FF prices

[R8Reece]

Mattjevans said:

Not really true. Any “market” is established by willing buyers and willing sellers, and market prices are simply the data points of those trades. Just because auctions are more visible doesn’t mean they set the market. Though obviously in an illiquid market like FF’s, 3 auction trades can make up half of the recent discoverable price data.

Where can you see/find out the final selling price for cars sold at dealers?

[Van Dessel]

The guys on here are sharp MattJevans and have spotted some good details. Another find was the bizarre bleaching of the calipers on this £90k deal on Collecting Cars a year ago: https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/2015-ferrari-f...

If you go to picture 16 and blow it up max you can see not only errant cabling but bizarre discolouration on all 4 callipers. Either some detailer used the wrong product/abrasive pad, or would require a bit of investigation on any brake work carried out. The right front (pic 19) really looks bad. If I had inspected the car I don't know what the seller would have to say to me to explain it and give me comfort that there are no further lurking issues...

It's still a handsome spec and I hope the owner is enjoying it. Great buy.

[Mattjevans]

R8Reece said:

Where can you see/find out the final selling price for cars sold at dealers?

From the buyers, generally.

[R8Reece]

Mattjevans said:

R8Reece said:

Where can you see/find out the final selling price for cars sold at dealers?

From the buyers, generally.

QED

[Mattjevans]

So I enquired after a car with a little over 25,000 miles at a main dealer. After a couple of emails where they semi-deftly avoided answering, I finally got this answer on the discs. Suffice to say, I won't be proceeding without knowing the weights and/or a big price adjustment...

"In terms of the brake disc wear, our system is unable to correctly calibrate it. On the Vehicle Health Check, they show 91 & 87% worn, which we believe is incorrect. The system that measures them isn’t calibrated correctly to monitor and measure accurately, however this is the third car which has had this issue. We are in the process of weighing them, sending the readings off to Ferrari which will then go back to Brembo to give us an accurate wear. We have looked at, driven the car and assessed them in detail and they perform as they should, however we do not have exact numbers right now. "

[Mattjevans]

In a follow up email, he's suggested that I proceed now and they can check the numbers later...

Planet Sales, I guess

[ANOpax]

Mattjevans said:

In a follow up email, he's suggested that I proceed now and they can check the numbers later...

Planet Sales, I guess

If it's a car you like with a unique spec then you could always reserve it with a refundable deposit subject to disc wear coming back okay. Obviously, weighing them is the ultimate arbiter of remaining life but a visual inspection can tell you whether they are knackered or not.

If it's a Ferrari Approved car, it should have brake pad and disc life above certain minimums too.

What have they said about the pad life and number of pad changes? You'd generally expect a set of discs to last around 70-90k miles unless tracked. The general guideline is that you'll get through three sets of pads in that time. If the car is only on its first set of pads, that would be a pretty good indication that the discs are still in good condition. Given the mileage, my guess would be that the rears are on their second set of pads and the fronts are due a change if they haven't been changed already.

[Mattjevans]

It's not a unique spec though it is nice enough that if it wasn't for the brakes I'd put a deposit down. The pads are at 35/40% so definitely not the first set. Seems to be that they are relying on some poor buyer not knowing that the discs that are meant to last 100k, probably won't, and getting hit with a nasty bill.

I had another email from them, apparently "The car will stay at [asking price] unless the market dictates a price increase"

oooh-kay then.

[jw673]

Mattjevans said:

It's not a unique spec though it is nice enough that if it wasn't for the brakes I'd put a deposit down. The pads are at 35/40% so definitely not the first set. Seems to be that they are relying on some poor buyer not knowing that the discs that are meant to last 100k, probably won't, and getting hit with a nasty bill.

I had another email from them, apparently "The car will stay at [asking price] unless the market dictates a price increase"

oooh-kay then.

Notes from another, similar mileage, FF:

Dealer said:

It had the most recent service 4 months and 1000 miles ago. It has since been back to Ferrari for an inspection in order to ensure the car is ready for its new home. The inspection found that the Carbon Ceramic Brakes were at the end of their life as is often the case on FF’s with this sort of mileage covered. The FF’s computer system records brake wear and can be accessed by Ferrari Diagnostic Systems. Unfortunately, visual inspection is sadly not sufficient to determine their condition, weighing them is the only accurate way. All 4 ceramic discs and pads have been replaced by Ferrari for brand new

All four corners of new discs and pads on an FF - ~£12K?

George29's experience of a (apparently) post-Ferrari Power Warranty inspection FF (albeit it wasn't retailed by a Ferrari dealer):

George29 said:

Front brake pads delaminating from the backing plate; oil cooler hoses and nuts split on both sides; slight radiator leak; track rod threads completely stripped; auxiliary drive belt was worn through on 4 of the 6 ribs; a broken parking sensor and a fair few other bits and pieces. All in around £7k worth of work to get it 100% sorted.

As the car was supplied with the Ferrari power warranty it went to a Ferrari dealership to have a pre-warranty inspection

Maybe sometimes when "inspecting" items that aren't covered by the warranty ("wear and tear") they don a sleep mask to cover their eyes. Then post-inspection poking eye holes in said mask before handing it to the salesman to wear whilst sending emails or talking on the phone:

Mattjevans said:

So I enquired after a car with a little over 25,000 miles at a main dealer. After a couple of emails where they semi-deftly avoided answering, I finally got this answer on the discs.

