Discussion
So...I'm still looking get back into Porsche ownership, however an interesting point was raised a few weeks ago by a Lotus dealer in this area who has a number of 996's for sale also.
I would desperately love to get into a late model, manual 993C2S (heritage, looks, air cooled etc etc) but this dealer suggested that a 993, even a late model car would be expensive to run / maintain, and start to require expensive maintenance (top end rebuild) at 80-90k.
As I cover around 14-16k miles per year, he suggested (as you would when you have a couple for sale !) a 996 - citing it would be cheaper to maintain, offer lower mileage, better residuals in 2 to 3 years time, and generally cope better than a 993.
However, I'm not taken with the looks of the 996 or the water cooled engine, and just feel that if I go down that path, I would still long for a 993. But then a 996 may offer cheaper motoring overall....
Any opinions from the Collective, or owners who have experienced both marques ?
I would desperately love to get into a late model, manual 993C2S (heritage, looks, air cooled etc etc) but this dealer suggested that a 993, even a late model car would be expensive to run / maintain, and start to require expensive maintenance (top end rebuild) at 80-90k.
As I cover around 14-16k miles per year, he suggested (as you would when you have a couple for sale !) a 996 - citing it would be cheaper to maintain, offer lower mileage, better residuals in 2 to 3 years time, and generally cope better than a 993.
However, I'm not taken with the looks of the 996 or the water cooled engine, and just feel that if I go down that path, I would still long for a 993. But then a 996 may offer cheaper motoring overall....
Any opinions from the Collective, or owners who have experienced both marques ?
no experience of either marque (except borrowed briefly or the odd test drive) but I too think he's talking B****cks.
observations:
993 prices have bottomed out, residual values are good, go to any website and you'll find 993s in good nick commanding as much or more than early 996. Furthermore the "last of the aircooled" epithet will continue to favour the 993 whilst there is nothing similar to recommend the 996 (no offence to 996 owners - I remain jealous)
996 have not bottomed out, values will continue to fall as the 997 comes in. 993 values have done all the dropping theyre going to because of a new model, 996 have not
993 requires top end rebuild at 80-90K - why?? he is confusing with early 964 which had a design flaw and DID need top-end rebuilds at that mileage. If there were massive failures in 993s at this mileage then believe me this would be reported ad nauseam on pistonheads. it isnt.
dare I mention RMS??? whilst the 993 has very few design flaws, the 996 does!
You should buy the car you like, after a good test drive. Why everyone keeps bashing on about residuals escapes me. these are fantastic, fun cars, but they are expensive! if you can afford to buy one, good luck to you but please, dont whinge about how much youve lost. its the price you've chosen to pay for the fun you are having.
I think your lotus friend is spinning you a huge yarn. If youre gonna buy a car from him, I'd get it thoroughly inspected first!
ps after re-reading your post its quite clear you want a 993, and you dont really like the 996 that mcuh. if you can afford a 993 or 996 then you have proved yourself sufficiently adept at life to generate the income demanded. why are you listening to a shiny suited lotus boy?!
>> Edited by softinthehead on Tuesday 24th May 21:05
observations:
993 prices have bottomed out, residual values are good, go to any website and you'll find 993s in good nick commanding as much or more than early 996. Furthermore the "last of the aircooled" epithet will continue to favour the 993 whilst there is nothing similar to recommend the 996 (no offence to 996 owners - I remain jealous)
996 have not bottomed out, values will continue to fall as the 997 comes in. 993 values have done all the dropping theyre going to because of a new model, 996 have not
993 requires top end rebuild at 80-90K - why?? he is confusing with early 964 which had a design flaw and DID need top-end rebuilds at that mileage. If there were massive failures in 993s at this mileage then believe me this would be reported ad nauseam on pistonheads. it isnt.
dare I mention RMS??? whilst the 993 has very few design flaws, the 996 does!
You should buy the car you like, after a good test drive. Why everyone keeps bashing on about residuals escapes me. these are fantastic, fun cars, but they are expensive! if you can afford to buy one, good luck to you but please, dont whinge about how much youve lost. its the price you've chosen to pay for the fun you are having.
I think your lotus friend is spinning you a huge yarn. If youre gonna buy a car from him, I'd get it thoroughly inspected first!
ps after re-reading your post its quite clear you want a 993, and you dont really like the 996 that mcuh. if you can afford a 993 or 996 then you have proved yourself sufficiently adept at life to generate the income demanded. why are you listening to a shiny suited lotus boy?!
>> Edited by softinthehead on Tuesday 24th May 21:05
Ah The Great Dilemma Air or water?
I read all the mags and the forums and thought, oh yes, purist 993 for me! After trying both (many of them) and deciding what I wanted to drive every day I went for a 996.
The 993 is raw fun, but a bit wearing after a long drive, the 996 is faster, more competent, nicer interior, air con that works etc.
But thats just me and my choice.
