Best Petrol for economy
Discussion
I've never been one to find anything "reassuringly" expensive, so I tend to use the cheapest petrol I can get. In my case it tends to be Tesco Momentum. I was somewhat reassured that it's octane rating was higher than many of its competitors. That said, over the years, many people have said that supermarket petrol is inferior. Most have been people who are of the "reassuringly expensive" pursuasion - whom I generally ignore. However one or two are of a more analytical mindset and have actually done back to back tests - so I did so myself - using Shell Vpower rather than Momentum in my 981 Cayman S (PDK)
It's always difficult for Joe Public to do genuinely objective economy comparisons - traffic, wind, temperature all make it difficult. Over a few weeks of mixed motoring I'd come to conclusion that VPower definitely did give better economy - but wasn't sure how much. Last weekend I was able to come to more definitive conclusions. I often make a 200 odd mile trip to the West Country, predominantly motorway but with a mix of dual and single carriageway too. Traffic generally limits speed to vaguely legal so it's mostly with PDK in Normal, but odd bits of manual and a fair number of overrides. I normally expect to get around 37 - 37.5 mpg in decent conditions, never more. This weekend, with only light wind I got 39.7 and would have got over 40 had it not been for a mile of stop start traffic.
So I'm pretty convince that VPower has a couple of mpg advantage over Momentum on a long run, and, if you can get it for even near the same price, is a much better buy. Can't say I noticed any performance or smoothness advantage though.
I also tried a similar test with my wife's car - a Seat Ibiza 1.4 Ecotsi. Even though it's a turbo with a 10:1 compression ratio it only requires 95 octane fuel. On that car VPower did give an economy boost over 95 octane Tesco Petrol (as does Momentum), but we couldn't detect any advantage with ordinary "FuelSave" Shell. However the short journeys it makes make definitive conclusions more difficult. In any case VPower or Momentum wouldn't be cost effective, given the price differential to regular petrol.
Anyone come to similar/different conclusions?
It's always difficult for Joe Public to do genuinely objective economy comparisons - traffic, wind, temperature all make it difficult. Over a few weeks of mixed motoring I'd come to conclusion that VPower definitely did give better economy - but wasn't sure how much. Last weekend I was able to come to more definitive conclusions. I often make a 200 odd mile trip to the West Country, predominantly motorway but with a mix of dual and single carriageway too. Traffic generally limits speed to vaguely legal so it's mostly with PDK in Normal, but odd bits of manual and a fair number of overrides. I normally expect to get around 37 - 37.5 mpg in decent conditions, never more. This weekend, with only light wind I got 39.7 and would have got over 40 had it not been for a mile of stop start traffic.
So I'm pretty convince that VPower has a couple of mpg advantage over Momentum on a long run, and, if you can get it for even near the same price, is a much better buy. Can't say I noticed any performance or smoothness advantage though.
I also tried a similar test with my wife's car - a Seat Ibiza 1.4 Ecotsi. Even though it's a turbo with a 10:1 compression ratio it only requires 95 octane fuel. On that car VPower did give an economy boost over 95 octane Tesco Petrol (as does Momentum), but we couldn't detect any advantage with ordinary "FuelSave" Shell. However the short journeys it makes make definitive conclusions more difficult. In any case VPower or Momentum wouldn't be cost effective, given the price differential to regular petrol.
Anyone come to similar/different conclusions?
Edited by bcr5784 on Tuesday 15th August 09:30
Funnily I just filled up my 997.1 with Shell V-Power 100. I usually take 98 Octane, but I was below "0 miles left" and needed some petrol desperately and Shell was the nearest station coming up. Once in a while I treat every car of mine with that juice, but since it costs 25 cents (Swiss Franc cents that is) more than 98 Octane I don't fill up with it on a regular basis.
So having the car brimmed with Shell V-Power 100 with almost no other petrol diluting its magic powers, I headed for the swiss Autobahns.
I had the feeling the car was running really good, but that probably was due to the cold air and a placebo effect on my part. Driving was a 300 miles round trip with part heavy traffic, 80 mph cruising and the occasional overtake where I maybe have gone a bit faster for a second.
