Would you wait 45 minutes when filling up to get it free?
Poll: Would you wait 45 minutes when filling up to get it free?
Total Members Polled: 461
Discussion
InitialDave said:
Yeah, I wasn't really thinking about that level of detail. More along the lines of "what's the sniff test like on a crowded street?".
And in crowded, slow speed traffic, an EV becomes more efficient as speed falls, unlike your ICE which once out of top gear suffers massively as engine friction starts to dominate the losses. ICE cars have min consumption at around 40 mph, the point at which you can juuussst get into top gear, so the engine turns the least number of times for any given distance driven. Below 40mph, your engine frictional losses out weigh the true road load.In stop start traffic, your MPG plummets in an ICE as you continue to consume fuel, but travel less distance. But an EV, has lower and lower loses as speed falls to zero. (because it has effectively no engine friction, and at low speed, it's power train is also spinning very slowly)
I got stuck in heavy traffic the other day in my i3, when the M1 was shut by a crash, and it took 1.5 hours to do 12 miles (9 mph average speed) and my i3 returned an incredible 9.8 kwh/100km (163 Wh/Mile) which is equivalent, in energy consumption terms as a diesel ICE doing 276 mpg. And in that traffic, no diesel was doing 276mpg, that's for sure!
Max_Torque said:
I got stuck in heavy traffic the other day in my i3, when the M1 was shut by a crash, and it took 1.5 hours to do 12 miles (9 mph average speed) and my i3 returned an incredible 9.8 kwh/100km (163 Wh/Mile) which is equivalent, in energy consumption terms as a diesel ICE doing 276 mpg. And in that traffic, no diesel was doing 276mpg, that's for sure!
Interesting to see some real figures for that kind use, how much of that do you reckon was ancillaries? siovey said:
Ares said:
In which case, the savings are greater....?
True. Not much I can say against this logic. But my point is, I'd rather be doing something else rather than sitting around in my car for 45 mins to save 60 quid. Now, if I could sit my fat lazy ass on the sofa for the same deal....
You can go and do whatever you want?
InitialDave said:
Efbe said:
unless of course you have a different way of generating the electricity.
I'd say emission free methods are still a low enough part of our power generation that it'd be a bit disingenuous to claim them as making EVs an emissions free option.counterofbeans said:
Integroo said:
Slightly strange question. Why would this happen?
If a tank of fuel costs fifty quid, so you'd save forty five quid, so it's effectively getting paid sixty quid an hour. More than most earn I'd imagine.
It's a not-very-cunningly disguised EV recharge question.If a tank of fuel costs fifty quid, so you'd save forty five quid, so it's effectively getting paid sixty quid an hour. More than most earn I'd imagine.
http://www.zdnet.com/article/watch-teslas-90-secon...
Tesla with 200-300 mile range, pay a battery subscription, pull into a battery station (petrol station equivalent), it takes 1 min to swap/slide out one battery pack and slide in the fully charged one. Charged on DD monthly for the charges. You never own one battery but have access to loads of them.
Early days, but wow.....
Max_Torque said:
InitialDave said:
So you believe that EVs are completely free of emissions, then?
Of course not. For the Uk even if you burn coal its still better for people in general to use EV cars instead of burning petrol/diesel
Max_Torque said:
And in crowded, slow speed traffic, an EV becomes more efficient as speed falls, unlike your ICE which once out of top gear suffers massively as engine friction starts to dominate the losses. ICE cars have min consumption at around 40 mph, the point at which you can juuussst get into top gear, so the engine turns the least number of times for any given distance driven. Below 40mph, your engine frictional losses out weigh the true road load.
In stop start traffic, your MPG plummets in an ICE as you continue to consume fuel, but travel less distance. But an EV, has lower and lower loses as speed falls to zero. (because it has effectively no engine friction, and at low speed, it's power train is also spinning very slowly)
I got stuck in heavy traffic the other day in my i3, when the M1 was shut by a crash, and it took 1.5 hours to do 12 miles (9 mph average speed) and my i3 returned an incredible 9.8 kwh/100km (163 Wh/Mile) which is equivalent, in energy consumption terms as a diesel ICE doing 276 mpg. And in that traffic, no diesel was doing 276mpg, that's for sure!
