Could an Electric Motor Mimic an IC Engine?
Discussion
As per the title, these days we can simulate many things with electronics pretty effectively.
For example you can fly an airliner, anywhere in the world with amazing scenery, in VR with a good degree of accuracy. They are getting close to creating "Meat" than doesnt come from an animal etc etc.
But was pondering Caterham going electric, am sure an electric Caterham would be fun in its own way but it would be a different experience.
Less noise, less vibration and no changing gear, all three are big parts of the experience as it stands to me.
An electric motor does the same job but as its not creating thousands of small explosions every minute its pretty quiet, as it has only one, well balanced moving part it doesn't create much vibration and due to the power delivery it doesn't need a gearbox.
Sound,
I know sound generators are used on current ICE cars to augment the existing noise and play it through the speakers or a tube into the cabin, some years ago Renault introduced the Clio Renault Sport with some way to change the sound to other models from their back catalog and Milltek have produced a thing for Tesla. They have sounded a bit artificial but do they need to ? I have played loads of fairly recent console and PC games and some of the engine notes are really quite amazing.
Vibration and power delivery, was wondering whether an electric motor, through the electronic control could be used to mimic the power delivery in an ICE version, a bit like how old computers can be emulated perfectly on a more modern device as its superior, has more power and can pretend to be the older one. So could a 300 bhp electric motor simulate for example how a tuned redtop produces power rather than just running as normal, potentially introducing interruption/variation to the current to create some inconsistency ? There could be other strategies for introducing some vibration.
And is there any reason, it you are managing the power output, delivery and revs, why you couldn't plonk a normal six speed manual gearbox on the back of the motor ?
I have read that its the flaws and imperfections that we find compelling and that EV's are "soulless", the soul in an ICE seemingly coming from the imperfections that we enjoy. You could even have a heated pipe on the side to burn your leg on just like the real thing and spray a little petrol, hot oil and exhaust essence through the ventilation, being silly now but I do think with some creativity that EV's dont need to be just ruthlessly efficient, smooth and dull
Yes I know its not real, but its an interesting concept I thought. I know that weight will be an issue but I strongly suspect that will be mitigated over the next few years.
I think that Caterham etc have to tow the line and produce EV's but I suspect there will be a loophole where they sell you an electric kit but its up to you if you put an electric motor in it, depends how stringent the legislations is, if its pretty tight then maybe the above might offer some
Is the above just nonsense or is some of it technically possible, I know some will go its all s
t were doomed, doomed I tell you and love to wallow and its stupid idea but it may be a way to make it more enjoyable. And this is coming so maybe now is the time to get creative ?
For example you can fly an airliner, anywhere in the world with amazing scenery, in VR with a good degree of accuracy. They are getting close to creating "Meat" than doesnt come from an animal etc etc.
But was pondering Caterham going electric, am sure an electric Caterham would be fun in its own way but it would be a different experience.
Less noise, less vibration and no changing gear, all three are big parts of the experience as it stands to me.
An electric motor does the same job but as its not creating thousands of small explosions every minute its pretty quiet, as it has only one, well balanced moving part it doesn't create much vibration and due to the power delivery it doesn't need a gearbox.
Sound,
I know sound generators are used on current ICE cars to augment the existing noise and play it through the speakers or a tube into the cabin, some years ago Renault introduced the Clio Renault Sport with some way to change the sound to other models from their back catalog and Milltek have produced a thing for Tesla. They have sounded a bit artificial but do they need to ? I have played loads of fairly recent console and PC games and some of the engine notes are really quite amazing.
Vibration and power delivery, was wondering whether an electric motor, through the electronic control could be used to mimic the power delivery in an ICE version, a bit like how old computers can be emulated perfectly on a more modern device as its superior, has more power and can pretend to be the older one. So could a 300 bhp electric motor simulate for example how a tuned redtop produces power rather than just running as normal, potentially introducing interruption/variation to the current to create some inconsistency ? There could be other strategies for introducing some vibration.
And is there any reason, it you are managing the power output, delivery and revs, why you couldn't plonk a normal six speed manual gearbox on the back of the motor ?
I have read that its the flaws and imperfections that we find compelling and that EV's are "soulless", the soul in an ICE seemingly coming from the imperfections that we enjoy. You could even have a heated pipe on the side to burn your leg on just like the real thing and spray a little petrol, hot oil and exhaust essence through the ventilation, being silly now but I do think with some creativity that EV's dont need to be just ruthlessly efficient, smooth and dull
Yes I know its not real, but its an interesting concept I thought. I know that weight will be an issue but I strongly suspect that will be mitigated over the next few years.