And now for the astonishing part: The trip computer tells me that I have averaged 29 mpg (9.7l/100km) for those past 300 miles!!
I'm now up to 320 miles and the reserve light has yet to come up! I don't calculate brim to brim, but usually I achieve 25 mpg according to the trip computer with the same driving style.
So the improved fuel economy might be down to the Shell V-Power, but since the price difference is immense, under no circumstances you'd get your money back. But a full tank of it once in a while might do the engine good!
So having the car brimmed with Shell V-Power 100 with almost no other petrol diluting its magic powers, I headed for the swiss Autobahns.
I had the feeling the car was running really good, but that probably was due to the cold air and a placebo effect on my part. Driving was a 300 miles round trip with part heavy traffic, 80 mph cruising and the occasional overtake where I maybe have gone a bit faster for a second.
And now for the astonishing part: The trip computer tells me that I have averaged 29 mpg (9.7l/100km) for those past 300 miles!!
I'm now up to 320 miles and the reserve light has yet to come up! I don't calculate brim to brim, but usually I achieve 25 mpg according to the trip computer with the same driving style.
So the improved fuel economy might be down to the Shell V-Power, but since the price difference is immense, under no circumstances you'd get your money back. But a full tank of it once in a while might do the engine good!
I haven't analysed it as scientifically as you, but I've been a long time advocate of using " decent " fuel for years now. My first experience of the differences was years ago in a Corolla GTI that regularly used to get filled up every week at the local Tesco. This was long before Momentum was invented. I took it for granted for a while that the " hanging back " sensation it displayed was just the way the power was delivered, but then drove a customers car ( I worked at a Toyota dealer at the time ) which didn't do the same thing.
I suspected an ecu fault, we faffed on with it for a few nights after work with no result, it ran low on fuel, and for the first time in months I filled it with Shell from the garage close to work. Different car, and it turned out I wasn't the only one who had experienced the same issue. The car was probably pulling timing to compensate for poorer fuel.
I drive regularly from Newcastle to Southampton and back, I've tried the trip on supermarket diesel in the van, and also on Shell nitro diesel. It goes significantly further on the better stuff, and it also seems to adjust to the better stuff performance wise. The thing we own that really seems to notice the difference is my other half's auto Lexus IS, on the cheaper stuff it feels flat compared to Momentum or Nitro.
I'm not especially bothered about mpg, but I hate the feeling I'm not getting all the performance possible on a long trip. My Evo is mapped for Nitro, but I can't tell the difference between that and Momentum, and it runs fine on BP Ultimate.
My experiences would indicate that the additional initial expense of filling up with Nitro etc, is offset by the vehicle going further on a tank of the stuff. However, I don't tend to make comparisons between the different performance brands, I'm happy to use either Momentum or Shell.
I suspected an ecu fault, we faffed on with it for a few nights after work with no result, it ran low on fuel, and for the first time in months I filled it with Shell from the garage close to work. Different car, and it turned out I wasn't the only one who had experienced the same issue. The car was probably pulling timing to compensate for poorer fuel.
I drive regularly from Newcastle to Southampton and back, I've tried the trip on supermarket diesel in the van, and also on Shell nitro diesel. It goes significantly further on the better stuff, and it also seems to adjust to the better stuff performance wise. The thing we own that really seems to notice the difference is my other half's auto Lexus IS, on the cheaper stuff it feels flat compared to Momentum or Nitro.
I'm not especially bothered about mpg, but I hate the feeling I'm not getting all the performance possible on a long trip. My Evo is mapped for Nitro, but I can't tell the difference between that and Momentum, and it runs fine on BP Ultimate.
My experiences would indicate that the additional initial expense of filling up with Nitro etc, is offset by the vehicle going further on a tank of the stuff. However, I don't tend to make comparisons between the different performance brands, I'm happy to use either Momentum or Shell.
I do think Shell have done a very good marketing job with their V-power, in the same way that Mobil did with Mobil 1, but I honestly don't believe there is a detectable difference between fuels in most modern cars for road use.
