Advice needed with 45 in 30 magistrates case
Discussion
I'd be grateful if anyone can quickly give me some advice on this - thanks in advance (and sorry for a long post):
I was driving my new S2000 in a 30 zone, well in my opinion it was not obviously a 30 zone, it was built up on one side, but there was a big field on the other side, and on the built up side the houses were not right next to the pavement.
I was doing 47 mph. In an S2000 you don't get a trend indication of speed like with an analogue speed needle, you just see numbers on a backlit LCD display, with the main emphasis on the tacho graph.
I got pulled over. I didn't give the officer any attitude problem, I explained I've just bought the car a few days ago, I'm getting used to it and trying to be careful, but on this occasion I made a mistake with my speed. The officer asked if I new what speed I was doing. I told him precisely '47' which he seemed to appreciate, rather than a vague answer like 40+ or 45. 47 was only my momentary peak speak, and it was less than 45 most of the time the gatso was monitoring me.
The officer admired my car and asked some technical questions about it, which I answered. He then said, I'm gonna put it down as 45, not 47. I said thanks. I said I was picking up a relative from the hospital after an operation (which is true and I can prove it), and it's a new car, getting used to it, no speedo needle etc, all the mitigating circumstances I could think of, but he had no choice but to give me a fixed penalty notice.
Now this was over 6 months ago.
I decide I don't want points for this bullshit run of the mill type offence. For totalling purposes I have 0 points, but I got 3 points in 97, and another 3 in 2000 (well I got a fixed penalty) but never returned my license, so wasn't stamped. I never got any reminder either.
When I went to the police station to give my documents for inspection, I told the clerk, I'm not surrendering my license because I don't want points, I'd rather deal with it throught the courts and see if I can get it scrapped. He said ok.
About a year ago I got caught at 58 mph in a 50 where everyone else never does less than 70, it was a handheld device I got caught by, not a fixed camera. I wrote to the police and told them this is bullshit. I told the police that they should be sending me a letter of commendation for driving with such restraint when nobody else on this road does the oppoisite (this was in my MX-5). The police took no further action, so I never took points for that.
My aim is to not take points for my S2000 incident either. A magistrates court hearing letter was sent to me with a summons about my means. Well I forgot about the whole thing, and never turned up. The following day I remembered, and thought "shit". Now I might take an even bigger fine and may be more points.
However I have yet to play my ace card!
The court hearing/summons letter, was sent to my correct address, but my surname was spelt wrongly - badly wrong. All the documents in the envelope had the wrong spelling for my name. On the yellow speeding Fixed Penalty Notice, the officer who got me did spell my name correct, but all court correspondence had the wrong name.
I phoned a barrister friend of mine, and he said the thing to do is to go to the court and ask to speak to the 'Clerk of the Court', and tell him/her, that the person listed in the summons does not live at this address, and to please send out another summons addressed to the correct person.
I'm not sure I should do this, because now that the whole thing has gone on for over 6 months, won't the whole thing get scrapped?
I have heard if you don't get points within 6 months they can't get you after that.
I would have thought the next stage would be a strongly worded letter imposing fines and costs for not showing at the magistrates hearing.
Then I'll write back and say this person doesn't live here, which is why I never showed. Then surely the whole thing will get lost in the bureacratic machinery of the UK public services and I won't have to take these bullshit points.
Do you think I'm correct it this prediction? And what about this 6 month period after which they can't touch you, is this correct? I'd like people to say what I should do now to maximise my chance of getting away clean!
I have another complication as well. I have the old type paper license. When I got points in 97 I returned the license and it was stamped with the 3 points. In 2000 when I got a fixed penalty, I just paid it, but forgot to return my license. I never got any reminders so my license never got stamped with a further 3 points. For totalling purposes it would be at zero now anyway. I would prefer not to return my license for new points because they might say you never returned your license in 2000 when you got a speeding fine, bad boy have some more points.
I want to enjoy the 6000 - 9000 rev range of my S2000 in peace, without being bugged by all this shit.
I was driving my new S2000 in a 30 zone, well in my opinion it was not obviously a 30 zone, it was built up on one side, but there was a big field on the other side, and on the built up side the houses were not right next to the pavement.
