RE: Porsche invests £57m in eFuel producer
Wednesday 6th April 2022
Porsche invests £57m in eFuel producer
Make no mistake: if Porsche can one day help to keep you in combustion-engined cars, it will
The closer 2030 gets, the more you're going to hear about synthetic petrol. It is fast becoming the mechanical yin to electrification's yang. Formula 1 has already said it's targeting a '100 per cent sustainable fuel' by the middle of this decade. We talked about Prodrive's 'ECOpower' substitute not so long ago. But it is arguably Porsche which is putting its shoulder into the technology. And its money, too.
The manufacturer has just confirmed that it will invest $75m (£57m) in HIF Global LLC in return for a 'long-term stake' in the Santiago de Chile-based firm. The outlay is not just about R&D speculation either - the company in question is responsible for building the Haru Oni eFuel pilot plant, which, in partnership with Siemens Energy and ExxonMobil, is expected to begin the industrial production of 130,000 litres of eFuel from hydrogen and CO2 later this year. If successful, capacity will then be expanded in two stages to around 55 million litres by 2024, and around 550 million litres by 2026.
While Porsche is not alone in participating in the latest round of international financing - in time, synthetic fuel will likely prove crucial to the future of aviation and shipping, too, making it an obvious avenue for venture capital - plainly it sees considerable value not just in the eventual exploitation of the end product, but also in acquiring a stake in the method of its mass production (traditionally the sticking point of getting CO2-neutral fuel into your petrol tank).
"We see ourselves as pioneers in eFuels and want to drive the technology. This is one building block in our clear, overall sustainability strategy," said Michael Steiner, the board member for R&D at Porsche. The firm has been researching the use of renewable fuel for some time, and plans to use the first eFuel from Chile to power is flagship motorsport projects. In the future, it modestly reckons it might also be used to power combustion engines during initial fuelling at the factory, and at Porsche Experience Centres. But it's safe to assume that the manufacturer's internal end-game target is substantially more ambitious than that.
Discussion
We're not going to see synthetic fuel replacing oil-derived fuel at the pumps for everyday use - this will never be an alternative to electrification of personal cars, it's just not cost effective.
Basic physics means it'll always be cheaper to put electricity straight in your car than it is to convert it to something else and transport it halfway around the world before use.
This is for motorsport and those remaining forms of transport which can't transition to electric. For Porshe it protects the heritage cars and motorsport but after that it's all greenwash IMO.
Basic physics means it'll always be cheaper to put electricity straight in your car than it is to convert it to something else and transport it halfway around the world before use.
This is for motorsport and those remaining forms of transport which can't transition to electric. For Porshe it protects the heritage cars and motorsport but after that it's all greenwash IMO.
article said:
the Haru Oni eFuel pilot plant, which, in partnership with Siemens Energy and ExxonMobil, is expected to begin the industrial production of 130,000 litres of eFuel from hydrogen and CO2 later this year.
What? Where are they getting the H2 and CO2 from? Even stupider than burning H2 in an ICE is converting it to a liquid fuel and burning it in an ICE.......giveitfish said:
We're not going to see synthetic fuel replacing oil-derived fuel at the pumps for everyday use - this will never be an alternative to electrification of personal cars, it's just not cost effective.
Basic physics means it'll always be cheaper to put electricity straight in your car than it is to convert it to something else and transport it halfway around the world before use.
This is for motorsport and those remaining forms of transport which can't transition to electric. For Porshe it protects the heritage cars and motorsport but after that it's all greenwash IMO.
Spot on. Porsche must think their customers are thick as mince. The investment into HIF is VW who wash it through their most polluting brand for PR. That brand has already said it's going full EV for cars. Basic physics means it'll always be cheaper to put electricity straight in your car than it is to convert it to something else and transport it halfway around the world before use.
This is for motorsport and those remaining forms of transport which can't transition to electric. For Porshe it protects the heritage cars and motorsport but after that it's all greenwash IMO.
These fuels are hugely expensive and small in volume. They aren't destined for cars but for high spend activities such as motorsport and high tax transport where batteries don't work such as aviation.
Even then, the HIF project is diverting a small potential volume as Siemens and Enel have already pre sold production to energy firms as HIF is all about using hydrogen as a battery to transport cheap developing nation electricity to high cost, high tax developed nations.