It would be nice to think that the extra cost brought some benefits, and there may be a placebo effect, but I'd be interested to see scientific evidence that it confirms a measurable difference in normal use.
It would be nice to think that the extra cost brought some benefits, and there may be a placebo effect, but I'd be interested to see scientific evidence that it confirms a measurable difference in normal use.
Koln-RS said:
I do think Shell have done a very good marketing job with their V-power, in the same way that Mobil did with Mobil 1, but I honestly don't believe there is a detectable difference between fuels in most modern cars for road use.
It would be nice to think that the extra cost brought some benefits, and there may be a placebo effect, but I'd be interested to see scientific evidence that it confirms a measurable difference in normal use.
I think the test I did does confirm measurable evidence at least on long runs. Haven't done back to back with Shell vs Esso vs BP, but I'm 100% sure VPower gives better economy than Momentum.It would be nice to think that the extra cost brought some benefits, and there may be a placebo effect, but I'd be interested to see scientific evidence that it confirms a measurable difference in normal use.
I use V-Power. No idea whether it is better for fuel economy, but manufacturer recommends 98RON minimum, so that is what I will fill up with.
Annoyingly this limits owners to Shell & Tesco (never been to Tesco though). Have found that motorway driving at ~50mph (ala M25) returns the best fuel economy (39/40mpg).
Reading online it seems to suggest that premium fuels do offer better fuel economy, despite being better for the engine. But all suggest usually not going massively out of your way to get premium fuel, over standard.
Annoyingly this limits owners to Shell & Tesco (never been to Tesco though). Have found that motorway driving at ~50mph (ala M25) returns the best fuel economy (39/40mpg).
Reading online it seems to suggest that premium fuels do offer better fuel economy, despite being better for the engine. But all suggest usually not going massively out of your way to get premium fuel, over standard.
Well here's a little gem of information I found out years ago sad used to make install some of the testing equipment for the labs at all the major oil companies. I asked the same question of somebody and apparently the same fuel leaves a certain depot destined for BP and Sainsbury's. The BP fuel gets the additive and the Cheaper supermarket fuel doesn't.
I also worked alongside the engine testing t BP and they said they would buy the higher octane fuel .... the fuel economy may not be much different but the performance is definitely better. The engine takes a while to adjust and compensate for any octane difference so may take 1/2 a tank for any major change. This was 12-years ago, so things may have changed.
Bottom line is I use the decent Shell stuff but that's just because it is the most convenient garage.
BP used to have great engine testing facilities and bought Mobil I believe but Shell had the best labs. Just don't ask about the Indian diesel testing !
You pays your money and you takes your chance ...
I also worked alongside the engine testing t BP and they said they would buy the higher octane fuel .... the fuel economy may not be much different but the performance is definitely better. The engine takes a while to adjust and compensate for any octane difference so may take 1/2 a tank for any major change. This was 12-years ago, so things may have changed.
Bottom line is I use the decent Shell stuff but that's just because it is the most convenient garage.
BP used to have great engine testing facilities and bought Mobil I believe but Shell had the best labs. Just don't ask about the Indian diesel testing !
You pays your money and you takes your chance ...
Some years ago EVO did a petrol test using a VW Golf GTi with 2.0l turbo charged engine and a BMW M5 with a N/A V8.
The test consisted of running several tanks of fuel through to ensure no contamination then dyno, road test and track testing.
The take aways were while in some cases supermarket petrol was the equal of one of the name brands often the supermarket petrol was subpar. This was attributed to the variabilty of the supplier as supermarket stations exist on slim margins and price often leads them to use different suppliers which accounts for the variability in petrol quality.
Even name brand petrol could sometimes be subpar and this was attributed to staleness. The recommendation was to seek out the busiest station to ensure gettng the freshest petrol.
Also, the recommendation was to run the proper grade of octane. This allows the DME to run as much advance as it can which results in extracting the most mechanical energy from the chemical energy in the petrol. As a result the engine is more efficient and delivers better fuel mileage.
Our Porsche engines run at incipient detonation and a lower grade of octane has the DME dialing back timing which hurts efficiency and results in higher exhaust gas temperatures. The result in some of the chemical energy of the burning fuel goes out the tail pipe.