[Mattjevans]

I’d concluded that for any car I get seriously interested in it needs a Ferrari report done specifically for me, prior to closing on it. None of this rubbish about “you can’t see the report for GDPR”. That’s bks.

[Van Dessel]

Mattjevans said:

I had another email from them, apparently "The car will stay at [asking price] unless the market dictates a price increase"

That's just pure gamesmanship and wishful thinking. It's depressing to read how untransparent and evasive these so-called "sales" people are. This is exactly why I've been put off until now.

It's a conflict of interest to have a pre-sale bill of health produced by the service center of the same dealership selling it. Of course they're going to under-report issues. Industry needs something better.

I remember reading "the Grapes of Wrath" in English lit class and the part where they put sawdust in car transmissions to make them sound quieter and smoother to make the sale. So little seems to have changes in 90 years...

[Mattjevans]

The car sales industry generally seems to be in a sorry state. I’ve had one good dealing in my last 5 cars. I thought things were improving but my recent interactions suggest it’s not. Perhaps it’s just desperation.

I know dealers would have us think the “market is on fire”, but I’ve seen instagram posts of vehicles “sold and delivered” that are still in stock lists 2 weeks later. I guess this is SOR baiting in order to get sellers to put cars to them.

[NomduJour]

Sales is sales, they just wear more expensive watches higher up the chain.

[Mattjevans]

NomduJour said:

Sales is sales, they just wear more expensive watches higher up the chain.

Maybe - as I’ve got more senior in my career, obviously you come to know that all business is sales. But if I went about my business the way some of these guys do, I certainly wouldn’t be in the market for a Ferrari.

[jw673]

~£90K 43K miles 2012 FF at Amari

Dealer said:

Full Ferrari Service History - including a recent service at Ferrari Wilmslow less than 1000miles ago

£35K in maintenance costs over 5K miles:

Dealer said:

over £35,000 spent on maintenance with Ferrari Wilmslow in the last 5000miles, this included having all 4 Ceramic discs and pads replaced and all 4 shock absorbers being replaced as well as numerous other parts

[George29]

jw673 said:

George29's experience of a (apparently) post-Ferrari Power Warranty inspection FF (albeit it wasn't retailed by a Ferrari dealer):

George29 said:

Front brake pads delaminating from the backing plate; oil cooler hoses and nuts split on both sides; slight radiator leak; track rod threads completely stripped; auxiliary drive belt was worn through on 4 of the 6 ribs; a broken parking sensor and a fair few other bits and pieces. All in around £7k worth of work to get it 100% sorted.

As the car was supplied with the Ferrari power warranty it went to a Ferrari dealership to have a pre-warranty inspection

Maybe sometimes when "inspecting" items that aren't covered by the warranty ("wear and tear") they don a sleep mask to cover their eyes. Then post-inspection poking eye holes in said mask before handing it to the salesman to wear whilst sending emails or talking on the phone:

Just thought i'd give an update on the car after this reference.

The dealer (from Swadlincote - make a note to avoid him at all costs!), had the car inspected by Ferrari Birmingham prior to our purchase. Firstly the aforementioned dealer tried to fob me off with a Warrantywise warranty despite verbally agreeing to Ferrari Power Warranty. Anyway long story short I got the Ferrari warranty.

And it was a bloody good job too. As the PTU (front gearbox thing) on the car has just broken, thankfully covered by the warranty. However I have had just about enough of the car and now looking to reject it through the finance company.

As mentioned above I had no end of problems with the car despite it being inspected. The supplying dealer refuses to give me the pre-inspection report, and the Ferrari dealer can't give it to me due to GDPR... make sure you get a copy of it before purchasing anything!

FYI the front pads are around £970 fitted so i think you should be able to negotiate these off the price!

[catfood12]

Sorry to hear of your ongoing issues George. You car has clearly had a hard life/neglect. As you know yours was the ex-Ferrari demo car, I put pictures of your car on the other thread when I saw it at Goodwood back in 2012, and noted the chassis number when I went out buying as I guessed it's had more than it's fair share of enthusiastic journalists at the wheel.

There are good cars and bad cars. I'm sorry that your experience has been of the latter, and has no doubt put you off what is a great car. Good luck with the finance company.

[21ATS]

For future reference if anyone has PTU failure on an FF, Furlonger Cars have a fix for circa £8K.

A lot more palatable than the main dealer prices if out of warranty.

[ANOpax]

21ATS said:

For future reference if anyone has PTU failure on an FF, Furlonger Cars have a fix for circa £8K.

A lot more palatable than the main dealer prices if out of warranty.

SSAutotech also have fix for similar money. The Furlonger and SSAutotech fixes address the fundamental failure mode in slightly different ways so do your homework before deciding which one to opt for if you’re unlucky enough to have a PTU failure. The U.K. is blessed to have two viable options to fix what would otherwise be an expensive problem.

[Mattjevans]

Overdue pics of my new one