I think that Caterham etc have to tow the line and produce EV's but I suspect there will be a loophole where they sell you an electric kit but its up to you if you put an electric motor in it, depends how stringent the legislations is, if its pretty tight then maybe the above might offer some
Is the above just nonsense or is some of it technically possible, I know some will go its all s
t were doomed, doomed I tell you and love to wallow and its stupid idea but it may be a way to make it more enjoyable. And this is coming so maybe now is the time to get creative ?Have the rotor very slightly out of balance? The main thing might be the act of changing gears, which is easily fixed by having a gearbox! The torque thing might be a big trickier - some current limiting so as to restrict the torque lower in the revs to make the motor a bit more "peakier". Peaky being a relative term here!
Automotive Engineers have been working hard for decades to remove as much NVH from cars and their drivetrains, my suggestion is to add some back in where it is appropriate/appreciated.
Not sure why it conjures up thoughts of sitting on sex toys or novelty trains ?
Most stuff we do or drive these days is contrived in some way, it wouldn't even have to mimic an IC engine, just because an electric motor is smooth and doesnt need a gearbox doesnt mean you cant add a gearbox and more in the way of it feeling mechanical.
When CD's first came out they were described as sounding clinical but engineering added in some of the missing dynamism to the sound. Early EV's might just be too refined due to the nature of the electric motor and all the work that has been done over the years to isolate the driver, so beyond acceleration and a nice cabin there is less to savour. To be honest a lot of luxury cars with higher cylinder counts are pretty much as silent as smooth 90 percent of the time as an EV, take a Rolls for example, I bet th change to electric power wont be very noticeable.
Not sure why it conjures up thoughts of sitting on sex toys or novelty trains ?
Most stuff we do or drive these days is contrived in some way, it wouldn't even have to mimic an IC engine, just because an electric motor is smooth and doesnt need a gearbox doesnt mean you cant add a gearbox and more in the way of it feeling mechanical.
When CD's first came out they were described as sounding clinical but engineering added in some of the missing dynamism to the sound. Early EV's might just be too refined due to the nature of the electric motor and all the work that has been done over the years to isolate the driver, so beyond acceleration and a nice cabin there is less to savour. To be honest a lot of luxury cars with higher cylinder counts are pretty much as silent as smooth 90 percent of the time as an EV, take a Rolls for example, I bet th change to electric power wont be very noticeable.
gazza285 said:
I do not want to sit on a vibrator while speakers make make brum brum noises.
Oh I don’t know - some people pay good money for that! https://motorbunny.com/ (NSFW)I discussed this with a couple of friends / colleagues and think it is feasible to map the torque response of an electric motor to mimic that of an internal combustion engine The upside of a motor is 100% torque at 0rpm with fairly linear response thereafter. The character in an internal combusion engine comes not just from the noise but the available torque at varying speeds. If the available torque is mapped you could theoretically have a range of behaviours on one installation from large slow-revving diesel engine to flat-plane V8 and anything in between.
I think the key to this would be to modulate the field excitation so that the magnetic field strenght changes in relation to rotational speed.
There is no reason not to use a smaller electric motor and couple it via a clutch to a conventional transmission.
I think the key to this would be to modulate the field excitation so that the magnetic field strenght changes in relation to rotational speed.
There is no reason not to use a smaller electric motor and couple it via a clutch to a conventional transmission.
Aunty Pasty said:
I don't see any reason why a gearbox cannot be added to an electric drivetrain. I guess it's not needed with EVs due to the flat torque curve. For vibration you can just add a spinning mass on a rotor in a similar manner to the rumble in console controllers.
What would be the point though? Gearboxes, whether nice ones or horrible ones, are there as a work-around to the deficiencies of the ICE engine.An electric motor doesn't have the same deficiencies, so doesn't need the gearbox. Maybe a 2-speed gearbox to enable it to get to 150mph+ but that's hardly going to make the thing any more interactive.
Swapping your EV from 3rd into 2nd on the approach to a bend as you might in an MX-5 is all just a bit pointless when the thing's got more torque than the tyres can handle even in 4th.
kambites said:
Yes you could cripple and over-complicate an EV to make it like behave very much like an ICE car. 
Yes, but that's the point, if folk derive pleasure from the limitations of ICE, there is plenty of scope to add them back in. Don't think EV's need to sound like Tron and be completely smooth, fine if it is a Big posh thing, but stuff like Caterhams might not hit the spot being that refined and also, not sure if massive torque from 0 rpm is actually ideal in something small, light and RWD ?
Even if they dont mimic an IC slavishly, I would imagine they can provide more feedback and interaction.
Its still very early days with EV's.
SpeckledJim said:
What would be the point though? Gearboxes, whether nice ones or horrible ones, are there as a work-around to the deficiencies of the ICE engine.
An electric motor doesn't have the same deficiencies, so doesn't need the gearbox. Maybe a 2-speed gearbox to enable it to get to 150mph+ but that's hardly going to make the thing any more interactive.