I was doing 47 mph. In an S2000 you don't get a trend indication of speed like with an analogue speed needle, you just see numbers on a backlit LCD display, with the main emphasis on the tacho graph.
I got pulled over. I didn't give the officer any attitude problem, I explained I've just bought the car a few days ago, I'm getting used to it and trying to be careful, but on this occasion I made a mistake with my speed. The officer asked if I new what speed I was doing. I told him precisely '47' which he seemed to appreciate, rather than a vague answer like 40+ or 45. 47 was only my momentary peak speak, and it was less than 45 most of the time the gatso was monitoring me.
The officer admired my car and asked some technical questions about it, which I answered. He then said, I'm gonna put it down as 45, not 47. I said thanks. I said I was picking up a relative from the hospital after an operation (which is true and I can prove it), and it's a new car, getting used to it, no speedo needle etc, all the mitigating circumstances I could think of, but he had no choice but to give me a fixed penalty notice.
Now this was over 6 months ago.
I decide I don't want points for this bullshit run of the mill type offence. For totalling purposes I have 0 points, but I got 3 points in 97, and another 3 in 2000 (well I got a fixed penalty) but never returned my license, so wasn't stamped. I never got any reminder either.
When I went to the police station to give my documents for inspection, I told the clerk, I'm not surrendering my license because I don't want points, I'd rather deal with it throught the courts and see if I can get it scrapped. He said ok.
About a year ago I got caught at 58 mph in a 50 where everyone else never does less than 70, it was a handheld device I got caught by, not a fixed camera. I wrote to the police and told them this is bullshit. I told the police that they should be sending me a letter of commendation for driving with such restraint when nobody else on this road does the oppoisite (this was in my MX-5). The police took no further action, so I never took points for that.
My aim is to not take points for my S2000 incident either. A magistrates court hearing letter was sent to me with a summons about my means. Well I forgot about the whole thing, and never turned up. The following day I remembered, and thought "shit". Now I might take an even bigger fine and may be more points.
However I have yet to play my ace card!
The court hearing/summons letter, was sent to my correct address, but my surname was spelt wrongly - badly wrong. All the documents in the envelope had the wrong spelling for my name. On the yellow speeding Fixed Penalty Notice, the officer who got me did spell my name correct, but all court correspondence had the wrong name.
I phoned a barrister friend of mine, and he said the thing to do is to go to the court and ask to speak to the 'Clerk of the Court', and tell him/her, that the person listed in the summons does not live at this address, and to please send out another summons addressed to the correct person.
I'm not sure I should do this, because now that the whole thing has gone on for over 6 months, won't the whole thing get scrapped?
I have heard if you don't get points within 6 months they can't get you after that.
I would have thought the next stage would be a strongly worded letter imposing fines and costs for not showing at the magistrates hearing.
Then I'll write back and say this person doesn't live here, which is why I never showed. Then surely the whole thing will get lost in the bureacratic machinery of the UK public services and I won't have to take these bullshit points.
Do you think I'm correct it this prediction? And what about this 6 month period after which they can't touch you, is this correct? I'd like people to say what I should do now to maximise my chance of getting away clean!
I have another complication as well. I have the old type paper license. When I got points in 97 I returned the license and it was stamped with the 3 points. In 2000 when I got a fixed penalty, I just paid it, but forgot to return my license. I never got any reminders so my license never got stamped with a further 3 points. For totalling purposes it would be at zero now anyway. I would prefer not to return my license for new points because they might say you never returned your license in 2000 when you got a speeding fine, bad boy have some more points.
I want to enjoy the 6000 - 9000 rev range of my S2000 in peace, without being bugged by all this shit.
Very interesting and a great illustration of why you must always fight every case. In my opinion you are always better trying to fight the fixed penalty than the cop who stopped you. After all he can stand up in court and identify you the camera is just a revenue machine. So when the morons come on here with "just cough up" etc then you know what to say. If you have gone 6 months since getting the nip at the scene then I believe you are in the clear provided they have not notified you of a court date. If they have and you did not attend then they have 3 years to persue you. IIRC
Thanks for your reply.
Well technically speaking they did not notify me within 6 months of the alleged incident, because they sent a letter for the court hearing to a person who is not me.
This is why I'm not keen on going to the court and ask them for a new summons with my name spelt correctly.