Shell Optimax was the choice: "Of all the fuels, the GTi felt the crispest and the most fun to drive on this. It would be my choice."
Here in CA where I live/drive I had been using Shell V-Power: The station was large, conventiently located and its prices were competitive. But when the station manangement raised prices I switched to a nearby Chevron station with lower prices. An unexpected benefit was after I switched to Chevron Supreme my 2002 Boxster 2.7l perked up some after just a tank or two. Chevron has Techron which is a pretty good fuel system, engine deposit cleaner. I spoke to the techs about my experience and they confirmed Chevron gasoline has this benefit and some run Chevron gasoline all the time. A few prefer Shell -- the extra power being the attraction -- but admitted to once in a while running a tank of Chevron for its detergent benefits.
The test consisted of running several tanks of fuel through to ensure no contamination then dyno, road test and track testing.
The take aways were while in some cases supermarket petrol was the equal of one of the name brands often the supermarket petrol was subpar. This was attributed to the variabilty of the supplier as supermarket stations exist on slim margins and price often leads them to use different suppliers which accounts for the variability in petrol quality.
Even name brand petrol could sometimes be subpar and this was attributed to staleness. The recommendation was to seek out the busiest station to ensure gettng the freshest petrol.
Also, the recommendation was to run the proper grade of octane. This allows the DME to run as much advance as it can which results in extracting the most mechanical energy from the chemical energy in the petrol. As a result the engine is more efficient and delivers better fuel mileage.
Our Porsche engines run at incipient detonation and a lower grade of octane has the DME dialing back timing which hurts efficiency and results in higher exhaust gas temperatures. The result in some of the chemical energy of the burning fuel goes out the tail pipe.
Shell Optimax was the choice: "Of all the fuels, the GTi felt the crispest and the most fun to drive on this. It would be my choice."
Here in CA where I live/drive I had been using Shell V-Power: The station was large, conventiently located and its prices were competitive. But when the station manangement raised prices I switched to a nearby Chevron station with lower prices. An unexpected benefit was after I switched to Chevron Supreme my 2002 Boxster 2.7l perked up some after just a tank or two. Chevron has Techron which is a pretty good fuel system, engine deposit cleaner. I spoke to the techs about my experience and they confirmed Chevron gasoline has this benefit and some run Chevron gasoline all the time. A few prefer Shell -- the extra power being the attraction -- but admitted to once in a while running a tank of Chevron for its detergent benefits.
We have a Shell station near us and I always try and use Shell V Power if I can. I avoid supermarket field like the plague, they might come out of the same refineries as supermarket field but they do not have the same additives. My wife worked in UK's largest oil refinery so it isn't BS. I've found a significant difference in fuel economy for the worse when I use supermarket fuel too!
It's been discussed many times on here, strictly speaking, different fuel suppliers and grades can make a difference - more power [i]should[/b] equal more mpg for the same driving etc...
My personal experience is 95% of the time (for many years), I use Shell V-Power unless in an emergency...
Some years ago, I put jet fuel in my old GTi, it ran like a dog. I though it was knackered until the next tank of Shell sorted it!
5th Gear fuel test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTaBngvsPrc
Though it would be good if Top Gear did a modern definitive (scientific) test on both power and economy...
My personal experience is 95% of the time (for many years), I use Shell V-Power unless in an emergency...
Some years ago, I put jet fuel in my old GTi, it ran like a dog. I though it was knackered until the next tank of Shell sorted it!
5th Gear fuel test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTaBngvsPrc
Though it would be good if Top Gear did a modern definitive (scientific) test on both power and economy...
Clearly using 98 octane fuel is desirable in cars such as Porsche where the engine is set up to run on it. Yes, the engines will run fine on 95 octane, but the anti-knock sensors alter the timing off optimum to compensate, hence efficiency and power suffer. I also use V Power diesel in my daily-drive car.
Repeat below of my post here: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
A month ago my wife's 2016 BMW X1 2.0d threw an error message "reduced drivetrain power" and started stuttering.