VW's true interest and why it has invested a very small amount in the multi billion project is to secure first run at the carbon credits that will be produced when the hydrogen docks in Italy and is instantly converted back to electricity. VW is an immensely polluting European business that can only meet 2059 net zero by purchasing vast amounts of credits. They desperately need the credits that HIF will produce.
Fantastic news, we have got to start somewhere, and somebody has to do all the research and put up the initial investment.
As I have said many times before do you think big oil is just going to pack up and creep away with their collective tail between their legs -- no way.
If it becomes very promising watch out for Greta and the ecoloons making mischief.
As I have said many times before do you think big oil is just going to pack up and creep away with their collective tail between their legs -- no way.
If it becomes very promising watch out for Greta and the ecoloons making mischief.
Personally, I hope this is a means by which i can keep a couple of ICE toys going in a sustainable way into the future, even if it means ordering barrels online and getting them delivered.
I also wonder how small these processes can be made. I love the idea that I could have a 'domestic' sized unit in the back garden, producing a few litres a week, sucking carbon from the atmosphere, water from the ditch, and running on solar panels.
At large scale, the electrical demands of e-fuel seem to write them off, but it would be interesting if microgeneration could make it more viable for more people, even if only for leisure purposes.
I also wonder how small these processes can be made. I love the idea that I could have a 'domestic' sized unit in the back garden, producing a few litres a week, sucking carbon from the atmosphere, water from the ditch, and running on solar panels.
At large scale, the electrical demands of e-fuel seem to write them off, but it would be interesting if microgeneration could make it more viable for more people, even if only for leisure purposes.
Fantastic news,
Big things come from small steps.
Note that this could use all the existing infrastructure the world already has. It has a desperate market in aviation and more importantly shipping. Synth fuels are a great step. Clearly more growth needed but the concept must be proven first and its going the right way.
I note Harry metcalfe is using Synth fuel in his Arctic Rolls. £3 a litre from a company making it in small amounts early on. Really don't think that's a bad starting point! Higher production and efficiency usually means cheaper to produce.
All promising stuff!
Big things come from small steps.
Note that this could use all the existing infrastructure the world already has. It has a desperate market in aviation and more importantly shipping. Synth fuels are a great step. Clearly more growth needed but the concept must be proven first and its going the right way.
I note Harry metcalfe is using Synth fuel in his Arctic Rolls. £3 a litre from a company making it in small amounts early on. Really don't think that's a bad starting point! Higher production and efficiency usually means cheaper to produce.
All promising stuff!
kambites said:
It might have a place for motorsport
The problem is that to "decarbonise" motorsport is nothing to do with changing the fuel that the actual racing cars run on,and EVERYTHING to do with making the teams and development of those cars zero impact!For example, whilst an F1 car driving on a race week may indeed use nearly 1,000 litres of petrol and therefore release some 2.3 tonnes of CO2 into the environment, shipping the team to the race, developing the car, and that teams employees simply driving to work have released thousands of times that amount.
IMO, for motorsport, let the cars run on fossil fuels (there is plenty left for this purpose) and make the Team net zero.......
Good for Motorsports and Classics I guess. The tone of this article is silly - they’ve electrified essentially the whole saloon offering, about to do 718 and Macan. I can see them trying this in something like a GT product but the rest is all electric for good. You’d have to be criminally stupid to think BEV is some sort of Plan B for Porsche with e-fuels front and centre. With the models above it’s probably £3bn for electrification plays maybe £100m for this
FaustF said:
I note Harry metcalfe is using Synth fuel in his Arctic Rolls. £3 a litre from a company making it in small amounts early on. Really don't think that's a bad starting point! Higher production and efficiency usually means cheaper to produce.
All promising stuff!
Really? I had no idea e-fuel was available anywhere. Do you know what company it is? At £3 a litre I'd be tempted to run my Camaro and MX-5 on it, especially if it meant keeping ethanol away from them.All promising stuff!
Max_Torque said:
article said:
the Haru Oni eFuel pilot plant, which, in partnership with Siemens Energy and ExxonMobil, is expected to begin the industrial production of 130,000 litres of eFuel from hydrogen and CO2 later this year.
What? Where are they getting the H2 and CO2 from? Even stupider than burning H2 in an ICE is converting it to a liquid fuel and burning it in an ICE.......First green hydrogen from HIF is 2025/6 with shippable volumes due 2030 of the commercials are proven.