Why do you not want a water cooled car Is it the lack of noise? Is it another rational reason?
Try driving both types and see what tickles your fancy.
Both wil cost more than average for petrol, insurance, servicing & maintenance, tyres etc. but it is a supercar, not a shopping hack.
Have fun choosing.
Koenig
I read all the mags and the forums and thought, oh yes, purist 993 for me! After trying both (many of them) and deciding what I wanted to drive every day I went for a 996.
The 993 is raw fun, but a bit wearing after a long drive, the 996 is faster, more competent, nicer interior, air con that works etc.
But thats just me and my choice.
Why do you not want a water cooled car Is it the lack of noise? Is it another rational reason?
Try driving both types and see what tickles your fancy.
Both wil cost more than average for petrol, insurance, servicing & maintenance, tyres etc. but it is a supercar, not a shopping hack.
Have fun choosing.
Koenig
Thanks chaps - excellent replies.
Why am I listening to shiny suited Lotus boys ? Because they service my shiny Exige S2...
Just time to move away from Lotus - and should never have sold my 964 two years ago....
If I can drive the Exige everyday, then I figure I can use even a GT3 everyday ! The costs of keeping the Exige on the road aren't cheap - tyres especially, but at least my fuel bill is lighter.
However, I miss the Porsche. I miss that air-cooled noise and adventure. The querky oil gauge on the dash that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't (well....was like that on the 964 !), and all the other silly things that only a 911 has.
I appreciate that either a 993 or 996 come with bigger than "normal" bills, but I don't want to be hit, after 18 months of ownership, with a huge bill to fix a shed load of oil leaks, clutch, dual-mass fly wheel etc etc etc - the reason I sold my 964.
My heart say 993. Every time.
But my wallet may say something else.....
Why am I listening to shiny suited Lotus boys ? Because they service my shiny Exige S2...
Just time to move away from Lotus - and should never have sold my 964 two years ago....
If I can drive the Exige everyday, then I figure I can use even a GT3 everyday ! The costs of keeping the Exige on the road aren't cheap - tyres especially, but at least my fuel bill is lighter.
However, I miss the Porsche. I miss that air-cooled noise and adventure. The querky oil gauge on the dash that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't (well....was like that on the 964 !), and all the other silly things that only a 911 has.
I appreciate that either a 993 or 996 come with bigger than "normal" bills, but I don't want to be hit, after 18 months of ownership, with a huge bill to fix a shed load of oil leaks, clutch, dual-mass fly wheel etc etc etc - the reason I sold my 964.
My heart say 993. Every time.
But my wallet may say something else.....
No offence to anyone else, but i am going to speak my mind now and so if you don't like what i am about to say, i'm sorry.
Your Lotus chap was talking crap.
A 993 will NOT be more expensive to run than a 996.
Top end rebuild? Okay, there are plenty of 993's running around with way over 120k miles, most not having had top end rebuild and they still run like clockwork. How many 996's do you see with high mileages? How many do you hear about having had engine failures?
My 993's (all three of them) have been cheap as chips to run. 12k service from my highly reputable independant costs around £200, and 24k service around £400. C4S, C2, and now TT, very little difference.
Tyres? C2, all four around 10 to 12k miles. C4S or TT (on 18's), rears at 6k miles and fronts at 12k miles.
Depreciation of almost any 993 at this stage will be less than almost any 996, so that means the 993 will cost less long term. Add the maintenance factor and again the 993 will cost less. And look at the build quality on a 993 and look at the build quality on a 996. Now tell me that the 996 is going to handle daily use better than a 993...
At the end of the day, if you prefer the 996 then buy one, if you prefer the 993 then buy one, but don't for a second think that your wallet will be happier with a 996, because in 90% of cases that simply isn't the case.
End of sermon/rant.
VS
Your Lotus chap was talking crap.
A 993 will NOT be more expensive to run than a 996.
Top end rebuild? Okay, there are plenty of 993's running around with way over 120k miles, most not having had top end rebuild and they still run like clockwork. How many 996's do you see with high mileages? How many do you hear about having had engine failures?
My 993's (all three of them) have been cheap as chips to run. 12k service from my highly reputable independant costs around £200, and 24k service around £400. C4S, C2, and now TT, very little difference.
Tyres? C2, all four around 10 to 12k miles. C4S or TT (on 18's), rears at 6k miles and fronts at 12k miles.
Depreciation of almost any 993 at this stage will be less than almost any 996, so that means the 993 will cost less long term. Add the maintenance factor and again the 993 will cost less. And look at the build quality on a 993 and look at the build quality on a 996. Now tell me that the 996 is going to handle daily use better than a 993...
At the end of the day, if you prefer the 996 then buy one, if you prefer the 993 then buy one, but don't for a second think that your wallet will be happier with a 996, because in 90% of cases that simply isn't the case.
End of sermon/rant.