BMW emergency services were here in 30 mins. Took the EGR valve out and cleaned it (replaced by dealer a week later for good measure). The mature technician, 17 years with BMW and prior with Porsche, Lamborghini, and Rolls Royce, asked "have you been using supermarket fuel?" "Yes." "Well, that's your problem."
Advised only use Shell, Texaco, BP, as they double refine their fuels whereas others add sulphur to boost the octane rating and this contributes to the carbon build up. Does that make any sense?
Anyhow, I believed him 100% and my wife has avoided the supermarkets ever since. I've always put Shell V-Power in my 981.
A month ago my wife's 2016 BMW X1 2.0d threw an error message "reduced drivetrain power" and started stuttering.
BMW emergency services were here in 30 mins. Took the EGR valve out and cleaned it (replaced by dealer a week later for good measure). The mature technician, 17 years with BMW and prior with Porsche, Lamborghini, and Rolls Royce, asked "have you been using supermarket fuel?" "Yes." "Well, that's your problem."
Advised only use Shell, Texaco, BP, as they double refine their fuels whereas others add sulphur to boost the octane rating and this contributes to the carbon build up. Does that make any sense?
Anyhow, I believed him 100% and my wife has avoided the supermarkets ever since. I've always put Shell V-Power in my 981.
In my experience no mpg gain with V-Power and the like. But to think in terms of mpg is missing the point - it's about quality. The super-premium fuels I think have more additives that help keep injectors clean - and injectors are highly complex and very finely engineered bits of kit that are worth looking after, especially in today's auto-stop/start world.
Thus I:
- Avoid supermarket fill-ups and go for Esso or Shell if possible
- Always fill my Porsche with SUL
- Treat my other motors to a tankful of SUL from time to time.
Thus I:
- Avoid supermarket fill-ups and go for Esso or Shell if possible
- Always fill my Porsche with SUL
- Treat my other motors to a tankful of SUL from time to time.
Interesting video but no way the engine would have time to adjust that quickly. I think that the way you drive is far more likely to effect the fuel economy anyway. Most of us buy these cars so we want to go a bit quick so fuel economy isn't the prime consideration. BP set up a demo at Goodwood one year with a couple of Saab's (so probably unrepeatable) on rolling roads next to each other and ran them up through the gears on a 321 go sort of thing. There wasn't a lot of difference on absolute power like in the video. However the Super duper juice was consistent in delivery, the standard fuel was often 20 bhp down and these engines had time to adjust.
That said the CFR engine used to create the RON numbers for the fuel was designed during the war (probably god forbid to see if Brandy was a suitable substitute for petrol) so I can't imagine its that accurate.
= expect you will always get a good tank or a bad tank hence I always buy the fuel from the suppliers with the best labs and not the supermarkets.
Would love to get a more informed opinion from somebody who has more recent knowledge than mine as to who's is best though. Is anybody out there working for the government checking octane ratings at service stations ? ....
That said the CFR engine used to create the RON numbers for the fuel was designed during the war (probably god forbid to see if Brandy was a suitable substitute for petrol) so I can't imagine its that accurate.
= expect you will always get a good tank or a bad tank hence I always buy the fuel from the suppliers with the best labs and not the supermarkets.
Would love to get a more informed opinion from somebody who has more recent knowledge than mine as to who's is best though. Is anybody out there working for the government checking octane ratings at service stations ? ....
Advised only use Shell, Texaco, BP, as they double refine their fuels whereas others add sulphur to boost the octane rating and this contributes to the carbon build up. Does that make any sense?
Nope its Total tosh Im afraid. If you knew how much expense goes into removing sulphur the idea of adding it again is laughable. Double refining trust me they dont.
I work in the industry and know the brands well. Part of the reason you will get better economy with the high octane premium fuels is that they dont contain ethanol which reduces economy so yes you will get better mpg and thats before considering the additives of which there are more in premium and the well known ignition timing not being retarded.
Nope its Total tosh Im afraid. If you knew how much expense goes into removing sulphur the idea of adding it again is laughable. Double refining trust me they dont.