If I had remembered to go to court, or atleast send in a written representation I may have won, because I am good with letters, but with 45 in 30 the chances were probably slim.
It's a good thing then I forgot about it, because now I'm gonna get away clean, cause they never told me about the court hearing.
Well technically speaking they did not notify me within 6 months of the alleged incident, because they sent a letter for the court hearing to a person who is not me.
This is why I'm not keen on going to the court and ask them for a new summons with my name spelt correctly.
If I had remembered to go to court, or atleast send in a written representation I may have won, because I am good with letters, but with 45 in 30 the chances were probably slim.
It's a good thing then I forgot about it, because now I'm gonna get away clean, cause they never told me about the court hearing.
The CPS have six months from the date of the alleged offence to lay the information with the magistrates court, so even if it takes more than 6 months for you to get to court, so long as the information was placed before that point, then you have little defence, except for 'abuse of process'. Not applicable here methinks.
Secondly, the incorrect spelling may not be fatal to the CPS case against you. It evidently arrived at your house, albeit addressed incorrectly.
If the CPS dig their heels in then you could be up against it I feel.
Secondly, the incorrect spelling may not be fatal to the CPS case against you. It evidently arrived at your house, albeit addressed incorrectly.
If the CPS dig their heels in then you could be up against it I feel.
mx5s2k said:HC103 comments that The 30 mph limit applies to all traffic on all roads in England and Wales ... with street lighting unless signs show otherwise.
I was driving my new S2000 in a 30 zone, well in my opinion it was not obviously a 30 zone, it was built up on one side, but there was a big field on the other side, and on the built up side the houses were not right next to the pavement.
It's the presence of street lighting (coupled with the absence of speed limit signs) that makes it a 30 limit, not the presence of properties or their closeness to the road.
Direction 11 of TSRGD, paragraph (4), states:
(4) The [speed limit roundel] ... shall not be placed along —
(a) a road on which there is provided a system of carriageway lighting furnished by lamps lit by electricity placed not more than 183 metres apart in England and Wales or not more than 185 metres apart in Scotland and which is subject to a speed limit of 30mph;
Hope this helps correct any misunderstandings.
Streaky
Ok so I might not get away with it then if as you say the CPS dig their heals in?
I guess it will be up to their discretion and how the the bureacracy works out. They might forget!
Remember all large IT systems in the UK are shit -masterpieces of disastrous software engineering.
How did they forget about reminding me to return my license to get it stamped with 3 points in 2000?
I hope they forget anyway.
I guess it will be up to their discretion and how the the bureacracy works out. They might forget!
Remember all large IT systems in the UK are shit -masterpieces of disastrous software engineering.
How did they forget about reminding me to return my license to get it stamped with 3 points in 2000?
I hope they forget anyway.
Well the 'incident' happened in late September, and in late February they finally got round to sending the summons, so I guess they did it within 6 months, which is too damn efficient for the public sector!
I rang the clerk of the court, to give my reasons why I didn't show for the court hearing."....well you see, I didn't think it was me, cause that's not my name..."
Now they are going to have to relist the case for later this month. This will give me a chance to produce a damning written representation against these pests.
I am going to check this pepipoo website that someone told me about, it looks like a good resource for this kind of thing.
I rang the clerk of the court, to give my reasons why I didn't show for the court hearing."....well you see, I didn't think it was me, cause that's not my name..."
Now they are going to have to relist the case for later this month. This will give me a chance to produce a damning written representation against these pests.
I am going to check this pepipoo website that someone told me about, it looks like a good resource for this kind of thing.
Just popped in to add a couple of points.
1. Defects in informations/summons can be amended and in the case of name, where defendant wrongly named, held under Dring v Mann [1948], Allan v Wiseman [1975] amendment can be made without making proceedings void.
But the name of a different person cannot be substituted.
2. Anybody in receipt of a summons can check when the information is laid as that point is stated on the summons.
DVD
>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Wednesday 13th April 13:08
1. Defects in informations/summons can be amended and in the case of name, where defendant wrongly named, held under Dring v Mann [1948], Allan v Wiseman [1975] amendment can be made without making proceedings void.
But the name of a different person cannot be substituted.
2. Anybody in receipt of a summons can check when the information is laid as that point is stated on the summons.
DVD
>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Wednesday 13th April 13:08
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