VS
los angeles said:
Last of the air-cooled 993s. The 996 was a necessary progression, but driving characteristics aside, they were built to a price and show it in the way thinner gauge metal was used - watch those dings and dents appear as if by magic - and the interior turned a nasty plastic. (Porsche plastic is superior to most others, of course.) It's not for nothing the new 911 reverted to the old lithe shape. And for the reasons already stated on this thread, 993s are holding their value, one of the best reasons to choose a specific model car.
Interesting point about the thinner-gauge metal of a 996 in comparison to a 993. I had a 3 series BMW before I saw the light and the Beemer was covered in dings and dents up and down from car-parks, not so the Porker. In 9 months, not a single such dent has appeared. You can't put that all down to people appreciating the Marque...
Agree that the Lotus guy is talking out of his flue.
I saw this question and answer recently from the motoring section of The Daily Telegraph; it's "Honest John" the Trader / Journalist giving the answer:"
Question: I am concerned that the 320bhp engine fitted to the current Porsche 911 (996 and 997 models) has inherent problems. My first 996 (bought in 2001) needed a new engine after 20,000 miles and the replacement had to be stripped down twice within 6,000 miles because oil was seeping between the block and the transmission. Last year I traded it for an August 2003 996 4S, but the oil leaks started again. The car's warranty expires in August and I could face huge repair bills. How do you suggest I proceed?
D.C., Bad Hindelang
Answer Sell the car and buy a 993 or a 996 GT3. The standard 996 and 997 have wet-sump, water-cooled engines that suffer from oil surge when cornering. That's why I recommend the air-cooled, dry-sump 993 rather than a 996. Dealers are well aware of the situation and prices of late 993s are much higher than those of early 996s.
I saw this question and answer recently from the motoring section of The Daily Telegraph; it's "Honest John" the Trader / Journalist giving the answer:"
Question: I am concerned that the 320bhp engine fitted to the current Porsche 911 (996 and 997 models) has inherent problems. My first 996 (bought in 2001) needed a new engine after 20,000 miles and the replacement had to be stripped down twice within 6,000 miles because oil was seeping between the block and the transmission. Last year I traded it for an August 2003 996 4S, but the oil leaks started again. The car's warranty expires in August and I could face huge repair bills. How do you suggest I proceed?
D.C., Bad Hindelang
Answer Sell the car and buy a 993 or a 996 GT3. The standard 996 and 997 have wet-sump, water-cooled engines that suffer from oil surge when cornering. That's why I recommend the air-cooled, dry-sump 993 rather than a 996. Dealers are well aware of the situation and prices of late 993s are much higher than those of early 996s.
halfpenny43 said:
- and should never have sold my 964 two years ago....
Well doesn't this say exactly what you feel?
After all, there's no point spending a load of money on any Porsche unless it makes you feel good. If you would still have your old car then it's got to be 993, every time. I've had 3 and maintenance has been straightforward. The only expensive issues were one destroyed gearbox (incredibly rare and covered under warranty) and when I had to replace all brake discs and pads and a new clutch at the same service. I don't think that consumable costs are that much in excess of any car with equivalent performance.
Note that all my cars were bought used, and all had decent mileages - the youngest had 45k when bought and the highest was in the 80s. None have burned oil or been low on compression so I don't buy the 'top-end rebuild' issue at all.
However, if in an ideal world you want a car that's a blend of a 964 and a BMW M3 then the 996 will be spot on. It was designed to be more acceptable to a wider driver market and will be the better daily driver. The fact you moved from a 964 to a Lotus seems to indicate this isn't top on your list!
Definitely try both, ideally for a couple of days each. This forum can occasionally look like a 993 fan club so you'll get the usual suspects recommending them.
los angeles said:
Last of the air-cooled 993s. The 996 was a necessary progression, but driving characteristics aside, they were built to a price and show it in the way thinner gauge metal was used - watch those dings and dents appear as if by magic - and the interior turned a nasty plastic. (Porsche plastic is superior to most others, of course.) It's not for nothing the new 911 reverted to the old lithe shape. And for the reasons already stated on this thread, 993s are holding their value, one of the best reasons to choose a specific model car.
Gareth
I think you'll find the thinner gauge may not have been cost cutting - th ecar sare more rigid & safer, but to keep weight down they use thinner metal for the 'cosmetic' panels. I like both 993 and 996, but 996 is an engineering improvement and the cars weighs about the same.
halfpenny43 said:
Cheers all for your replies.
To be honest, my heart normally always rules my head anyway, and I will now hang on to the Exige whilst looking for the "right" 993 - C2S hopefully (although if I can save a bit more and go Turbo 4.....)
Now you have sorted that out.,,try the different 993 models....if you want the wide body look...the C4S or Turbo are the ones to go for...the C2S is heavier and less responsive than a regular C2 and doesn't have the decent anchors fitted to the other 2 widebody version...2S does look nice and you can make it into a great car with a few modifications (last bit especially for MauriceC2S)
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