I work in the industry and know the brands well. Part of the reason you will get better economy with the high octane premium fuels is that they dont contain ethanol which reduces economy so yes you will get better mpg and thats before considering the additives of which there are more in premium and the well known ignition timing not being retarded.
Just my opinion but I only ever use Shell V Power... super market fuel is inferior as far as i'm concerned - I don't put it in my lawnmower.
Shell's whole business is fuel and their work/research in motorsport etc have produced superior fuels with additives that protect the engine.
Supermarkets are mainly concerned with convenience and being good value.
Shell's whole business is fuel and their work/research in motorsport etc have produced superior fuels with additives that protect the engine.
Supermarkets are mainly concerned with convenience and being good value.
Edited by hixster on Sunday 20th August 00:06
The oil companies by additives from chemical companies (Afton, Lubrizol, Infineum, Innospec and others), its these additives that differentiate the brands at the pumps. They can boost octane ratings for example. They also help keep injectors clean. its big business, the additive company spend hundreds of millions annually developing new formulations. All the tests in Europe are run to CEC procedures and several independent labs run the tests; check out Millbrook, ISP, etc. Its all closely regulated and if the oil company claims its will give you 1mpg more, they can prove it.
Current engine management systems (ECUs) can adapt to a change in fuel in just a few milliseconds. Fill with 100RON and the ECU will advance the ignition to the knock threshold in about 10 revolutions of the crank, and keep readjusting it every 3-4 revs. Fuel with 95RON an the ignition will be adjusted before you have selected first gear after crank and firing.
Current engine management systems (ECUs) can adapt to a change in fuel in just a few milliseconds. Fill with 100RON and the ECU will advance the ignition to the knock threshold in about 10 revolutions of the crank, and keep readjusting it every 3-4 revs. Fuel with 95RON an the ignition will be adjusted before you have selected first gear after crank and firing.
engineermk said:
. All the tests in Europe are run to CEC procedures and several independent labs run the tests; check out Millbrook, ISP, etc. Its all closely regulated and if the oil company claims its will give you 1mpg more, they can prove it.
.
It's what the 1mpg more is relative to that is significant. I'm not interested in the fact that shell diesel gives "up to" 3mpg more relative to their own fuel without any additives, it's how it compares with the opposition that is important - and I haven't seen anything which gives that sort of information, hence the limited tests I made, albeit under conditions that aren't anything like as controlled as I would wish. .
I've been doing this experiment over last few months, keeping receipts, logging miles etc. No significant difference in economy in my cars with my driving.
More subjectively, my two cents worth is that both cars (currently Cayman R and Audi S5) have more top end power on Momentum, slightly better low-rev power on V-power and are both smoother across the rev range on V-power.
Around here, at twenty pence a litre difference in price (and given recent belt-tightening at Oso Towers) I've been seeking out Momentum of late. Was slightly worried about it not being as good as for the car (probably pure snobbery). In fact there seems to be less soot after 5k miles on Momentum than from the previous 5k miles on V-power. I also put in a tank of V-power every four or five fills for good luck... I suspect it might have slightly better (or at least different) cleaning agents and that might be a good thing.
It's also interesting how the octane on V-power varies across Europe. 99 RON in UK, 100 RON in Germany for example. We get a bit short changed here perhaps?! Although we do better than the Dutch - it's 98 in the NL.
More subjectively, my two cents worth is that both cars (currently Cayman R and Audi S5) have more top end power on Momentum, slightly better low-rev power on V-power and are both smoother across the rev range on V-power.
Around here, at twenty pence a litre difference in price (and given recent belt-tightening at Oso Towers) I've been seeking out Momentum of late. Was slightly worried about it not being as good as for the car (probably pure snobbery). In fact there seems to be less soot after 5k miles on Momentum than from the previous 5k miles on V-power. I also put in a tank of V-power every four or five fills for good luck... I suspect it might have slightly better (or at least different) cleaning agents and that might be a good thing.
It's also interesting how the octane on V-power varies across Europe. 99 RON in UK, 100 RON in Germany for example. We get a bit short changed here perhaps?! Although we do better than the Dutch - it's 98 in the NL.
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