn oil - annual bill £2500-5000 depending on prevailing oil price.
Burn logs in bulk - annual bill £350
Saving = huge.
Subsidy = nowt.
Burn oil - annual bill £2500-5000 depending on prevailing oil price.
GSHP - annual electricity bill £1600
Saving = less huge but still viable
Subsidy = nowt.
I'm sure people will find new and exciting ways to blame the EU for the existence of hundred year old woodland. Nasty evil faceless bureaucratic undemocratic trees.
Have you checked out the 9% tax hidden on the reverse of every gas and electricity bill issued in the UK? Are you saying that your Biomess install is not part of this?
RedLeicester said:
Without wanting to pour salt on a wound, we looked at GSHP for a long time before deciding it would either barely work or would cost so much in electricity to run (not to mention the sky high install costs) that it'd be pointless for anything other than "feeling green", and would take forever and ever to pay off. Also we'd have had to rip out all the radiators and put UFH everywhere to even have a small hope of making it work.
As it was we went with Biomass straight away, plug and play swap with our old oil boiler, and then have subsequently renovated to include wet UFH downstairs and will probably in the next few months replace upstairs rads with UFH as we like it so much.
Headlines:
- "Good" biomass boilers are not cheap.
- if you have your own source of wood, or space for bulk deliveries you're laughing. We used to use exclusively our own, but now take bulk 27-30t deliveries, works our roughly £350pa to provide all our heating and hot water, oil bills were £2500-5000 depending on the cost of oil at the time.
- you need to decide what sort of biomass you want, and plan accordingly - small installations are not cheap and somewhat limited. Pellet, log, chip, or combination boilers all have their own advantages and disadvantages.
- Pellet or log/pellet combi are the nearest you'll get to a "normal" boiler which can run itself. Traditional log boilers need feeding and how often depends on the size of the accumulator. In winter ours needs to be loaded once every 24-48hrs, in summer once every 6-8 days.
- Storage: be it log, pellet or chip, storage and space for the boiler + accumulator is not to be underestimated. Our boiler and Acc plus a pallet worth of backup pellets take up roughly the space of a single garage, we have a triple garage worth of space as a constantly refilled log store. Oh and 30t of logs is quite a bit of space too.
In all, I would (inevitably) say biomass is brilliant - we will have paid ours off in the next 12 months principally from the cost saving switching from oil. It's Austrian, massively efficient and built like the proverbial. Having 70 degree hot water is ideal for baths and radiators, and the UFH just sips at the heat as it goes along. One of the reasons for swapping out the rads upstairs is for yet more cost saving - when the accumulator is up to 70-80 degrees, it'll last for ages when the UFH is only calling for 40. However, it is not a cheap thing to do, it'll scupper your RHI to have a bivalent system (if you have RHI), and I'd think long and hard before trying to tie the two together. It may be a consideration as a wholesale alternative, but look closely at the costs before jumping. They're cheaper now than when we put ours in, but like all things you get what you pay for - granted it's 40kw which would be overkill for you, but purchase and install costs ran to 26k...
Interesting that you're thinking of UFH upstairs, I am building a house next year and have had a couple of early door chats with an M&E consultant, we are going with gas UFH for the ground floor but he reckons we will be better off with rads upstairs because they warm up quickly, which is a better solution, meaning the bedrooms are cool while you sleep but warm when you wake. Just passing this on.As it was we went with Biomass straight away, plug and play swap with our old oil boiler, and then have subsequently renovated to include wet UFH downstairs and will probably in the next few months replace upstairs rads with UFH as we like it so much.
Headlines:
- "Good" biomass boilers are not cheap.
- if you have your own source of wood, or space for bulk deliveries you're laughing. We used to use exclusively our own, but now take bulk 27-30t deliveries, works our roughly £350pa to provide all our heating and hot water, oil bills were £2500-5000 depending on the cost of oil at the time.
- you need to decide what sort of biomass you want, and plan accordingly - small installations are not cheap and somewhat limited. Pellet, log, chip, or combination boilers all have their own advantages and disadvantages.
- Pellet or log/pellet combi are the nearest you'll get to a "normal" boiler which can run itself. Traditional log boilers need feeding and how often depends on the size of the accumulator. In winter ours needs to be loaded once every 24-48hrs, in summer once every 6-8 days.