Interesting post, thanks very much for taking the trouble to get into that sort of detail. Not seen anything like that before, but now you have analysed it that way seems logical. Ok extreme situation on the M1, but not extreme if you think of city traffic.In stop start traffic, your MPG plummets in an ICE as you continue to consume fuel, but travel less distance. But an EV, has lower and lower loses as speed falls to zero. (because it has effectively no engine friction, and at low speed, it's power train is also spinning very slowly)
I got stuck in heavy traffic the other day in my i3, when the M1 was shut by a crash, and it took 1.5 hours to do 12 miles (9 mph average speed) and my i3 returned an incredible 9.8 kwh/100km (163 Wh/Mile) which is equivalent, in energy consumption terms as a diesel ICE doing 276 mpg. And in that traffic, no diesel was doing 276mpg, that's for sure!
My answer to the question as posted? Of course yes. But, that's not something that's being offered by anyone. Apart from Tesla, with a £100,000 price tag(?)
Is the question could I live with an EV, I probably could. As a second car we have a VW Up! An EV could easily do every journey we've done in the past year apart from an 84 mile unplanned trip, (a 45 min stop halfway would have just meant later dinner).
But the cost difference for 5,000 miles pa is around £300 between petrol and electric. At the moment the cost difference doesn't make it a viable option (for us).
If there was a £10/ day congestion charge, that could well tip the scales, but for us it's a straight cost comparison that doesn't add up. (Yet), (for us).
Is the question could I live with an EV, I probably could. As a second car we have a VW Up! An EV could easily do every journey we've done in the past year apart from an 84 mile unplanned trip, (a 45 min stop halfway would have just meant later dinner).
But the cost difference for 5,000 miles pa is around £300 between petrol and electric. At the moment the cost difference doesn't make it a viable option (for us).
If there was a £10/ day congestion charge, that could well tip the scales, but for us it's a straight cost comparison that doesn't add up. (Yet), (for us).
FiF said:
See what you did there, possibly accidentally, ho hum.
Purely down to my fat fingers I'm afraid 
FiF said:
But agree it's a massive amount of depreciation, even for a blob on wheels, including the battery, and there are rather a lot of ICE blobs on wheels too I'd say.
There are indeed some ICE blobs, but also large spread of designs ranging from ugly through quirky to beautiful. With a few notable exceptions, EVs seem to mainly fall into the shapeless blob category. Is this an aero thing or marketing driven?£9k including the battery does seem like very good value. If/when I get an EV it needs to replace my current car, and fulfil it's place as both transport and something I actually enjoy owning and driving. In all honesty a Leaf isn't something I'd actually want to own, even if it saved me money in the longer term.
FiF said:
Introducing the extra indefinable parameter of something the average PH'er might enjoy tilts the playing field to a level that imo excludes all EVs. People report the amusement factor of eg the Tesla acceleration, that would pall very quickly in my view, seeing as all reports seem to indicate they are very dead pan in the bendy bits.
Equally there are some PHers who own quite interesting transport who also enjoy an EV when the purpose of that journey is simply to get to the other end with as little effort as possible, for example a city bound commute.
A fun car and a boring EV is probably the best combination, and if I didn't have parking restrictions it would be a 'no-brainer' in my case. However, until we move, which likely won't be for a few years, owning more than one car is a massive PITA.Equally there are some PHers who own quite interesting transport who also enjoy an EV when the purpose of that journey is simply to get to the other end with as little effort as possible, for example a city bound commute.
There is no real argument against the use of EVs for shorter commutes into/out of cities, provided adequate charging facilities exist at one end or the other (and they don't, yet, for a lot of people).
FiF said:
To combine the fun, acceleration and commute issues, sometimes see a guy who commutes in his Maserati into Worcester, wonderful noise etc etc, but frankly his fairly generous throttle openings as he accelerates through hordes of milling pedestrians outside Foregate Street station rather marks him out. That's quite an expensive entry fee with fair old depreciation into the being a bit of a dick subset. Sorry if disapproval means handing in PH card, but if that's behaviour an average member should applaud then not in my name.
I can't excuse people behaving like dicks in ICE cars, no doubt the peacocks with inadequacy problems will find a way to behave like dicks in an EV car as well. RobDickinson said:
Tesla have given up on battery swapping
No it's not. They've been filing patents in that last month: https://www.engadget.com/2017/09/17/tesla-envision...
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