Swapping your EV from 3rd into 2nd on the approach to a bend as you might in an MX-5 is all just a bit pointless when the thing's got more torque than the tyres can handle even in 4th.
Well that's it, there isn't really a sensible reason to do so. A gearbox would be additional weight, cost and another thing to maintain and potentially break. The whole thread is about how an Ev can mimic and IC. The whole gearbox experience can probably be simulated programatically I suppose with control units modulating the motor behaviour and any artificial sound you want to generate.An electric motor doesn't have the same deficiencies, so doesn't need the gearbox. Maybe a 2-speed gearbox to enable it to get to 150mph+ but that's hardly going to make the thing any more interactive.
Swapping your EV from 3rd into 2nd on the approach to a bend as you might in an MX-5 is all just a bit pointless when the thing's got more torque than the tyres can handle even in 4th.
kambites said:
Yes you could cripple and over-complicate an EV to make it like behave very much like an ICE car.
Many modern ICE cars have their power delivery 'crippled' or managed by computers at present - either in the interest of avoiding damage to the drivetrain or to make them driveable in lower gears. People generally seem to be accepting of artificially produced/enhanced sound, drive by wire throttles (and even brakes), and electronic diffs rather than viscous ones.
If we are happy with that then this is little different.
I wonder whether coupling a say 6 speed gearbox would be an option for an EV - both as a way of mimicking the manual shift but also as a way to allow a less powerful (smaller/lighter) electric motor to be fitted. I can think of many reasons why this is not done - complexity, packaging, weight of a gearbox, unnecessary etc - but in a niche, lightweight, driver focused car perhaps this could work?
My opinion:
This is by no means a given, but if storage tech advances to the point where they can be made as light or (be still my beating heart) lighter than current ICE cars then I think electric drivetrains will enable the building of the best driver's cars we've ever seen. And I mean 'best' as in most engaging and rewarding, not just 'fastest'.
Very few manufacturers will be aiming for that (just as very few do now) but some will, and I think the flexibility offered by the EV drivetrain will give them new ways to enhance the driving experience we've never experienced before.
This is by no means a given, but if storage tech advances to the point where they can be made as light or (be still my beating heart) lighter than current ICE cars then I think electric drivetrains will enable the building of the best driver's cars we've ever seen. And I mean 'best' as in most engaging and rewarding, not just 'fastest'.
Very few manufacturers will be aiming for that (just as very few do now) but some will, and I think the flexibility offered by the EV drivetrain will give them new ways to enhance the driving experience we've never experienced before.
Aunty Pasty said:
SpeckledJim said:
What would be the point though? Gearboxes, whether nice ones or horrible ones, are there as a work-around to the deficiencies of the ICE engine.
An electric motor doesn't have the same deficiencies, so doesn't need the gearbox. Maybe a 2-speed gearbox to enable it to get to 150mph+ but that's hardly going to make the thing any more interactive.
Swapping your EV from 3rd into 2nd on the approach to a bend as you might in an MX-5 is all just a bit pointless when the thing's got more torque than the tyres can handle even in 4th.
Well that's it, there isn't really a sensible reason to do so. A gearbox would be additional weight, cost and another thing to maintain and potentially break. The whole thread is about how an Ev can mimic and IC. The whole gearbox experience can probably be simulated programatically I suppose with control units modulating the motor behaviour and any artificial sound you want to generate.An electric motor doesn't have the same deficiencies, so doesn't need the gearbox. Maybe a 2-speed gearbox to enable it to get to 150mph+ but that's hardly going to make the thing any more interactive.
Swapping your EV from 3rd into 2nd on the approach to a bend as you might in an MX-5 is all just a bit pointless when the thing's got more torque than the tyres can handle even in 4th.
Like 'the new Bentley has a feature that blasts chilly air at you all the time, whether you like it or not, to accurately emulate the 'dawn of motoring' experience.'
Now I'd much rather have a 1929 Bentley than a 2021 Bentley, but that's not to say I want the new one to pretend to be the old one.
EVs are/will be 'soulless'. But they'll also be superior in most non-emotional ways. Not to mention miles faster in a straight line, and via all-wheel torque-vectoring, miles faster in the corners too.
to an extent with the use with synthetic noise
many classic ev conversions mate an electric motor to the original manual box
in theory you could 'map' the revs and torque of the electic motor to approx simulate that of an ICE engine, set min and max engine rev, set a max torque curve for the revs
many classic ev conversions mate an electric motor to the original manual box
in theory you could 'map' the revs and torque of the electic motor to approx simulate that of an ICE engine, set min and max engine rev, set a max torque curve for the revs
Edited by Dave Hedgehog on Friday 14th May 10:47
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