- Storage: be it log, pellet or chip, storage and space for the boiler + accumulator is not to be underestimated. Our boiler and Acc plus a pallet worth of backup pellets take up roughly the space of a single garage, we have a triple garage worth of space as a constantly refilled log store. Oh and 30t of logs is quite a bit of space too.
In all, I would (inevitably) say biomass is brilliant - we will have paid ours off in the next 12 months principally from the cost saving switching from oil. It's Austrian, massively efficient and built like the proverbial. Having 70 degree hot water is ideal for baths and radiators, and the UFH just sips at the heat as it goes along. One of the reasons for swapping out the rads upstairs is for yet more cost saving - when the accumulator is up to 70-80 degrees, it'll last for ages when the UFH is only calling for 40. However, it is not a cheap thing to do, it'll scupper your RHI to have a bivalent system (if you have RHI), and I'd think long and hard before trying to tie the two together. It may be a consideration as a wholesale alternative, but look closely at the costs before jumping. They're cheaper now than when we put ours in, but like all things you get what you pay for - granted it's 40kw which would be overkill for you, but purchase and install costs ran to 26k...
Thanks for the tips.
As it stands the builder will be picking up the whole tab and refunding me 5 years of excessive electricty costs. They had already agreed to replace the slinkies (again) with boreholes and replumb the GSHP which the independent engineer said might be caussing some flow issues. They may also need to incrsae the rad size upstairs. Howrever, the engineer did a thermal imaging study of the colder rooms (unable to get 18 degrees in the winter) on the ground floor and it turned out they had not fully installed the wet UFH pipes. Full resolution is all the floors come up through the ground floor (taking up my tiled/wooden floors including a new £9k bathroom of approx 150 sq meters) and install the pipes. That wont be cheap and will be very disruptive and they still have the cost of new bore holes and replumbing in the hope it sorts the problems.
I think I am in a good position to simply ask that they install a top end free standing bio mass system with rads for the ground floor and divert the heat saved from the ground floor to the rest of the house. But I am not sure if that is technically possible.
As it stands the builder will be picking up the whole tab and refunding me 5 years of excessive electricty costs. They had already agreed to replace the slinkies (again) with boreholes and replumb the GSHP which the independent engineer said might be caussing some flow issues. They may also need to incrsae the rad size upstairs. Howrever, the engineer did a thermal imaging study of the colder rooms (unable to get 18 degrees in the winter) on the ground floor and it turned out they had not fully installed the wet UFH pipes. Full resolution is all the floors come up through the ground floor (taking up my tiled/wooden floors including a new £9k bathroom of approx 150 sq meters) and install the pipes. That wont be cheap and will be very disruptive and they still have the cost of new bore holes and replumbing in the hope it sorts the problems.
I think I am in a good position to simply ask that they install a top end free standing bio mass system with rads for the ground floor and divert the heat saved from the ground floor to the rest of the house. But I am not sure if that is technically possible.
Blue62 said:
Interesting that you're thinking of UFH upstairs, I am building a house next year and have had a couple of early door chats with an M&E consultant, we are going with gas UFH for the ground floor but he reckons we will be better off with rads upstairs because they warm up quickly, which is a better solution, meaning the bedrooms are cool while you sleep but warm when you wake. Just passing this on.
Might be worth a chat with a different engineer - independently controlled zones and layback, both easily achievable even with off the shelf UFH controllers will give you whatever temp in whatever room whenever you want it.... If everything just functions off a time clock and TRVs on individual rads and/or a single zone for an entire floor and yes you'll have odd temps at odd times!Hell, even if you just use time locks rather than thermostats on UFH zones you'll still just get on/off heat like a rad. The only difference would be an thermals mass from the system - buried downstairs it'll keep pumping out heat long after the system is switched off, part of what makes it so efficient. Upstairs, most systems don't incorporate any thermal mass so it just functions like a flattened radiator.
Cogcog said:
Spoke with a green energy consultant today who said the ris ena dpredicted rise in bio mass rendered biomass financially unviable!!!
If you're saying what I think you're saying 
then like I said earlier even Greenpiss are anti Bio Mess!! https://www.templateroller.com/template/2075530/fu...
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