The reason Enel are backing Siemens is that Siemens build hydrogen power stations and Enel run them. They were the partners last decade who built the first and only and now defunct hydrogen power station in Europe.
VW are front running the carbon credit production via a very long dated deliverable futures trade. Meanwhile, Siemens, Enel and the real backers are aiming to run an enormous and hugely profitable electricity arbitrage trade.
But if you want hydrogen today you need to extract it from fossil fuels and the same with the carbon. 'Carbon Capture' is the spin that suggests that there is some means to extract CO2 from the atmosphere (even the Canadian company that's been touted that for years has run out of Canadian mug investors and is seeking to rinse the Scottish tax payer with one of their white elephants) but obviously, you get your carbon from fossil fuels as that the only viable source.
The project itself will struggle given that next year you won't be able to import coal to Germany for anything other than govt sanctioned use in domestic generation as they've just committed to not buying any more Russian coal so are f
ked. And I think that pre lock down we had hit 55bn litres of transport fuel in the U.K.
NDNDNDND said:
FaustF said:
I note Harry metcalfe is using Synth fuel in his Arctic Rolls. £3 a litre from a company making it in small amounts early on. Really don't think that's a bad starting point! Higher production and efficiency usually means cheaper to produce.
All promising stuff!
Really? I had no idea e-fuel was available anywhere. Do you know what company it is? At £3 a litre I'd be tempted to run my Camaro and MX-5 on it, especially if it meant keeping ethanol away from them.All promising stuff!
He might discover that the mystery 'blend' is mostly bio ethanol with the rest being Fischer–Tropsch c4-c12 production, possibly from biomass (not really being done yet and has no viable audit trail so think Findus Lasagna) or more normally, fossil fuels like brown coal.
Even the bio element has that problem that no U.K. farmer or environmentalist would sanction single crop farming or deforestation.
Or maybe Paddy Lowe with his Ltd that doesn't have more than £1 in it will suddenly appear with some magical fuel?
whp1983 said:
Which is a lie. Firstly, HIF won't even start testing until 2025.
And viable atmospheric carbon capture doesn't exist.
Here's a clue for Porsche, if you could capture carbon from the atmosphere then you wouldn't need eFuels would you? The whole CO2 in the atmosphere problem would have been solved!!!
Like I said, VW think everyone is thick as mince.
The last time the Porsche PR department issued some tripe about how they were somehow a key player in HIF and were capturing carbon and were going to save the internal combustion engine, the same PR department a week later announced Porsche was converting their entire line up to EV.
So, if Porsche are going to be making synthetic C4-C12 before 2030 they need to come clean as to where they are getting the raw ingredients from.
Oh, and given the slight problem that Germany faces coming off Russian coal and gas dependency and the need to keep the lights and heating on for their people, does anyone honestly think a company of the profile of VW is going to be allowed for one minute to draw the electricity required to make some special petrol for race cars just to earn some PR points and a bit of green washing? Of course not. They'll be among the first to have their electricity rationed as set out in law.
DonkeyApple said:
Which is a lie.
Firstly, HIF won't even start testing until 2025.
And viable atmospheric carbon capture doesn't exist.
Here's a clue for Porsche, if you could capture carbon from the atmosphere then you wouldn't need eFuels would you? The whole CO2 in the atmosphere problem would have been solved!!!
Like I said, VW think everyone is thick as mince.
The last time the Porsche PR department issued some tripe about how they were somehow a key player in HIF and were capturing carbon and were going to save the internal combustion engine, the same PR department a week later announced Porsche was converting their entire line up to EV.
So, if Porsche are going to be making synthetic C4-C12 before 2030 they need to come clean as to where they are getting the raw ingredients from.
And how they will be able to develop engines to use it that have zero tailpipe emissions?Firstly, HIF won't even start testing until 2025.
And viable atmospheric carbon capture doesn't exist.
Here's a clue for Porsche, if you could capture carbon from the atmosphere then you wouldn't need eFuels would you? The whole CO2 in the atmosphere problem would have been solved!!!
Like I said, VW think everyone is thick as mince.
The last time the Porsche PR department issued some tripe about how they were somehow a key player in HIF and were capturing carbon and were going to save the internal combustion engine, the same PR department a week later announced Porsche was converting their entire line up to EV.
So, if Porsche are going to be making synthetic C4-C12 before 2030 they need to come clean as to where they are getting the raw ingredients from.
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